Argan Argar or Troll Trade Goods

[Squaredeal Sten]

About a year ago i had occasion to make a list of possible Uz trade goods which the Argan Argar cult might have a monopoly on selling to humans.  After all the Argan Argar cult's role is intermediaries and traders for the Uz.

I recently came across an addition to this list:

Lichen and mushroom dyes:  Evidently different lichens can give different colors.  among these is a bright yellow, and also purple-violet shades; more commonly a red-brown, and black.  Here are a few Real World reference links: 

https://www.mycopigments.com/blogs/news/lichen-dyes

https://www.facebook.com/groups/mycopigments/

https://craftinvaders.co.uk/making-dye-from-lichen/

https://www.anbg.gov.au/lichen/lichens-people-dyeing.html

The second one also references mushroom dyes, right up the Uz alley!. 

 

The rest of my list:  it runs to insect and arachnid products:

- spider silk: probably prized for use in ropes, but rare according to the W&E guide, and most non-Uz have never seen more than a spool of this thread or a handkershief-sized piece of silk cloth.

- caterpillar/grub silk, (the RW silk which you may have at home): used for the clothes of nobles, priests, wizards; not the same quality as silk from Kralorela, but there's a regular supply

- beetle/insect shells: some make for good armor (e.g. the famed "helmet" weevils); The W&E guide also refers to pieces of these shells being used for scrimshaw, as well as insect shell shields.  I'd think also scale mail scales.

- shellac, an insect product used for varnish  (shellac is commonly produced in flakes, and dissolved in alcohol for use).  used to protect other decoration on an item, also to treat wood (perhaps furniture, ships, bridge timbers, etc.)

- tree galls: formed by parasitic insects; used to produce ink for the Lhankor Mhy temples (as well as for scribes in general)

- beetle/insect mandibles: may make for decent daggers or small 'saws'

-  bricks of beeswax,

= wood alcohol, ethyl alcohol, both listed in one Trollpack adventure.

-  cochineal powder, another insect based product, makes a red dye.   RW historically there was a big trade in cochineal from South America until the invention of aniline dyes.

- and of course, royal jelly from giant bees, also appearing in Trollpack -  has magical properties -.  (Talk about 'royal goods!')

- then of course there is lead.  Useful for many things -  plumbing until recently; paint base until recently;  sling and other bullets; roofing in sheets; weights; joining stained glass windows; coloring pottery;

- Uz may also sell magic items, as anyone may - giving access to Darkness cult magic; or to plain old spirit magic, as in a Bludgeon matrix.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling and punctuation

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

then of course there is lead.  Useful for many things -  [...] paint base until recently;

Different material, unless you mean use as crayon (the German word for crayon is "lead pencil"). Lead II sulfate is not a metal, but a mineral you can precipitate from more soluble lead salts and sulfate salts. Lead sulfate was used e.g. by Rembrandt in his so-called "Night Watch" painting, where the lead ions  exchanged the Sulfate for Sulfide ions from the egg white used to apply the pigment, making a brightly lit daytime portrait of a militia into a looming night scene. But all of that is real world chemistry, and does not have that close ties to the Darkness Rune.

(Except that sulfide ores are the result of anaerobic = Darkness corrosion, whereas oxidic acid ores are the result of Sea and Storm corrosion. At least in my Glorantha. But the ions that reacted with either of these are not yet metallic.)

[Squaredeal Sten]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Different material, unless you mean use as crayon (the German word for crayon is "lead pencil"). Lead II sulfate is not a metal, but a mineral you can precipitate from more soluble lead salts and sulfate salts. Lead sulfate was used e.g. by Rembrandt in his so-called "Night Watch" painting, where the lead ions  exchanged the Sulfate for Sulfide ions from the egg white used to apply the pigment, making a brightly lit daytime portrait of a militia into a looming night scene. But all of that is real world chemistry, and does not have that close ties to the Darkness Rune.

(Except that sulfide ores are the result of anaerobic = Darkness corrosion, whereas oxidic acid ores are the result of Sea and Storm corrosion. At least in my Glorantha. But the ions that reacted with either of these are not yet metallic.)

I was thinking about lead oxide in paint, actually.   i didn't know about the sulfate, interesting story.  When a piece of lead just sits the oxide will form and be very visible.  I don't know what process is used to make it in industrial quantities.  I was just acknowledging the post-1950s view of lead as poisonous and fearful.   Since I have cast toy soldiers, bullets, and one small weapon, I am not fearful of it.  The trick is not to eat it, and ventilate when casting.  But then I am also less fearful of heavy metal poisoning than most people, having taken arsenic for amoebic dysentery. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
Don't know where the leading "I" went.

[Joerg]

Lead white was also used in cosmetics. In cosmetics, it caused long term poisoning, also in pigments. The Renaissance painter Caravaggio got lead poisoning from his pigments (possibly had the habit to clean his brush between his lips), which caused dementia and phobias (the latter visible in his later work, the former in his criminal record). The lead deposited in his bones was used to identify his mortal remains inside a mass grave (I suppose using one of those nifty portably X-ray resonance spectrometers).

In Glorantha, we know that white face-paint may be used in Esrolia and in Earth temples - there is a picture of Yanioth with white make-up in the rules book. There are other sources for white pigment, including finely ground egg or clam shells, but lead white simply works better to cover any color below.

In the real world, finely ground minerals will also cause problems when the dust settles in the lungs. Miners' notorious bad health stems in part from this. But, given the thread we are in, the uz have the perfect solution for this - send in food trollkin or giant insect larvae capable of boring into sedimentary rock. Any exposure to  stuff unhealthy for humans will serve as seasoning, similar to grazing herd beasts on aromatic herbs before the slaughter.

[Ironwall]

The shear amount of dye the uz would be able to sell is ironic for a color blind race

Edited December 26, 2021 by Ironwall

[Squaredeal Sten]

20 hours ago, Ironwall said:

The shear amount of dye the uz would be able to sell is ironic for a color blind race

But likely an opportunity for the Kitori.

[jajagappa]

On 12/25/2021 at 10:58 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Lichen and mushroom dyes:  Evidently different lichens can give different colors.  among these is a bright yellow, and also purple-violet shades; more commonly a red-brown, and black.

There are also mushrooms that can be used to make ink.  Probably a good trade between Nochet-Shadow Plateau, Jonstown-Dagori Inkarth, and Derensev temple-Troll Woods for this.  This may be a greater source than tree galls.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Speaking of mushrooms, we know the Uz raise a lot of them.  But we have not discussed trade in poisonous, merely edible, medicinal; or "magic' mushrooms or their extracts.  I would think all of these exist in Glorantha. 

A quick search will show RW mushroom product flavorings;  also mushroom product "supplements"', whose health effects may be no less fantasy that Glorantha is.

And if some folks use hazia to discorporate and pursue the spirit plane - how about mushrooms?  If the RW is a clue they wouldn't be addictive as hazia, but there might be a sanity check. 

Anyway all these are possible Uz exports which might pass through the Argan Argar cult's hands.

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling

[Darius West]

On 12/26/2021 at 2:58 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

About a year ago i had occasion to make a list of possible Uz trade goods which the Argan Argar cult might have a monopoly on selling to humans.  After all the Argan Argar cult's role is intermediaries and traders for the Uz.

This is excellent work Sten.  Lichen based dyes hadn't occurred to me as a potential AA export.

I can only think of a few things that didn't make your list that you might want to include...

Mushroom skin based fabrics (MuSkin) https://www.fibre2fashion.com/industry-article/8805/mushroom-leather-is-more-than-a-sustainable-alternative-to-animal-skin.

Parasols (A favorite for the well-to-do in Prax who like to keep Yelm's glare from toasting them as they gallop about the plains)

Dark Glasses fashioned from Obsidian (Useful in high temperature industries, and they look cool)

Black Elf Mushroom Drink (It is specifically mentioned as an item which Waha worshippers love)

Less Lethal Troll Drinks (Trolls make some dangerous drinks, but let's face facts, there is a certain masochistic macho kudos in destroying yourself with potent alcohol that people warn you about, and that would make for a market in some odd trollish beverages).

Sling Bullets (Trolls can munch bolgs into pretty effective sling bullets according to Trollpak, and if you happen to use a sling, you might want some)

Trollkin Slaves (Used to ill treatment.  Fantastic garbage disposal. Prone to eat their way out of restraint but likely won't try to escape as there are worse fates than being a slave to humans (like being a slave to trolls), Of more value if you know Darkspeech)

 

As an aside, I can't see the Trolls ever making much of an impression on human populations with their foodstuffs due to their appalling hygiene.  While there might be room to develop a market in various beetle meats, not many humans consider the extra trollkin booger sauce to be palatable, even if it is cuisine authentic.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

And if some folks use hazia to discorporate and pursue the spirit plane - how about mushrooms?  If the RW is a clue they wouldn't be addictive as hazia, but there might be a sanity check. 

Accumulating insanity might be one consequence, but many more substances inducing near-death-experiences (a perfectly valid alternative term for "Discorporation") attack the health of the practitioner, or end their lives. Like certain famous pop stars...

[OrlanthRex]

Trolls have a unique digestive system. As such, I think that the urea from trolls might be more concentrated. Urine was used in ancient times as a cleaner, whitener, leather tanner or teeth cleaner. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/from-gunpowder-to-teeth-whitener-the-science-behind-historic-uses-of-urine-442390/

[Squaredeal Sten]

8 hours ago, OrlanthRex said:

Trolls have a unique digestive system. As such, I think that the urea from trolls might be more concentrated. Urine was used in ancient times as a cleaner, whitener, leather tanner or teeth cleaner. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/from-gunpowder-to-teeth-whitener-the-science-behind-historic-uses-of-urine-442390/

It's the ammonia.  And ammonia, or urine, has been used as a mordant (a chemical that makes dyes set in the cloth that is dyed).  Of course what works as a mordant depends on the dye.  But those lichen dyes evidently work with an ammonia mordant.

 

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 12/25/2021 at 7:58 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

then of course there is lead.  Useful for many things -  plumbing until recently; paint base until recently;  sling and other bullets; roofing in sheets; weights; joining stained glass windows; coloring pottery;

Am I correct in my understanding that Glorantha lead, unlike RL lead, is not poisonous to humans?

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Am I correct in my understanding that Glorantha lead, unlike RL lead, is not poisonous to humans?

Metal toxicity hasn't been explored in Glorantha, other than iron for elder races and silver for otherwise invulnerable shapeshifters (werewolves, vampires). The aldryami use of copper still clashes with my professional background as a chemist. (Not that the metal is toxic to microorganisms and plants, but the salts resulting from its corrosion are.)

Speaking for our world, metallic lead isn't poisonous to humans on touch, and possibly mildly noxious if ingested (e.g. as lead shot in venison). Lead vapors are, as are "lead salts" - corroded lead dissolved in water, or lead pigments which can be absorbed through the skin when dissolved by sweat. Unfortunately, corrosion is hard to avoid.

There is acute lead poisoning, e.g. lead acetate, aka "mother in law's sugar" for its sweet taste, interrupting the chemistry of oxygen uptake, and there is chronic lead poisoning due to prolonged exposure with all manner of symptoms, often irreversible.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Am I correct in my understanding that Glorantha lead, unlike RL lead, is not poisonous to humans?

Lead poisoning takes a while. In a world like Gloranth, it should not make too big a differnce since mortaity rates are high and magical cures are available.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Am I correct in my understanding that Glorantha lead, unlike RL lead, is not poisonous to humans?

as probably any people will be heal by some magic a lot of times during their life, I would say that, even if it is, it would not be any impact. Of course, when/if magic disappears...

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Am I correct in my understanding that Glorantha lead, unlike RL lead, is not poisonous to humans?

Heavy metal poisoning doesn't appear in game.  In the ancient THRU early modern real world, lead was and is widely used and useful .  Anyway it is definitely a trade item as well as currency (bolgs).  Lead is easily worked at much lower temperatures than iron, and very useful.  Still has plenty of uses.  Still used in RW roofing, stained glass windows, x ray rooms, car batteries. Bullets, fishing sinkers, elevator counterweight.  Your computer.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Grammar

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Your computer

Don't you mean, your com-pewter... 🤪

[hasevir]

Spidersilk! Supposedly the kralorerans are using another method, but if you want to dress your own Melisandre from Garhound you won more fancifully than some green linen dresses with serpent skin belts and square copper jewellery. Well, troll silk would be the way. No doubt very expensive as it makes its way thru a gorakiki or aranea cult a troll family a troll clan and a argan argar cult with or without extra humans and then the praxian nomads as guards and/or protection money plus a issares cut and a pavis tax plus a extra lunar tax.

Now cow-pewter.. a Ze-Uraldan that eats aldryami whether mobile or immobile, leaks excess liquids and can do math really fast. Printing out the answers on freshly made paper from the plants from undrneath the tail. Obviously a very evil Mostali hellmachine.

[Squaredeal Sten]

An additional Uz product, in accord with Nochet, Queen of Cities,

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/446503/Nochet-Queen-of-Cities-RuneQuest

Is "earthblood" from the Shadow Plateau: that is Petroleum.  Which had ancient uses including as tar for  waterproofing ships and boats. 

Of course its incendiary use will also  occur to the munchkins among us,  but note that crude oil doesn't make good Molotov Cocktails. For that you need a refinery.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
added the URL link

[Joerg]

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

An additional Uz product, in accord with Nochet, Queen of Cities,

Is "earthblood" from the Shadow Plateau: that is Petroleum.  Which had ancient uses including as tar for  waterproofing ships and boats. 

Of course its incendiary use will also  occur to the munchkins among us,  but note that crude oil doesn't make good Molotov Cocktails. For that you need a refinery.

Given the mythical reality of Glorantha, there is a good chance that Earthblood has somewhat different properties than crude oil.

Not that crude oil has anything like a consistent composition, there is a reason why different "btands" of crude are traded, like e.g. North Sea "Brent".

So, much like Diskworld, I am all for Treacle Mines from fossile sugarcane forests and fat shafts from the killing of Maran's beasts, much like Diskworld's Fifth Elephant.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/26/2021 at 3:38 PM, Ironwall said:

The shear amount of dye the uz would be able to sell is ironic for a color blind race

Actually Trollpack (RQ Classics edition)  page 25 says that Dark Trolls can see red.  This would explain  their original production of cochineal for their own use, not just for export to humans.

And I suspect that the lichen dyes do not look like a uniform gray to Uz, but instead show them different shades of gray and red from what they see in undyed cloth. 

But the Uz probably regard the human partiality to lichens yielding  yellows, greens, and violets as very peculiar and almost inexplicable, much as humans regard Darksense or a hound dog's sense of smell:  It is reproducible, so  there must be something there.  And humans pay for it.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Dog's smell etc