What weapons do you bring to an Orlanthi feast?

[Bren]

I'm hoping to summon the collective wisdom of the group.

Tomorrow night, the players characters are to attend a feast in Clearwine hosted by Queen Leika Black Spear. I know the player of the Humakti will want a sword, but is that culturally acceptable or is it unacceptable?

1. What would be expected as far as carrying weapons ?
2. Does this vary based on the rank of the guest or attendee?
3. Is it different for a guest vs. a fellow clan/tribe member?
4. Would the protocol be the same for something hosted by a clan chieftain?
5. What if the host is someone less exalted, e.g., a a thane, steadholder, or simple farmer?

[Bill the barbarian]

I am thinking a noble could carry a sword or a religious GodTalker would carry ceremonial weapons as would Thanes and guards. 

27 minutes ago, Bren said:

• Would the protocol be the same for something hosted by a clan chieftain

I think so... depends on other circumstances of course.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Bren said:

I'm hoping to summon the collective wisdom of the group.

Tomorrow night, the players characters are to attend a feast in Clearwine hosted by Queen Leika Black Spear. I know the player of the Humakti will want a sword, but is that culturally acceptable or is it unacceptable?

Jeff commented on a related question quite recently, though in the slightly different case of a public space in tribal land.  So in that case, short answer is yes, but not routinely armed and armoured to the teeth.  I'd guess the "hosting a feast" case is similar, except that courtesy presumably involves acceding to the reasonable wishes of the particular steadholder... to a point.

 

1 hour ago, Bren said:

Does this vary based on the rank of the guest or attendee?

Apparently so, though I'm unclear if there's a formal set of "rules" for this, or it's more like a matter of ostentatious display.  I, a rich farmer, have this fine sword with a fancy pommel, and I note you, a raggedy-arsed hunter, arrived with much more basic-looking weaponry.

1 hour ago, Bren said:

Is it different for a guest vs. a fellow clan/tribe member?

I think in theory almost necessarily, in that you don't "Greet" people from your own clan in the same way (and in a fairly formalised manner for people in the same tribe).  Your kin are definitely entitled and expected to be armed on your -- and hence their -- own tula.  I practice I'm not sure if there's a customary difference:  the Greeting rather anticipates people remaining armed, given the ritual undertaking not to attack one's hosts.

1 hour ago, Bren said:

Would the protocol be the same for something hosted by a clan chieftain?

What if the host is someone less exalted, e.g., a a thane, steadholder, or simple farmer?

In principle much the same, but the status of the host obviously has a big practical effect of who they can invite, who'd actually come if they did, and what they can practically insist on guests doing, if they were to do so.  If the simple farmer is Poor, or a renter (I assume those are strongly correlated,, if maybe not quite synonymous), presumably it's their patron that's officially hosting, so calls any shots there is to be called.  (I'm not sure if it's canonically common for hunters, sheep-herders, etc, that might logically live away from the main agricultural area to have their own modest "holdings" direct from the chief (or Earth temple, etc), rather than from some richer Free Farmer type.)

[Bren]

Thanks! 😃 Those comments were Very helpful and the link was a bonus. I was in two minds about whether sidearms e.g. swords or no sidearms/swords would be allowed. I think the Humakti's greatsword will not automatically be allowed.

[French Desperate WindChild]

in addition, I would say bring what show your status, not what could be seen as an intent

 

if it is weapon, weapon

if it is armor, armor

if it is a pet, a pet

 

for example, in my perception

a free sartarite will come with his weapon as every sartarite is a warrior. but if your weapon is a poor stick, don't come with it.

a noble or rich warrior, will show how wonderful is his armor (so much gold, silver, crystals, etc...) when a mercernary will not show his too used armor

a poor citizen will not  come with a ugly street dog when a champion will come with this so powerful lion he succeed to tame

 

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Bren said:

I think the Humakti's greatsword will not automatically be allowed.

Or conversely, maybe that's a special-case exception.  Then:-

• You don't need to tell the Humakti "no greatsword!"; and
• Everyone else has a convenient visual signal of who the Humakti is. 🙂

... not like it's generally hard to tell.

[soltakss]

On 11/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, Bren said:

Tomorrow night, the players characters are to attend a feast in Clearwine hosted by Queen Leika Black Spear. I know the player of the Humakti will want a sword, but is that culturally acceptable or is it unacceptable?

Yes, I think a sword is acceptable.

On 11/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, Bren said:

What would be expected as far as carrying weapons ?

Anything reasonable and inoffensive.

On 11/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, Bren said:

Does this vary based on the rank of the guest or attendee?

Maybe. Clan Champions are probably expected to carry weapons wherever they go, for example.

On 11/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, Bren said:

Is it different for a guest vs. a fellow clan/tribe member?

Probably not.

I would expect a rule to be followed,. so everyone must stow their weapons, or everyone can carry one weapon.

On 11/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, Bren said:

Would the protocol be the same for something hosted by a clan chieftain?

No, I think it doesn't matter who hosts the feast.

On 11/27/2021 at 3:22 AM, Bren said:

What if the host is someone less exalted, e.g., a a thane, steadholder, or simple farmer?

The only difference there is "Can they enforce the rules?", so a clan Chieftain might be able to force Adventurers to leave their weapons at the door, but Bob the Steadman might not be able to make them do that.

 

 

[Jeff]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:22 PM, Bren said:

I'm hoping to summon the collective wisdom of the group.

Tomorrow night, the players characters are to attend a feast in Clearwine hosted by Queen Leika Black Spear. I know the player of the Humakti will want a sword, but is that culturally acceptable or is it unacceptable?

1. What would be expected as far as carrying weapons ?
2. Does this vary based on the rank of the guest or attendee?
3. Is it different for a guest vs. a fellow clan/tribe member?
4. Would the protocol be the same for something hosted by a clan chieftain?
5. What if the host is someone less exalted, e.g., a a thane, steadholder, or simple farmer?

At a Colymar feast, it would be perfectly acceptable for a Humakt initiate or any free member of the tribe to bring a sword. Guests typically are granted the same rights under the rules of hospitality.

[Alex]

32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The only difference there is "Can they enforce the rules?", so a clan Chieftain might be able to force Adventurers to leave their weapons at the door, but Bob the Steadman might not be able to make them do that.

I dunno quite how the boundaries between "general clan property" and "property granted to a steadholder" work, both physically and in terms of particular rights.  But on the face of it, if Bob forbids entrance to his dwelling to armed individuals (from his own clan or not), and they forced their way inside anyway, that seems like a gross breach of hospitality.  OTOH in terms of social, economic and political leverage, no doubt this is the case in general terms.

[Bill the barbarian]

23 minutes ago, Alex said:

I dunno quite how the boundaries between "general clan property" and "property granted to a steadholder" work, both physically and in terms of particular rights.  But on the face of it, if Bob forbids entrance to his dwelling to armed individuals (from his own clan or not), and they forced their way inside anyway, that seems like a gross breach of hospitality.  OTOH in terms of social, economic and political leverage, no doubt this is the case in general terms.

There is the rub, you do not own property. The clan or really the cults (earth only?) own it. The rights of hospitality you have are just that... not the rights of a landowner

ETA
 I believe that is the right to stand on your stead’s meeting place in a nightshirt yelling “Get Off My Lawn!”, but please do not quote me.

50 minutes ago, Jeff said:

At a Colymar feast, it would be perfectly acceptable for a Humakt initiate or any free member of the tribe to bring a sword. Guests typically are granted the same rights under the rules of hospitality.

Thanks. I boot that up a level in my game, as I said above, but it is nice to get a game ruling on that.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Alex]

23 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

There is the rub, you do not own property. The clan or really the cults (earth only?) own it. The rights of hospitality you have are just that... not the rights of a landowner

Probably wends its way back to an Earth cult in all cases -- or at least "All" cases -- if not a whole series of them.  But the immediate granter is likely generally your clan itself, either in the office of the chief, or of the clan earth priestess/Inner Ring member.  Simplest likely case, the tribal, City or kingdom Earth template considers itself to have Ernalda the Queen's sovereignty over their portion of the land, they grant clan-sized parcels out it out, generally in line with long-established tradition and practice until there's some great ruction that requires changes to such, then the officers of the clan grant rights to it in turn to steadholders.  Make that more complex to taste with additional intermediates on either end if there's Story or just Lore Fun (it's a mostly harmless vice!) in it for you.

So if your chief (or the like) turns up in person, your position to keep him out is...  weak.  Very weak.  As a steadholder your rights extend not just to your Big House but to the surrounding farmland, etc.  But they're the rights to use those.  It's not like you have to issue and respond to the Greeting to your cousins when they cross from their stead's pasturelands to yours -- that'd be ridonculous.  OTOH, I don't think you can just wander into someone else's home and start snacking on cheese and carrots out of their food store with no by-your-leave either.  "Mrrmmm, nice.  What about some fresh bread to go with, huh-huh?  Any danger of some stew?!"  Conversely, if you kin need to be fed, and you refuse, it'd be great shame on your -- or the sign of great inter-bloodline pettiness, at the least.  So it's not a Soviet Collectivised Farm, but it's not suburban picket fences either.

[Bill the barbarian]

14 minutes ago, Alex said:

So if your chief (or the like) turns up in person, your position to keep him out is...  weak.  Very weak.  As a steadholder your rights extend not just to your Big House but to the surrounding farmland, etc.  But they're the rights to use those.  It's not like you have to issue and respond to the Greeting to your cousins when they cross from their stead's pasturelands to yours -- that'd be ridonculous.  OTOH, I don't think you can just wander into someone else's home and start snacking on cheese and carrots out of their food store with no by-your-leave either.  "Mrrmmm, nice.  What about some fresh bread to go with, huh-huh?  Any danger of some stew?!"  Conversely, if you kin need to be fed, and you refuse, it'd be great shame on your -- or the sign of great inter-bloodline pettiness, at the least.  So it's not a Soviet Collectivised Farm, but it's not suburban picket fences either.

Yes. that is why there is are codified and quite static Laws of Hospitality. We as players and GMs may not know them all or very well but the inhabitants of Sartar know them and their variations quite well and some will stand or die on such Laws.

[Alex]

17 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes. that is why there is are codified and quite static Laws of Hospitality. We as players and GMs may not know them all or very well but the inhabitants of Sartar know them and their variations quite well and some will stand or die on such Laws.

I think it's a good deal less codified at clan level, which is less Legal Procedural Drama, and more Extended Family Soap Opera.  If you want to complain about the chief turning up uninvited and acting like a boor (to take the extreme case), who do you complain to?  Though to steal another Dunham line, "a wise chief would not," at least when it comes to narking off too many people...  or the wrong ones.

[Bill the barbarian]

Nitpicking much?

Let’s stop this and not ruin a perfectly good thread

Edited November 28, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Bren]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:02 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

in addition, I would say bring what show your status, not what could be seen as an intent

 

if it is weapon, weapon

if it is armor, armor

if it is a pet, a pet

 

for example, in my perception

a free sartarite will come with his weapon as every sartarite is a warrior. but if your weapon is a poor stick, don't come with it.

a noble or rich warrior, will show how wonderful is his armor (so much gold, silver, crystals, etc...) when a mercernary will not show his too used armor

a poor citizen will not  come with a ugly street dog when a champion will come with this so powerful lion he succeed to tame

[/quote]This reminded me of a passage in The Lord of the Rings. The guards to Theoden's Hall tell Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf that they aren't allowed to carry weapons inside to see the king. Each in turn (and I think in the order I listed) declares the provenance of his weapons.

The guards still don't allow them to enter with their weapons, but the guards are clearly impressed by Anduril etc. When they get to Gandalf he says something like, Surely you won't deny an old man his staff to lean on. He is allowed to enter with his staff.

 

[Alex]

40 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Nitpicking much?

Let’s stop this and not ruin a perfectly good thread

Huh.  Your preferred level of detail will vary, clearly.  I felt I was speaking directly to the topic.

[RHW]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:59 PM, Bren said:

Thanks! 😃 Those comments were Very helpful and the link was a bonus. I was in two minds about whether sidearms e.g. swords or no sidearms/swords would be allowed. I think the Humakti's greatsword will not automatically be allowed.

If you invite the Humakti, you invite the Humakti's greatsword. It's his plus one.

[Alex]

36 minutes ago, RHW said:

If you invite the Humakti, you invite the Humakti's greatsword. It's his plus one.

<cut to montage sequences of Humakti having romantic moments with their sword of choice>

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I recall some older source material for RQ or HQ, where a Humakti was required to have a weapon (perhaps highly ceremonial) with them at all times.  However, my quick search brought up nothing.

Faulty memory?  Or does somebody else remember this?  Thanks!

[soltakss]

On 11/28/2021 at 4:58 PM, Alex said:

I dunno quite how the boundaries between "general clan property" and "property granted to a steadholder" work, both physically and in terms of particular rights.  But on the face of it, if Bob forbids entrance to his dwelling to armed individuals (from his own clan or not), and they forced their way inside anyway, that seems like a gross breach of hospitality.  OTOH in terms of social, economic and political leverage, no doubt this is the case in general terms.

Yes, it is a gross breach of hospitality. But, what will be steadholder do about it? Whinge and moan to his clan chief? Face up to the armed Adventurers and potentially be harmed or bring harm to his family? Spread the word about how rude the Adventurers are? Bring down cult spirits of retribution upon them?

On 11/28/2021 at 5:19 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

There is the rub, you do not own property. The clan or really the cults (earth only?) own it. The rights of hospitality you have are just that... not the rights of a landowner

Your house, your rules.

Very few people are landowners, most hold steads. 

The rules of hospitality surely do not only apply to landowners, they should apply to heads of households.

On 11/28/2021 at 6:33 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes. that is why there is are codified and quite static Laws of Hospitality. We as players and GMs may not know them all or very well but the inhabitants of Sartar know them and their variations quite well and some will stand or die on such Laws.

Unfortunately, not having stated laws of hospitality in the game, and having a difference between clan rules that are known to clansfolk but not to Players, is very unrewarding.

Sure, we can mimic them by using the Culture skill, but  what happens on a Failure? Do you break the rules or just don't know what to do in a certain situation? Fumbles are clearer, they mean that we messed up big time, by eating a date with the right hand and a chicken leg with the left hand, or sneezing and not throwing pepper at the host, or wearing a blue hat and a green coat, what were you thinking?

For me, the general laws of hospitality are well known, but the specific rules that apply to a certain clan, bloodline or stead might not be as well known. In fact, some might keep them secret to annoy, or trap, strangers.

[Jeff]

There really isn't a lot to nitpick here. In general, Orlanth initiates carry arms freely. Why would you require they not display their status and rank?

[Bill the barbarian]

A quick dive back into nitpickery here, alas. soltakss raises good issues which actually do weigh on the question and if we do not volley this back and forth ad anuseum without setting up a new thread I think we are safe. Also I like the points.

29 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yes, it is a gross breach of hospitality. But, what will be steadholder do about it? Whinge and moan to his clan chief? Face up to the armed Adventurers and potentially be harmed or bring harm to his family? Spread the word about how rude the Adventurers are? Bring down cult spirits of retribution upon them?

This was where I was going, you have rights. But do you exercise the rights you have or not. And I do not believe one would have extra rights because he owns the land. Especially seeing as he does not. One might need be good in arms, a good solid legal clan helps, as does knowledge (use imagination here)... but a good clan champion goes a long way...

 

31 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Your house, your rules.

 

Yes, but having the right does not mean you have the might. 

 

32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Unfortunately, not having stated laws of hospitality in the game, and having a difference between clan rules that are known to clansfolk but not to Players, is very unrewarding.

 

Agreed, yet still a few decades on we still lack said rules. This would be a great Splat book, Chaosium... JC contributors...

 

33 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, we can mimic them by using the Culture skill, but  what happens on a Failure?

Of course a GM who is good and knows his table is perfect here.

 

34 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For me, the general laws of hospitality are well known, but the specific rules that apply to a certain clan, bloodline or stead might not be as well known.

This is quite good for two reasons.... 1/ It makes sense and is historically and literarily accurate and 2/ it supplies scenario seeds!

 

35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

There really isn't a lot to nitpick here. In general, Orlanth initiates carry arms freely. Why would you require they not display their status and rank?

Agreed, and excuse my dive back in... originally my only problems with question was knowing where that status and rank began and you answered that. All good. Free and above may carry swords and daggers...

Huzzah! Let’s party! 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

The forms and words of the Heortling Hospitality Ritual are a bit difficult to find on line.  I recently did, and the start of one of our "sagas" includes Argrath's entry into Boldhome, 1627, with a very formal Hospitality Ritual

see:  http://gloranthagame.pbworks.com/w/page/146656524/1627_Fire1

note: Thom Bradisson comes from our campaign.  He is the mayor of Boldhome, and hated by the PCs.

[Bill the barbarian]

The topic has seen the light of day in print a few times, I believe there is a section on hospitality in both the HW series Sartar Rising/and or Thunder Rebels and the HQ series S KoH and SC. 

14 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

see:  http://gloranthagame.pbworks.com/w/page/146656524/1627_Fire1

 

Yes this was form I was mentioning. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Darius West]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:22 PM, Bren said:

I'm hoping to summon the collective wisdom of the group.

Tomorrow night, the players characters are to attend a feast in Clearwine hosted by Queen Leika Black Spear. I know the player of the Humakti will want a sword, but is that culturally acceptable or is it unacceptable?

1. What would be expected as far as carrying weapons ?
2. Does this vary based on the rank of the guest or attendee?
3. Is it different for a guest vs. a fellow clan/tribe member?
4. Would the protocol be the same for something hosted by a clan chieftain?
5. What if the host is someone less exalted, e.g., a a thane, steadholder, or simple farmer?

1. If a feast is thrown, people are supposed to make a show of themselves.  You should wear your best clothes and bring your prettiest weapon.  Humakti will have their "money sword" for such occasions.

2. The feast will likely have guards present who are supposed to keep the peace.  They will have arms and armor on, but will mainly protect the doors and the person throwing the feast.

Everyone is honor-bound to behave civilly by the rules of hospitality.

3. Guests are also expected to dress well and wear their prettiest weapon.

If you front up in stinky hunting skins and carrying a spear, you will likely not gain admittance until you change into something more befitting, unless you have an important message for the Chief or something.

4. Yes, but a chief can command more security.

5.  Likely to have less security.