Chalana Arroy discussions part II

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:09 AM, Darius West said:

So how about this situation...  A Chalana Arroy initiate sees a Gagarth worshipper getting ready to flee a crime by using telekinesis, and as this is the 'big bad', and nobody else can act, the CA lets rip with a 3pt divine Dispel Magic. 

Is she using her goddess power to do something else than heal  someone ?

As GM-goddess, the divine blasphemy to me is to use my/goddess power for a bad reason, I did not grant you my power to restore order, that's others gods job.

As GM-high-priest, as there is a bad issue, I would be chocked, and probably use divination to ask my GM-goddess what could be the right way.

 

 

[Alex]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

As GM-goddess, the divine blasphemy to me is to use my/goddess power for a bad reason, I did not grant you my power to restore order, that's others gods job.

IIRC, the Gloranthan deities don't have access to their initiates' intent, broadly speaking -- much like mortals in that respect, except that unlike mortals, when they don't know, they won't presume!  They'll be aware of whether they're acting in an affine manner, a contrary manner, or a "seems tangential to me, who know? mortals gonna mortal!" one, and that's about it, I think.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

As GM-goddess, the divine blasphemy to me is to use my/goddess power for a bad reason, I did not grant you my power to restore order, that's others gods job.

I can sympathize, but I can't agree.  After all, Chalana Arroy's cult teaches non-violent spirit magic so that the members can defend themselves.  I think 'restoring order' can be formulated as "social healing", and catching a bandit without killing them might be akin to helping to cure the 'body politic'.  Of course that isn't what happened the case I mentioned and the Gagarthi didn't so much fly as plummet.

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

IIRC, the Gloranthan deities don't have access to their initiates' intent, broadly speaking -- much like mortals in that respect, except that unlike mortals, when they don't know, they won't presume!  They'll be aware of whether they're acting in an affine manner, a contrary manner, or a "seems tangential to me, who know? mortals gonna mortal!" one, and that's about it, I think.

This is complex.  I don't think that gods can automatically knows a character's intent, but I think that if someone else can divine the intent of another character, then a god can choose to pay attention to that too, or a divination of that nature couldn't work.  A question of intent is entirely within the purview of what a divination can answer (I just checked).

I can say without doubt that the CA in question sincerely believed that their Dismiss Magic spell would go off with enough time to spare to insure the Gagarthi couldn't fly away, but never stopped to consider that they might become airborne and fall.  You might even say their intention was good but their execution was a fumble.  I can see why the GM had the character cast from the cult, and I suspect the GM might have had a bit of a grudge against the player IRL, and it definitely "fell within the terms" of excommunication (see what I did there?), but if intent is the measure of these things, I don't think the killing was intentional at all...  So really this falls in the category of malpractice imo.  It was an accidental killing, no different from a fumble while they're on the operating table or accidentally poisoning someone with the wrong herb.  Don't get me wrong, I definitely see a lot of graveyard shifts and bedpan duty in the initiate's future, but I'm not sure expulsion was fair.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think 'restoring order' can be formulated as "social healing", and catching a bandit without killing them might be akin to helping to cure the 'body politic'.

I can sympathize but I can't agree 😛

what I mean is Chalana Arroy heals like physicians heal. I don't expect a physician to fix anything in the society (justice, order, etc...), that's police, justice and political authority activities.

4 hours ago, Alex said:

IIRC, the Gloranthan deities don't have access to their initiates' intent, broadly speaking -- much like mortals in that respect, except that unlike mortals, when they don't know, they won't presume!  They'll be aware of whether they're acting in an affine manner, a contrary manner, or a "seems tangential to me, who know? mortals gonna mortal!" one, and that's about it, I think.

Not for me (I don't know if it is my glorantha, or the "core glorantha" however, you may be right RAW or not, don't know 🙂

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is complex.  I don't think that gods can automatically knows a character's intent, but I think that if someone else can divine the intent of another character, then a god can choose to pay attention to that too, or a divination of that nature couldn't work.  A question of intent is entirely within the purview of what a divination can answer (I just checked).

yes that is more my mind

 

to explain my point of view of gods (again, it is only my own perspective, I don't know how far from the published material I am, I even don't know if it is clearly described somewhere)  :

so the start is:

"why, sometimes, an orlanthi uses Orlanth's power to hurt a ernalda initiate."

Normaly, that should not happen as Orlanth did not hurt Ernalda (if I m wrong, imagine another example) but GM will allow it

 

Spoiler

well not all GM, at least me ! I don't consider divine magic as power gained by pc because pcs paid with 1 POW and now they can do what they want with.

I consider pc paid with 1 POW to "open" a channel with their god and now know how to ask the god to gain this power. but the answer, here and now, is not automatic

note that in all cases you must succeed the rune roll, for me it is the roll to check if you succeed to ask, not to obtain.

 

a god sees and understand the world with the "eyes" of its worshippers (lay member, initiate, ...) and servants (clouds, spirits, serpents, ....). That's why divination cannot answer everything, as things may be unknown by all a god "people".

So what understand the god ? what its follower believe and... show : the ernaldan initiate is not an ernaldan initiate but an eart goddess ennemy initiate or thing like that.

As I m a old myopic man I understand clearly what the poor god has to decide if yes or no : the god has to interpret in the fog of everything. The great compromise is just a "fuzzy logic" system

If the "sum" of all the god "people" seeing the scene think the same, then the god understand she is not ernalda but an unknown (or known) earth goddess who is an ennemy of its people. And maybe the god is not able to understand that its followers, on the same side of the poor ernalda initiate, are seeing the same situation, where orlanthi are attacking Ernalda, maybe in the same way Orlanth understand there are two places: one where orlanthi attack a group with a bad earth initiate, and one where bad winds followers (gargathi ?) attack a group with an ernaldan initiate.

 

so, in our example, if the chalana arroy cultist's intent was to heal some ill person, that is ok for the goddess

if the CA cultist was able to... well... deal with the reality and show her goddess a perspective well... acceptable and there is no other  "perspective" (from other CA cultist, lay member, etc..) , that is ok for the goddess, until she understand that her cultist "bargained" with her power

if the CA cultist is not able to persuade herself that she ask for heal, then CA would not dispel the magic

 

In this approach, illumination provides a better power than what is described by default in the rules :

if you are not persecuted by any spirit of reprisal, that is because you are able to persuade your god that you are a good worshiper. In the same manner, you are able to persuade your god that everything (rune magic) you ask must be done because that is a good request. The others persepective is not an issue, you able to convice the god that what you are experiencing, seeing, ... is not the same situation than others.

again I don't say it is rules, it is at least my glorantha. And it does not change a lot in reality, with a gameplay where rune spell is as any other magic spell and acts as soon as the dices are fine

 

 

 

 

[Alex]

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Not for me (I don't know if it is my glorantha, or the "core glorantha" however, you may be right RAW or not, don't know 🙂

I suspect I am! 🙂  For example, from RQG on divination:  "The god does not know what a Rune Master or initiate is thinking and cannot deduce motivations."  I think that's pretty consistent with how it's been written since Bernard Hinault was a fresh-faced young cyclist.  (Bonus French reference!)  Now of course, one could give oneself some wriggle-room by arguing that what a deity knows, and what a deity is telling for the purposes of divination are distinct.  Or that "motivations" and "thoughts" are in a different category from "thing I specifically want to accomplish for the purposes of this use of rune, in which the goddess and I are in a sense temporarily one".

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I consider pc paid with 1 POW to "open" a channel with their god and now know how to ask the god to gain this power. but the answer, here and now, is not automatic

Sure, I think that's a valid way of looking at it.  But at least in the usual case (RQ rune magic, all happening on SR 1) there's no "oral arguments" phase of pleading the case here -- it's a pretty snap decision, on whatever basis it's made on.  There's indeed a roll involved, but it's an "incarnate the god" -- or that runic portion the worshipper and the deity have in common, to take the rules literally on that -- thing, not a 'second-guess the worthiness of the action taken in that capacity' one.  You could certainly factor that in, but logically that'd be an additional roll (or a penalty to the first one, or the like), rather than a rationale of it.

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

So what understand the god ? what its follower believe and... show : the ernaldan initiate is not an ernaldan initiate but an eart goddess ennemy initiate or thing like that.

Or an "imperfect vessel" of Ernalda.  Others are available!  Looking for manifestations of my wife in aaallllll the wrong places...

But look at an even simpler example.  Orlanthi initiates knock lumps out of each other on a regular basis.  Does Orlanth have a myth about beating himself up?  (Actually, I guess there are stranger things one could be asked to imagine...)  But we don't find ourselves asking, "which side does Orlanth want to win here?" in the process of deciding of whether rune magic activates or not.  

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In this approach, illumination provides a better power than what is described by default in the rules :

if you are not persecuted by any spirit of reprisal, that is because you are able to persuade your god that you are a good worshiper. In the same manner, you are able to persuade your god that everything (rune magic) you ask must be done because that is a good request. The others persepective is not an issue, you able to convice the god that what you are experiencing, seeing, ... is not the same situation than others.

That seems a little convoluted to me.  I think if anything, Illumination underlines the fact that deities are indeed pretty limited in what they know of their worshippers' minds, and that turning into a cross-legged levitating type simply makes that moreso.  They're still seeing other perspectives of what you're up to, but your own initiatory state is even more compartmentalised to them.  "I see your Air rune is 90%, and your Movement one is 70%, excellent!"  <fails to take cognisance of the 120% Status, 140% Fire, 160% Earth, and 210% Moon>

[Baron Wulfraed]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I can sympathize but I can't agree 😛

what I mean is Chalana Arroy heals like physicians heal. I don't expect a physician to fix anything in the society (justice, order, etc...), that's police, justice and political authority activities.

This will be my only post on this commentary, just to minimize the OT damages.

There are some groups in the US that advocate just that for doctors -- to question patients about firearm ownership and subtly imply it is a mental illness.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Don't get me wrong, I definitely see a lot of graveyard shifts and bedpan duty in the initiate's future, but I'm not sure expulsion was fair

I disagree.

The Initiate used their goddesses' power to kill someone!** That's full on excommunication!

Now, the question is - is there any way to get back in? Bedpans and graveyard shifts are nothing, and more akin to a slight tap on the wrist.

 

(**and Remember the situation - someone was flying away.. Not a threat to anyone. And also remember that the White Lady doesn't play politics - at all (except maybe if you call Chaos "political"). So, even if the Gargathi was a murderer from an enemy cult and culture, they're still a sentient life... So no on the killing)

[Dragon]

16 hours ago, Alex said:

<fails to take cognisance of the 120% Status, 140% Fire, 160% Earth, and 210% Moon>

An intriguing prospect. I do not recall a RAW method to achieve Runes much above 100. IIRC If you use it successfully, you get an experience check. You can then roll against the current ability - which has no bonus. Thus, the character has to roll a lot of exactly 100. But I do get that the Movement/"Status" dichotomy should garner attention even at Movement 70/Stasis 90. Clearly said character has swapped competing power runes.

Hence, you must be saying that said character did some nefarious or extremely unusual runic manipulations to achieve those runes. Much heroquesting!

[Alex]

Just now, Dragon said:

An intriguing prospect. I do not recall a RAW method to achieve Runes much above 100.

OK, "bad example", as Colonel O'Neill famously (and repeatedly) said. But you get the general idea!

Just now, Dragon said:

Hence, you must be saying that said character did some nefarious or extremely unusual runic manipulations to achieve those runes. Much heroquesting!

Now you've got it! 😄

Thought experiment:  what sort of "Air" rune rating would someone like Lokamayadon -- said to be trying to supplant the god himself according to his detractors, maybe actually largely responsible for the modern cult, if you believe his revisionist defenders -- have in his pomp?  Or Argarth Orlanthsson/Orlanth Argarthi at a similar point?  Or is there there some other mechanic entirely at work here than Rune ratings, or have we just thrown away the RQ completely at this point?  (Pass the Questworlds rules, or 13thAG, or Fate, or AW, or Dragon Pass...)

[Alex]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Initiate used their goddesses' power to kill someone!** That's full on excommunication!

I guess the question is, does the goddess even (appear to) "notice" this?  The death is outwith the immediate scope of the use of the magic:  the divine blessing is invoked, happens, ends, all pretty much instantaneously, everyone is still alive and well.  "It's not the fall I'm worried about, it's the ground."  This is also "common" rune magic, which seems like it's be less somehow less intensely scrutinised by the Otherworld when and as it occurs.  Or in the extreme case, say a CA initiate does this, but using a different RPP in the process.  But regardless, CA does potentially have "eyes on" this via the perp themself, whether or not she discerns their motivation for the magical act itself.

And the secondary question is, do any other CA worshippers notice this?  Either first hand (in which case it's all yet-more visible to the goddess, as in the first case), or when the rumour-mill reaches the local temple.  Other Lightbringers might have scope to magically meddle here, to a lesser degree, or anyone inclined to tattle by mundane means.

If there's a pattern of behaviour here, the goddess will eventually "notice" it if only via the initiate's applicable Runes'n'Passions.  Unless we're back in the Illuminated case, of course!

[Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

OK, "bad example", as Colonel O'Neill famously (and repeatedly) said. But you get the general idea!

Now you've got it! 😄

Thought experiment:  what sort of "Air" rune rating would someone like Lokamayadon -- said to be trying to supplant the god himself according to his detractors, maybe actually largely responsible for the modern cult, if you believe his revisionist defenders -- have in his pomp?  Or Argarth Orlanthsson/Orlanth Argarthi at a similar point?  Or is there there some other mechanic entirely at work here than Rune ratings, or have we just thrown away the RQ completely at this point?  (Pass the Questworlds rules, or 13thAG, or Fate, or AW, or Dragon Pass...)

Those darn archeologists who carry weapons! I always liked the "That's O'Neill with two Ls".

Indeed. I am convinced that those examples (not bad ones at all) are all quite loaded with heroquest abilities which we cannot yet describe as we are still waiting for HeroQuest rules for RQ. (Not the renamed QuestWorlds). We got a tease for the Hero Points from <woodsy spoiler which shall remain unnamed here>. But very vague rules as to how that works. Can that one point be used constantly, every 15 minutes, does it require worshippers to restore it? 

[Shiningbrow]

My take on this is - if the Initiate is feeling a strong degree of guilt when they commune with their god, then the god will be aware of it (if it bothers to pay any attention to it).

19 hours ago, Alex said:

And the secondary question is, do any other CA worshippers notice this?  Either first hand (in which case it's all yet-more visible to the goddess, as in the first case), or when the rumour-mill reaches the local temple.  Other Lightbringers might have scope to magically meddle here, to a lesser degree, or anyone inclined to tattle by mundane means.

If the CA Initiate doesn't feel any guilt towards being the cause of a sentient being's death, then I'd be questioning their reason for being in that cult.... And, by 'feeling guilt', I'd also expect them to tell their priest/ess about it.

[Darius West]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:35 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Bedpans and graveyard shifts are nothing, and more akin to a slight tap on the wrist.

You've obviously never done bedpan duty or graveyard shifts.  I would argue that they are soul destroying enough to deny you a seasonal  POW gain.

[Darius West]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:25 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I can sympathize but I can't agree 😛

what I mean is Chalana Arroy heals like physicians heal. I don't expect a physician to fix anything in the society (justice, order, etc...), that's police, justice and political authority activities.

The whole purpose of Chalana's Oath was to stop wars; that is intrinsically political, and is based on a very specific value judgement that was not widely shared.  If Chalana Arroys cannot be political, then why can they serve on Clan Rings and Tribal Rings?  Why do CA temples have a hierarchy?  Why did the Goddess herself make the political decision to become a Lightbringer, and not remain a good and faithful little Solar girl and STFU when the men are talking?  A happy and well-ordered society with just laws is very much something that Chalana Arroy wants, as without these preconditions there can be no peace, and peace is her end-goal.  Narrowing her down to a 'one-trick healing pony' is not doing her justice imo, and as the old saying goes, "without justice there can be no peace".

Edited January 14, 2022 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

why can they serve on Clan Rings and Tribal Rings

in my opinion, because as she wants no suffer for anyone in the world, to temper the other leaders and try to save options other  than violence.

and in a fight, they have to be neutral and heal everyone, friends and ennemies, their clan like the others (well I believe ?).

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Why do CA temples have a hierarchy?

because a community needs teachers to improve their initiates knowledge, and leaders to organize effectively the community actions. Of course, it never happens that someone wants / succeeds to be the leader by personal ambition. Of course, never, never. No no never 😉

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Why did the Goddess herself make the political decision to become a Lightbringer, and not remain a good and faithful little Solar girl and STFU when the men are talking? 

maybe because everything was dead except few, and among the few, the lightbringers tried to heal the world.

maybe she understood (was she right or not is another point) that she would heal more / better with the freedom of the air than with the rules of the sun

 

Note I never said that a healer (irl physician or chalana initiates) has no free will, cannot decide, must be a "follower". Two people with the same oath  in the same situation may decide differently.

  They  can do what they want, but if they broke Hippocratic / Chalana Oaths, they would not be seen anymore as a healer by their pairs (and their goddess in our case).

The only question is did they break the oath. And this oath is not based on the local laws : even if the law allows(or even orders) you to kill this murderer, CA initiates would break their oath doing it, even if they are the only people able to act.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:36 AM, Dragon said:

An intriguing prospect. I do not recall a RAW method to achieve Runes much above 100.

Nor can the opposed runes go above 99 or under 1 percent 

[Dragon]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Nor can the opposed runes go above 99 or under 1 percent 

Not without heroquesting...and we don't have those rules yet.

[soltakss]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:40 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is she using her goddess power to do something else than heal  someone ?

Chalana Arroy's Runes are Fertility and Harmony.

She has a Runespell called Harmony that forces people to stop fighting.

She is more than just a healing goddess.

Her worshippers actively promote Harmony as well as Fertility.

On 1/12/2022 at 8:25 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

what I mean is Chalana Arroy heals like physicians heal. I don't expect a physician to fix anything in the society (justice, order, etc...), that's police, justice and political authority activities.

They have Harmony as a Rune, not just Fertility.

On 1/12/2022 at 8:25 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

if the CA cultist was able to... well... deal with the reality and show her goddess a perspective well... acceptable and there is no other  "perspective" (from other CA cultist, lay member, etc..) , that is ok for the goddess, until she understand that her cultist "bargained" with her power

if the CA cultist is not able to persuade herself that she ask for heal, then CA would not dispel the magic

Harmony opposes Disorder, so a Chalana Arroy cultists could dispel a Gagarthi's Flight, or whatever spell they were using, but only if the Gagarthi was on the ground and the fall would not hurt them.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Dragon said:

Not without heroquesting...and we don't have those rules yet.

Never as far as I know. They must add to 100

[Martin Dick]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Never as far as I know. They must add to 100

We know that's not necessarily true for Illuminates, so there are almost certainly other ways to break the nexus between them

[Bill the barbarian]

10 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

We know that's not necessarily true for Illuminates, so there are almost certainly other ways to break the nexus between them

Hmm, actually I did not know that. Where is this written down. I should read up on this.

[Martin Dick]

57 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hmm, actually I did not know that. Where is this written down. I should read up on this.

Gencon Preview edition of Gods of Glorantha Page 332 in the Nysalor/Gbaji writeup. The third power is Embrace Runic Opposites - "An Illuminate's opposed Runes (such as Death and Life, or Beast and Man) no longer need to add up to 100%."

[Bill the barbarian]

Yep, I do not feel bad about getting facts wrong when the source is not available to me (or over 90% of it’s potential customers). I don’t consider it a rule until it has passed three retcons...

Thanks Martin!

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[davecake]

The ‘Opposed Runes no longer Opposed’ rule for Illuminates was also in HeroQuest Glorantha, FWIW. 
if you are speculating about rules, may as well speculate about what the rules almost certainly will be. 

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, davecake said:

if you are speculating about rules, may as well speculate about what the rules almost certainly will be. 

So long as this is noted, by all means. Speculation in Speculative Fiction, how novel!