Just What Does Detect Enemies Work Against?

[Jaque Elle]

It is clear that the RQ Battle Magic spell Detect Enemy will detect sentient self-aware creatures that intend harm to the caster.

But will Detect Enemy reveal a Zombie or Skeleton that has "seen" the caster and is moving to attack them?

And will Detect Enemy reveal a non self-aware creature with animal intelligence that intends to attack the caster, such as wolf, tiger or snake?

Lastly, what of creatures without any intelligence that act purely on instinct, such as a Gorp; will such a creature drawn to the caster to harm them be highlighted by Detect Enemy?

This question would seem to hinge on what it is the Detect Enemy spell is actually using to trigger a positive result - to detect an enemy.  Does the entity need to be able to "know" that they wish to harm the caster for the spell to pick them up?  In which case, you could exclude Zombies and Skeletons, as well as Gorp; they have no brains and cannot "know" anything.  But can an animal predator be said to "know" that they wish to harm the caster, or are they just acting on instinct - the urge to assuage hunger or to protect their young for example?

The above questions are not "theoretical" but informed by an incident in a scenario of mine that I was recently running (Snakes on a Moonboat).  A chaos snake with the Chaos Feature (goes invisible at will) decided to avoid being killed by the players by - going invisible.  A player decided that they could cast Detect Enemy to reveal where the snake was so they could hit it.

I ruled that Detect Enemy would not work on a snake, as I have always played (call it a House Rule) that the spell only works on sentient self-aware creatures that "know" that they wish to harm the caster.  The players argued the point, and in discussing the incident, it became clear that they thought I was fudging the rules to allow the snake to escape.

I would be grateful for the any views, and (if it exists - and I did try searching) any documented evidence that confirms this one way or another.

Many thanks,

John

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Jaque Elle said:

A chaos snake with the Chaos Feature (goes invisible at will) decided to avoid being killed by the players by - going invisible.  A player decided that they could cast Detect Enemy to reveal where the snake was so they could hit it.

There is another issue, I would say, since the snake is attempting to flee, and does not curerntly wish to harm the player, the spell may not pick it up at all.

[g33k]

Hi @Jaque Elle , and welcome to BRPC!

I think you're asking a question that's squarely in the space of "YGWV" -- Your Glorantha Will Vary.  I don't believe this has an "official" or "canonical" answer... very possibly, intentionally-not.  I think that neither you nor your players are "wrong" (from a rues-as-written POV); instead, I think y'all have hit upon mismatched "reasonable readings" of the rules.

I'm inclined to the more-limited interpretations of the spell...  Detect Enemies is already *incredibly* potent for mere Spirit/Battle magic.

Like you, I think it requires the "enemy" to be intelligent, self-aware.  The lion doesn't see you as an "enemy" -- it sees you as prey.

(edit -- it's probably worth thinking about any other similar issues that might come up, and having an out-of-game conversation with the group to get everyone more on the same page)

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by g33k

[Scotty]

I'm going to post an answer to this over at the Q&A as it's an interesting question:

 

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'm going to post an answer to this over at the Q&A as it's an interesting question.

...  And I see it's opposite to my own answer in almost every regard !

<shrugs>

Well, YGWV !

 

[PhilHibbs]

13 hours ago, Jaque Elle said:

A chaos snake with the Chaos Feature (goes invisible at will) decided to avoid being killed by the players by - going invisible.  A player decided that they could cast Detect Enemy to reveal where the snake was so they could hit it.

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

There is another issue, I would say, since the snake is attempting to flee, and does not currently wish to harm the player, the spell may not pick it up at all.

Well there you're into complex issues of what is intent. I think that the snake still does have hostile intent, even though fear or other self-preserving urges are overriding the urge to strike out. Especially as it's chaotic.

[Alex]

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

There is another issue, I would say, since the snake is attempting to flee, and does not curerntly wish to harm the player, the spell may not pick it up at all.

That seems an easier one, to the second string to the spell's bow, to wit that it: "detects and locates a specific individual on whom the caster concentrates".  So IMO if the PC is using it with the in manner of "WT[Underworld Location] has that [Interjected Gerund] Chaos Snake gone?!" it's clearly covered.  And presumably they would sensibly do so, if IYG a fleeing "enemy" isn't covered by the "intending to harm them" part.

[Godlearner]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well there you're into complex issues of what is intent. I think that the snake still does have hostile intent, even though fear or other self-preserving urges are overriding the urge to strike out. Especially as it's chaotic.

I am assuming that the snake is not Intellegent (it is a possibility since it is Chaotic, but for now lets assume it is not). In this case I would argue that it has no other urges at this moment except self-preservation and therefore would not register on this spell which seems to pick up on intent.

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Alex said:

That seems an easier one, to the second string to the spell's bow, to wit that it: "detects and locates a specific individual on whom the caster concentrates".  So IMO if the PC is using it with the in manner of "WT[Underworld Location] has that [Interjected Gerund] Chaos Snake gone?!" it's clearly covered ...

An excellent -- and entirely pertinent -- point!

[soltakss]

My view is very simple.

Unless the foe has some kind of Detection-Blocking magic, anyone intending harm to you shows up on Detect Enemy.

Those not intending direct harm at that moment, but with a simmering hatred/distaste of you and intending harm at some point is also an enemy.

 

[g33k]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

My view is very simple.

Unless the foe has some kind of Detection-Blocking magic, anyone intending harm to you shows up on Detect Enemy.

Those not intending direct harm at that moment, but with a simmering hatred/distaste of you and intending harm at some point is also an enemy.

There's a big question, though, as to defining "anyone" ...

Is a hungry lion an "anyone"?
What if they're just looking, and kinda wondering if you're good prey?  They don't "intend" anything (yet)... do they not show up?  But if/when they do decide you're prey -- and begin hunting in earnest -- they do "Detect" as "enemies"?  Or is animal-based predation just not an "enemies" situation?

Is a swarm of bees an "anyone?"
If they are attacking you (maybe for disturbing the hive) are they a LOT of "anyone"s?

Is a ghost an "anyone"?  Other spirits?
They aren't even ALIVE!  Similarly to the lion, maybe they don't intend to attack; maybe they are "resting" and not even aware of you... until/unless you do something (disturb a relic, enter a tomb, cross a warding, etc).

Edited December 11, 2021 by g33k
bees

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

There's a big question, though, as to defining "anyone" ...

Anyone who is an enemy.

Seriously, when I am GMing a game, I don't spend more than a second on this kind of thing. Something is an enemy or isn't an enemy.

 

[g33k]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

... I don't spend more than a second on this kind of thing...

So... may I ask for a few seconds of your time?  some yes/no's?

1. Is a hungry lion an enemy if it's looking at you speculatively (but not actually hunting you)?
2. Is a hungry lion an enemy when it IS actually hunting you?
3. Does a swarm of bees -- reacting to a raid on the nest, for example -- count?
4. Does a ghost count?
5. Does an unintelligent elemental count?
6. Does an rockslide count?  (I see an unintelligent elemental as more akin to a rockslide than to an assassin)

TYVM in advance!

[Jaque Elle]

And normally, I wouldn't have spent more than a second on this kind of thing either; I made the judgement - a snake that had been attacking them, but that had (through Chaotic Feature) become invisible and was trying to get away, would not detect as an enemy.

What took the time was the pushback from two players (both of whom have been playing RQ for decades) who thought the spell should have picked up the snake.  To be fair to them both, I do know more "argumentative" players; quite a coincidence they weren't invited to join this particular campaign 😉

Oh well, snakes - why did it have to be snakes?  I guess you have to be prepared for this kind of thing when you try to run a "Snakes on a Moonboat" episode!

[Alex]

On 12/9/2021 at 11:54 PM, Scotty said:

Yes, if it intends to attack the adventurers (living creature)

On 12/9/2021 at 11:54 PM, Scotty said:

It would detect either. The spell doesn't read their mind.

Isn't determining an entity's intent exactly a case of reading their mind?  Or whatever decision-making faculty they're using for that (instinct, clockwork).

[Shiningbrow]

I just posted in the Q&A, but...

What if the "enemy" doesn't know you're there? 

What if it's conditional, like crossing a threshold to a temple before a guardian is alerted?

[Jaque Elle]

This could be the acid test of how the spell works.

If the spell always detects the recipient as being an enemy, then even someone behind a door, completely unaware of the casters presence, will detect as an enemy.

Alternatively, if the spell relies on picking up some kind of instantaneous "intent" from the recipient (such as acting on a personal grudge, a cult antipathy (Orlanth v. a chaot), or perhaps a racial hatred (Troll v. Elf for example)), then it will not work - since there cannot be a "plan" on the part of the recipient to harm the caster if they don't know that they are there.

Just to add some fuel to this discussion, how about this use-case: the recipient of the Detect Enemy spell had been fighting the party the caster is in, but someone else has successfully cast Befuddle on the recipient.  Now, in a Befuddled state, but previously having been intending to harm the Caster, will the recipient still detect as an enemy?

And taking this one step further, could you deliberately Befuddle an ally, and then push them through a Warding - so as to defeat the Warding activating (in a Befuddled state, can the recipient of the spell feel antipathy to anyone (except perhaps the person who just shoved them through the Warding)?

Just having a thoughtful Sunday Morning, savouring a mug of Jamaica Blue Mountain coffee and listening to the new Manics album.

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Is a hungry lion an enemy if it's looking at you speculatively (but not actually hunting you)?

No

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Is a hungry lion an enemy when it IS actually hunting you?

Yes

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Does a swarm of bees -- reacting to a raid on the nest, for example -- count?

Yes

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Does a ghost count?

If it is planning/going to try and harm you, yes, otherwise no

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Does an unintelligent elemental count?

If it is planning/going to try and harm you, yes, otherwise no

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Does an rockslide count?  (I see an unintelligent elemental as more akin to a rockslide than to an assassin)

No, but the person/thing that causes the rockslide would, if it tried to harm you.

All in my own opinion, of course.

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What if the "enemy" doesn't know you're there? 

If it means you harm then it is an enemy and will detect.

One example of this is a bunch of Lunar Soldiers who are searching for your brave Orlanthi Rebel, they don't know you are there but are your enemy.

Another example is a Lunar soldier on guard duty, you are a rebel Orlanthi, so you are their enemy, so the Guard would show up under Detect Enemies.

One example that would not show up is when you see another Orlanthi who doesn't belong to an enemy clan and has no grudge with you, he would not show up on Detect Enemies, but if you then fire an arrow at his companion, then his situation changes and he becomes your enemy.

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What if it's conditional, like crossing a threshold to a temple before a guardian is alerted?

If you are an Orlanthi and cross a Thed temple boundaries, then you are an enemy, regardless of your intentions.

If you are an Orlanthi and cross a Storm Bull temple boundaries, then you are not an enemy, if your intentions are not to cause harm, but are an enemy of you wish to cause harm.

1 hour ago, Jaque Elle said:

If the spell always detects the recipient as being an enemy, then even someone behind a door, completely unaware of the casters presence, will detect as an enemy.

If you are sneaking into someone's home and someone is behind a door, then you are probably their enemy, but they are probably not your enemy. You use Detect Life, or Detect Undead in that case.

If you are attacking a bandit lair and the bandits have sworn to kill you, then they would be an enemy.

1 hour ago, Jaque Elle said:

Alternatively, if the spell relies on picking up some kind of instantaneous "intent" from the recipient (such as acting on a personal grudge, a cult antipathy (Orlanth v. a chaot), or perhaps a racial hatred (Troll v. Elf for example)), then it will not work - since there cannot be a "plan" on the part of the recipient to harm the caster if they don't know that they are there.

If you are an Elf and you cast Detect Enemy near some Trolls, then they will generally show up, unless they have a Passion of Doesn't Hate Elves, or something similar.

1 hour ago, Jaque Elle said:

Just to add some fuel to this discussion, how about this use-case: the recipient of the Detect Enemy spell had been fighting the party the caster is in, but someone else has successfully cast Befuddle on the recipient.  Now, in a Befuddled state, but previously having been intending to harm the Caster, will the recipient still detect as an enemy?

And taking this one step further, could you deliberately Befuddle an ally, and then push them through a Warding - so as to defeat the Warding activating (in a Befuddled state, can the recipient of the spell feel antipathy to anyone (except perhaps the person who just shoved them through the Warding)?

Maybe, but I would always rule on those edge cases during a game.

Again, all in my opinion.

[Scotty]

On 12/12/2021 at 2:21 AM, Alex said:

Isn't determining an entity's intent exactly a case of reading their mind?  Or whatever decision-making faculty they're using for that (instinct, clockwork).

Maybe. As it's a fictional magic system, It could work in any number of fictional ways.

[Alex]

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Maybe. As it's a fictional [--]

Wait, what?  Why was I not informed?! 😄

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

[--] magic system, It could work in any number of fictional ways.

Yes, very true.   It's an issue in any system, obviously, as however crunchy you make a system, or detailed a description, you eventually hit the edge at the end of the road, and you get judgement calls.  Subsequent arguments optional.

This is maybe murkier and fuzzier than most, since it's kinda related to these "who started it" arguments that start in playgroups, and jurists, politicians and philosophers argue about regularly.  Who's "initiated the use of force" in any given situation, and hence who's simply responding to it (by magical detection in this case).

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/9/2021 at 3:29 PM, g33k said:

(edit -- it's probably worth thinking about any other similar issues that might come up, and having an out-of-game conversation with the group to get everyone more on the same page)

 

I have found myself doing this for decades. One can come up with a fiat ruling (and this must happen on occasion) but I trust a group ruling more.

 

On 12/11/2021 at 3:24 PM, soltakss said:

Seriously, when I am GMing a game, I don't spend more than a second on this kind of thing. Something is an enemy or isn't an enemy.

 

As above, during game, no, after...

 

On 12/11/2021 at 3:48 PM, Jaque Elle said:

And normally, I wouldn't have spent more than a second on this kind of thing either; I made the judgement <snip

 

Great!

 

On 12/11/2021 at 3:48 PM, Jaque Elle said:

Oh well, snakes - why did it have to be snakes?  I guess you have to be prepared for this kind of thing when you try to run a "Snakes on a Moonboat" episode!

Totally F’ing missed that f’ing reference... got it now!

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Wait, what?  Why was I not informed?! 😄

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Note to self, update rolodex so we do not miss people when sending out memorandum!

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/9/2021 at 4:38 PM, Scotty said:

I'm going to post an answer to this over at the Q&A as it's an interesting question:

Where did this end up? Can not find it in Q&A which which seems a bit empty nor could I locate it in WoD.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Where did this end up? Can not find it in Q&A which which seems a bit empty nor could I locate it in WoD.

That'd be here, I believe:  

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Totally F’ing missed that f’ing reference... got it now!

There are two references in there, though I suspect one is quite obscure -- and I don't mean the silly movie.

Filk album: Snow Magic has a song Snakes -- a lament by Medusa (or one of the other gorgons)

o/~ Oh snakes (oh snakes)
Why'd it have to be snakes (oh snakes)
They're driving me quite mad
They snap and hiss and writhe and squirm
Even toads wouldn't be as bad o/~  🐍