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Kargzant=Yelmalio?


Dogboy

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10 hours ago, Jeff said:

If I recall, Greg figured that Kuschile Horse Archery dates from when the Pelorian Kargzant was recognized as Yelmalio in the First Age. As Yelmalio is also the solar horse god, it meant that the cult members of the Peloria hills could serve as mounted archery without being particularly good horsemen.

If Kargzant=Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is the sun-horse, why isn't Yelmalio worshipped as such in the Grazelands? you'd assume they are very adept Kuschile archers. it makes me think that Yelmalio is Orlanth Adventurous, to Yelms' Orlanth Rex.

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4 minutes ago, Dogboy said:

why isn't Yelmalio worshipped as such in the Grazelands?

Because they are Yelm worshippers, and there is an entire set of myths about Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Archer, etc.  Yelmalio is not needed there when they can fully embrace all aspects of Yelm.

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7 hours ago, Dogboy said:

If Kargzant=Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is the sun-horse, why isn't Yelmalio worshipped as such in the Grazelands? you'd assume they are very adept Kuschile archers. it makes me think that Yelmalio is Orlanth Adventurous, to Yelms' Orlanth Rex.

The Grazeland Pony Breeders are Pure Horse People, and are descended from Yelm. They maintain their restrictions that they herd only horses and do not engage in agriculture, which allows them to contact Yelm directly.

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10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Because they are Yelm worshippers, and there is an entire set of myths about Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Archer, etc.  Yelmalio is not needed there when they can fully embrace all aspects of Yelm.

So, you don't see any confusion in mine and Jeffs' posts? 🤨

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Not being Jeff, I try to answer, as I imagine GoG has everyone busy. The Hyalorings call the sun Kargzant, the same as the Pentans and the Pure Horse People. The Dara Happans could not consider K. the equal of Yelm, so they equated him with Lightfore or the other gods of the Yellow Planet, among them Yelmalio, and along the way gained some of Kargzant power and abilities. But the riders know K. is the king of kings, not a dutiful son of a city dweller god. The unending conflict with the Horse Nomads is a solar supremacy fight.

I do not know where the other phalanx gods fit, Daysenervus and Tharkantus, first and second age, but they are also connected with Lightfore and Yelmalio.

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2 hours ago, JRE said:

The Hyalorings call the sun Kargzant, the same as the Pentans and the Pure Horse People.

The sun is Yu-Kargzant.  Kargzant is Lightfore.  The Grazers can worshipped Yu-Kargzant because they have the lineage.  Most Pentans cannot. 

2 hours ago, JRE said:

The Dara Happans could not consider K. the equal of Yelm, so they equated him with Lightfore or the other gods of the Yellow Planet,

Kargzant was associated by the Pentans and Dara Happans alike with the Yellow Planet in the Great Darkness and Gray Age. He is qualitatively not the same as Yelm/Yu-Kargzant. 

 

 

Edited by metcalph
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31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The sun is Yu-Kargzant.  Kargzant is Lightfore.  The Grazers can worshipped Yu-Kargzant because they have the lineage.  Most Pentans cannot. 

I’m not quite sure how the Pentans conceptualise the difference - if Yu-Kargzant is Imperial Kargzant, is that Kargzant as Emperor, or the Emperor acknowledged by Kargzant, or are both names titles to the Pentans (like Rider, and Lord of Riders?). But yes, different entities. 
Though do some non-Pure Pentan tribes have a Yu-Kargzant minority? 

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59 minutes ago, davecake said:

I’m not quite sure how the Pentans conceptualise the difference - if Yu-Kargzant is Imperial Kargzant, is that Kargzant as Emperor, or the Emperor acknowledged by Kargzant, or are both names titles to the Pentans (like Rider, and Lord of Riders?).

The Imperial Sun is an epithet made by an outsider scribe and not one necessarily made by the Grazers themselves.  Yu has the sense of godhood about it rather than Emperor.  Hence Yu-Kargzant reads to me like God of Kargzant with time and custom turning the title into a proper name (cf Jupiter whose name is literally "Sky Father").

59 minutes ago, davecake said:

Though do some non-Pure Pentan tribes have a Yu-Kargzant minority? 

Most Pentan Sun worshippers are members of a specific tribe.  Whether other solar tribes have any is kinda beyond the scope of the forum.

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14 hours ago, Dogboy said:

If Kargzant=Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is the sun-horse, why isn't Yelmalio worshipped as such in the Grazelands? you'd assume they are very adept Kuschile archers. it makes me think that Yelmalio is Orlanth Adventurous, to Yelms' Orlanth Rex.

The Grazers already have their own archery deity - Jardan (aka Golden Bow or Yelm the Archer), whom they worship within the cult of Yu-Kargzant (Yelm of the Grazelands).

Kargzant is worshipped by those horse nomads who cannot worship Yu-Kargzant due to inferior lineage (ie most Pentans and perhaps the Char-Un).  

One could be a complete God-Learner and say that Jardan and Kargzant are the same god worshipped in different ways (one by savage horsemen and the other by smug horsemen).

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7 hours ago, metcalph said:

The sun is Yu-Kargzant.  Kargzant is Lightfore.  The Grazers can worshipped Yu-Kargzant because they have the lineage.  Most Pentans cannot. 

Kargzant was associated by the Pentans and Dara Happans alike with the Yellow Planet in the Great Darkness and Gray Age. He is qualitatively not the same as Yelm/Yu-Kargzant. 

I agree that is how things were at Dawn and kept by strict conservatives like the Pure Horse, but I was explaining why we have so many uses for the name Kargzant, and the Guide to Glorantha (Vol. II, p. 247) shows this conflict between meanings of Kargzant.

Quote

The Sun is worshiped in some form by most peoples in Glorantha. Yelm, the Dara Happan Sun God, is the most widespread name given to this god, and is known in many lands outside of Peloria. Most Orlanthi say that the Sun is Elmal, a thane of Orlanth, while in Pent it is Kargzant, the Horse God who was a rival of Yelm when the Pentans ruled Dara Happa in the First Age.

Edited by JRE
Taking out the weapons discussion, and putting it back in the appropiate thread.
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30 minutes ago, JRE said:

I agree that is how things were at Dawn and kept by strict conservatives like the Pure Horse, but I was explaining why we have so many uses for the name Kargzant, and the Guide to Glorantha (Vol. II, p. 247) shows this conflict between meanings of Kargzant.

The Dawn is about 1600 years ago and what people called the sun then isn't really material for RQ, dontcha think?

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20 hours ago, Dogboy said:

You'd assume they are very adept Kuschile archers.

Why on Glorantha would they be good at Kuschile archery?

Their ride is going to start at at least 75% for cavalry (base 05, culture 35, occupation 35 plus Agility modifier)... and, a PC can add another 15-35% for Cult, or 10/25% from Personal Bonuses.

Kuschile starts at only 25% with a Geas...

Edited by Shiningbrow
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13 hours ago, Dogboy said:

So, you don't see any confusion in mine and Jeffs' posts?

No.

As Jeff noted the Grazelanders are Pure Horse People and descend directly from Yelm and can contact Yelm directly.

As I noted, the Yelm cult fully encapsulates the stories of Yelm the Youth (adventurous), Yelm the Archer, Yelm the Sun Lord, and Yelm Imperator (ruler).

They don't need Yelmalio to fill those mythic roles.

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7 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Dawn is about 1600 years ago and what people called the sun then isn't really material for RQ, dontcha think?

This conversation, now taken out of context, was about Yelmalio. Some enterprising Yelmalio cultist Heroquested and found a link to 1st Age Kargzanti Horse Archers. Kuschile archery is a leg up for a bunch of foot soldiers. My guess would be that it would also be taught to Grazer kids, who aren't great riders (yet), as defense against attack.

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No.

As Jeff noted the Grazelanders are Pure Horse People and descend directly from Yelm and can contact Yelm directly.

As I noted, the Yelm cult fully encapsulates the stories of Yelm the Youth (adventurous), Yelm the Archer, Yelm the Sun Lord, and Yelm Imperator (ruler).

They don't need Yelmalio to fill those mythic roles.

But he is there. There is a very good reason why the Grazers would still worship Kargzant/Lightfore: because you have to protect your herds at night too. Yelm/Yu-Kargzant gets Catseye from Yelmalio/Kargzant/Lightfore. He wouldn't get that from a bunch of footsoldiers, he'd get it from the cult of nocturnal guardians.

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3 hours ago, Dogboy said:

But he is there. There is a very good reason why the Grazers would still worship Kargzant/Lightfore: because you have to protect your herds at night too. Yelm/Yu-Kargzant gets Catseye from Yelmalio/Kargzant/Lightfore. He wouldn't get that from a bunch of footsoldiers, he'd get it from the cult of nocturnal guardians.

They could worship Pole Star for that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, metcalph said:

They could worship Pole Star for that.

You have no soul, Pete 🤣
Anyway, why take on a foreign god to do the job already taken by one of your own? I'm down with them pushing their Sun god on the Dara Happans, but they are unlikely to take a walker god  when they already have a servicable god themselves.

Edited by Dogboy
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Polestar need not be foreign. He saved a lot of people during the great darkness, maybe one of them was your grazelander clan. Besides, any solar enough culture is going to have a name and great respect for one of the most important stars.

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10 hours ago, Dogboy said:

My guess would be that it would also be taught to Grazer kids, who aren't great riders (yet), as defense against attack.

I doubt that.

Grazer kids would be much better at riding than shooting a bow. Especially since the former is done almost since birth (constantly on horseback), while the latter requires strength and training.

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50 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I doubt that.

Grazer kids would be much better at riding than shooting a bow. Especially since the former is done almost since birth (constantly on horseback), while the latter requires strength and training.

Pretty much any horse nomad culture teaches riding, archery, and wrestling to its boys basically as soon as they're capable of learning them. The Mongolians called these the "three manly skills," for example, and they're actually the most popular sports in Mongolia today. Horse archery isn't just for warfare in such societies; it's a basic survival skill for living as a herdsman on the steppes. It's not only the primary method of hunting, it's also your primary means of protecting your herds from predators (both human and otherwise). A Pentan boy would start learning all three of these skills from a very early age.

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58 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I doubt that.

Grazer kids would be much better at riding than shooting a bow. Especially since the former is done almost since birth (constantly on horseback), while the latter requires strength and training.

for real like rural north maghrebine societies: consider tburidé, and that women now play it (and win the contests).

Also if you've never watched tburidé,

LA-TBOURIDA-DES-FEMMES-(9) - Moroccan Ladies

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24 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Pretty much any horse nomad culture teaches riding, archery, and wrestling to its boys basically as soon as they're capable of learning them. The Mongolians called these the "three manly skills," for example, and they're actually the most popular sports in Mongolia today. Horse archery isn't just for warfare in such societies; it's a basic survival skill for living as a herdsman on the steppes. It's not only the primary method of hunting, it's also your primary means of protecting your herds from predators (both human and otherwise). A Pentan boy would start learning all three of these skills from a very early age.

Let me clarify and restate - Grazer kids would be much better at riding than shooting a bow.

I have no doubt that by the age of, say, 12, Grazers (and Mongolians) would be very competent with a bow (and other skills). But I still hold that their riding skill will still be considered much better. And then, there's the combat/hunting effectiveness of the bow. Sure, they'll be accurate (even while moving on horseback), but they'll lack the range and power of older Grazers/Mongolians. (of course, the type of bow helps here).

I suppose the obvious question here should be - in the Grazer culture, they get +35% to Ride, but only +15% to Comp Bow. Do we agree with these? In addition, when adding in the Light Cavalry, they get another +35%, but only + 25% in Bow... again, do we agree?

I do, because of what I wrote before.

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Kuschile archery cannot be taught normally, so we should stop using RW analogues, and obviously is not useful for horse nomads as they do not normally learn it. However it should work for Impala riders, or the list of gifts and geas for them should be changed.

There are three questions, what is the effect of the skill we try to simulate, if the current rules do what we want, and what is the mythic reasoning behind it.

From the discussion and Jeff comments, the effect is that unskilled riders are effective archers while on horseback. 

I agree the rule as written does not do that, as improving riding is much more useful. Mechanically I would simply add the Kuschile archery skill to my ride to determine the maximum skill for my bow. So 35% Ride and 35% Kuschile Archery let me use up to 70% bow. If both go to 40, I can benefit up to 80%. I think it gives the desired effect without any complex mechanics or rolls, and you can still improve it as long as your bow is high enough.

Now, the Impala. Normal Impala Riders will have high enough Ride, and we have even some discussion whether it would work from an Impala. Why would the Impala choose Yelmalio? A skill not useful for them, many spears that are not too good for pygmies, and no bow magic, though with abundant shamans spirit magic at least will be good...

I would propose the Yelmalion Impalas are those that guard the camp and the women while in the march. Which is why they learn spears besides the bows. They may not have animals, or they just are not too good. And I would propose, tying this with the old Solar chariot tribes, the Gamatae, that Kuschile Archery also works from chariots or wagons. I have always had a weakness for old Yamsur, from RQ3 Sun County. However in a game I would allow an Impala Yelmalion to use Kuschile archery from an Impala. Although Bow and Ride may start at similar values, knowing PCs, Bow will increase faster, so my proposed change would still be useful for the PC.

As for mythical justifications, I am sure it claims to bring back the deeds of the Silver age Solar nomads, but I believe it is a development in the Tharkantus period, second age, as a way to adapt your troops from heavy infantry to a more mobile force to fight the EWF, so being able to face enemies like dragonewts, flying draconics and dinosaurs. Troops that can shoot and evade dragonfire and Dinosaur charges.

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50 minutes ago, JRE said:

Kuschile archery cannot be taught normally, so we should stop using RW analogues, and obviously is not useful for horse nomads as they do not normally learn it. However it should work for Impala riders, or the list of gifts and geas for them should be changed.

No, Kuschile is only for Yelmalio cultists as we know them: foot-soldiers, with little experience of horses. My point about kids was a stupid one, I'll admit.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Tabor said:

Polestar need not be foreign. He saved a lot of people during the great darkness, maybe one of them was your grazelander clan. Besides, any solar enough culture is going to have a name and great respect for one of the most important stars.

I meant that in that Pole Star, as a cult, is a lowlander war cult. It's the cult of officers. Pentans know the entity, but likely, not in the same way. It's like this conversation, Yelmalio is known as Kargzant by early horse nomads. It doesn't mean they worshipped the same cults as the Sun Dome, it means they worshipped the same entity.
Now they worship an amalgamated Sun god (at least we have the Grazer, not the Dara Happan, cult in the rules, even if i'm not totally sold on it). To my mind, Yelm should have Catseye, not because Yelmalio is "the only sky god worshipped with mych frequency by [outsiders]... and gives his father [Catseye]" but because, to them, it is an aspect/subcult of Yelm. IMG, I'd have Yelmalio as a fork of the Yelm cult, that sat beside the Archer level but allowed the worshipper to be folded back into the Yelm cult at the Sun Lord or Elder levels if they choose to lead, Much like how a Vingan can become an Orlanth Rex member.

Edited by Dogboy
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