Runequest Elevator Pitch for D&D (5e) players. (And overall how to deal with "Anxiety of Influences.")

[Imperial_Solaire]

I am fairly new to this system (only ran two or three sessions with a group and maybe 5 sessions for a single player who is adamant that his Baboon become a shaman "the right way."

The problem I have with trying to run this game is that my players always come in with preconceived ideas of what this game is, because let's face it 5e skews your viewpoint on what a TTRPG is if it was your first.

I typically tell them the whole Glorantha pitch, "A world where everyone knows magic and the gods are real." type stuff and also explain the mechanics (my players are very familiar with Call of Cthulhu so there is no problem here.) I have the maps (which are lovely) and I tell them a little bit about the world and the people that live in it (they love to hear about the undead killing ducks). I show them art and I tell them lore (or as much lore as is necessary)

The same problem always comes up though, my players either

1. Go into this as a game where the PCs are the main characters of the world and fight everything with no plan and die. (The D&D players)
2. Are too scared to fight ANYTHING and want ask to do Library Use rolls. (The Call players)
3. Turned off because they think you must know ALL the lore before setting foot in Glorantha. (My anxious players)

My question to you folks is this.

How do you pitch this game to new/less experienced players. What is your session 0 like? And How do you guide your players in this world for the full experience?

Also, do you have any stories of your players from other systems having a "A-ha!" moment that made them understand the rules/setting more than they did coming in.

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

I've never been a GM, so that's one strike right there.

RQ2 was the first RPG I was introduced to (I then bought the Traveller system: 3book box set, addendums, hard-cover, MegaTraveller, New Era). AD&D (and then 2nd Ed) was the second RPG I was introduced (as in "played") to -- and I found that artificial level/class system quite obnoxious (What... I've never used my dagger for more than eating, and suddenly I'm twice as effective with it? I'm wearing my own weight in metal armor and I'm actually /harder/ to hit? But if I am hit it is as if I had no armor regarding damages).

The GM didn't emphasize much of the Gloranthan mythos -- beyond Cults of Prax. Character generation basically had us as a bunch of snot-nosed kids wearing ponchos made of carpet remnants for armor and using baseball bats for weapons (linen/mace) making our first forays out of town. Our first few sessions basically had us beating up the operator of the "troll bridge" or wandering parties of trollkin. Since the bridge troll kept getting upgraded we eventually gave in and just paid the troll... The trollkin eventually got upgraded to wandering party of broo. We didn't use purchased scenarios -- mostly the random encounter table in RQ2, with maybe some overall mission goal (equivalent to a dungeon-crawl).

Even CoP was only of light use at first, since RQ2 required "two years" (as I recall) as a lay member before one could attempt initiation, and once initiated we rarely had Rune/Divine magic since it was one-use and required actual POW sacrifice (no such thing as a renewable pool of rune points) per spell. Everyone tended to get Heal-2 as that was the minimum needed to cauterize wounds to stop bleeding-out (and a few had the xeno-heal to handle injured horses or other species party members).

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Baron Wulfraed

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

6 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

• Go into this as a game where the PCs are the main characters of the world and fight everything with no plan and die. (The D&D players)
• Are too scared to fight ANYTHING and want ask to do Library Use rolls. (The Call players)
• Turned off because they think you must know ALL the lore before setting fo

Yes. That's us too.

So, what we did is turn this around and make it true for our glorantha.

- The tribe is just a bunch of old people and little kids, there are few warriors/able people their character's age. Now that this [evil] comes around, honestly, there is only them. This gives them the chance to step up to be the the hero or stay with Nana, There are no other options, you can't sell everything and go be a tailor on the city. You can, just as an npc.

Then we all go without a plan and die and thats fine too. Die and learn, Die and learn. Start the adventure with "this is where you get your resurects, they cost this much"

- They should be scared, Runequest is brutal. The first time an arrow went through a neck we were hooked on the violence. Start small, repeat the same enemy a couple of times until everyone knows what's going on. 

Everyone tries to smart their way out, most characters are not smart enough to pull half of the things their players pretend to do.... and if they are, throw arrows at them while they try to read.

- They do know all the Lore. All the Lore their characters need to know.

Bullshit away my friends, we don't have any ideas of what's going on most of the time, if someone is making stuff up or read the glorantha guide vol5, most likely non of us would be able to tell.

Open the glorantha wiki find a random article and work that bit into the conversation or just let the players and characters be ignorant together, the best part of being in a world where blue people exists is not knowing you will see blue people buying fish on the next town. 

6 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

How do you pitch this game to new/less experienced players. What is your session 0 like? And How do you guide your players in this world for the full experience?

We came up with "this is like the movies", honestly, there are no movies like 5e, wizards don't work like that in the movies and barbarians are not inmune to fall damage outside dnd shows or books.

Find what sort of media they enjoy and go with that "This is like [let them pick]" either be Gladiator, Robin hood, lord of the Rings, howls moving castle, full metal alchemist, Thor or the northman.

If you screw it up as a DM, just tell them.

"Well, apparently there are no machine guns on the game, my bad, moving on..." or play in a world with machine guns, who is going to stop you?

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

How do you pitch this game to new/less experienced players. What is your session 0 like? And How do you guide your players in this world for the full experience?

I have done this at least 3 times in my life. 

Step 1.  You need to establish trust and understanding with your players and their expectations.  You think you need to explain Glorantha to them, but that is impossible, so don't do that.  Instead explain that you are going to teach them the game by letting them grow up in Glorantha and learn the game by interacting with the world.  Don't be afraid to let them read some source material.

Step 2.  Raise your players as good Orlanthi.  That is... Run some scenarios set in a standard Orlanthi setting, with them as kids initially.  Make these adventures easy and childish, but memorable.  Then run their initiation into adulthood as a scenario.  Then have them run into Lunar trouble in some form.  If they are clever they don't get exiled as outlaws.  Don't push them into combat stories, or encourage combat.  Combat is a product of role-playing context.  If there is no good political and contextual reason to get into a fight, then players need to understand that fighting for its own sake isn't desirable. 

Step 3.  There are plenty or resources regarding the views of the various cults, so have them roleplay encounters with the priests of the deities they are interested in.  As GM you play the priest and answer the questions they have a la "Staves of the Storm Priest" etc.

Step 4.  Build a consistent reality with re-occurring NPCs whom the characters can have meaningful interactions with on a regular basis.  Players turn into murder hoboes when they don't value NPCs lives.  Give them friends and family who are useful and care about them and matter.  This will potentially raise the emotional stakes of the game and help the players invest in the story and the causes become motivations in the story.  Let the players choose their path, but remind them that they have friends and family who will judge those choices.  Yes they can join the Seven Mothers, but their parents may well disown them, for example.

Step 5.  Set the characters up with the training they need to become decent examples of their cult and society, give them the grounding in the world they need by teaching thru play, and then "chuck them out of the nest".  The simplest example of this is having them need to seek safety in New Pavis and begin the adventurer lifestyle there, but as rounded characters with a lived/played back story.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Darius West

[Runeblogger]

I haven't started a campaign yet, but I have one in hiatus with RQ3 that I plan keep running with RQG.

I have played and run some RQG one-shots for beginners, though.

18 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

I typically tell them the whole Glorantha pitch, "A world where everyone knows magic and the gods are real." type stuff and also explain the mechanics (my players are very familiar with Call of Cthulhu so there is no problem here.) I have the maps (which are lovely) and I tell them a little bit about the world and the people that live in it (they love to hear about the undead killing ducks). I show them art and I tell them lore (or as much lore as is necessary)

I think your pitch is good enough, and very similar to what I do. I would only add what cool things the PCs are going to be able to do like cast lightning from their swords, summon earth elementals, etc.

18 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

What is your session 0 like?

I think at a good session 0 you'll tell your players what kind of campaign you have in mind (in case you have one) and more or less what charaters you expect them to create. Like, for example if your campaign is going to start in New Pavis (in Prax) you can tell them about the different cultures that live there and what is the current situation. Then it's good to find a good reason for the players to stick together, like "We are all from the same clan/neighbors in the city/street gang/mercenary band/temple" or whatever they come up with. Preferrably a long-term common goal on top of their individual goals. If they have crazy ideas, try your best to accommodate them (if possible).

18 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

And How do you guide your players in this world for the full experience?

I think "the full experience" is a fallacy, it does not exist. Whatever you play at your table is going to be "the full experience".

But if you are looking for ideas on how to get started, I recommend you reading:  👉 my 5 cents. 👈😉

As for the following cases:

18 hours ago, Imperial_Solaire said:

1. Go into this as a game where the PCs are the main characters of the world and fight everything with no plan and die. (The D&D players)
2. Are too scared to fight ANYTHING and want ask to do Library Use rolls. (The Call players)
3. Turned off because they think you must know ALL the lore before setting foot in Glorantha. (My anxious players)

I would:

1. Run them the Quickstart scenario with the pregens. Tell them they can create their own characters after they play the scenario, which will work as a way to get the feel of the system and its lethality. Explain them how easy is for a sword attack to disable an arm, a leg, or an abdomen. Optionally, just run a sample one-to-one combat with slightly superior adversaries. Tell them RQ places more importance on the PCs' communities they work to defend.

2. Looking for information before facing the problem is always a good idea, as you'll probably end up better prepared. I think most people ask their priestesses and priests or shamans for information though. Libraries exist in some cities, but are by no means common. As for the fear, send some minor minions agains them first, so they can get a feel for how combat works. If they prepare well and ambush their enemies, it should be much easier and they will feel more confident.

3. Tell them no one knows ALL the lore before setting foot in Glorantha. Players only need to pay attention to what the GM tells, and that does not need to be much. It is far better to learn the setting as you play, little by little. Every scenario can focus on a particular topic. This works specially well for adventurers who have never left the borders of their clan/city, as that narrows down what they need to know to their immediate surroundings and some important NPC. Also, the character background generation in the rulebook can be daunting, but just tell your players they can ask questions about anything that strikes their fancy, and the rest is not important (yet).

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

about the lore, an easy way is to propose players to play young before initiation. They are like their characters: they know what their parents/clan (you-gm) teached them

[g33k]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:13 PM, Imperial_Solaire said:

...
The same problem always comes up though, my players either

1. Go into this as a game where the PCs are the main characters of the world and fight everything with no plan and die. (The D&D players)
2. Are too scared to fight ANYTHING and want ask to do Library Use rolls. (The Call players)
3. Turned off because they think you must know ALL the lore before setting foot in Glorantha. (My anxious players)

My question to you folks is this.

How do you pitch this game to new/less experienced players. What is your session 0 like? And How do you guide your players in this world for the full experience?

Many peoples' explanations seem to lean-in on the "gods are real" element, but IMHO that's not the best route... it's true for a great many FRPG's (including most D&D worlds), so IMHO it isn't a stand-out.

Instead, I emphasize "everyone has a common form of magic -- called spirit-magic -- AND almost everyone has a deity (& religion/cult) who grants them more-powerful Rune-magic."  To me, the ubiquity of Cults (& various temple/cult/deity Passions!) is what stands out in this regard.  For the hardcore D&D-head, I might say "it's almost like everybody has a 1-or-2-level dip into a Divine-caster class, and many have more than that!"

Also, in lockstep with the Cult&Deity elements, I point to the fact that they're part of a community (clan, tribe, whatever), which interlinks with their cult/deity; the "lone wolf" trope and "murderhobo" habits aren't likely to serve them well in this world (although there are places where violence is expected, appropriate, and consequence-free, they occur as exceptions not the norm).

For your numbered points:

1.  For the D&D players -- specifically -- who are used to a degree of "script immunity" (or just D&D's programmatic  "each encounter should expend 25% of party resources, including HP's/healing" philosphy), I point explicitly to that as a designed-in D&D'ism which isn't true for RQ.  Then I do a quick mechanical breakdown, where I show that a slingstone Crit to the head is pretty much insta-kill for any PC.  Finally, I point out that both an offensive ambush and defensive retreat-to-regroup are winning tactics... and battlefield surrender/ransom is a real thing, and usually better than fighting to the death!  They can literally be walking down a road, miss a Spot roll for an ambush, and drop dead in the initial volley from the ambushers.

I might even go so far as to run a "gladiator" (pure combat) NPC session.  Give the players each a pre-gen, and run them in a stand-up fight against trollkin who outnumber the party by two or more.  Then run a combat where the trollkin open from ambush, magic-buff'ed & volleying sling-stones.

2.  For the CoC'ers, I stress that (a) it's the game-mechanics that are like CoC, not the setting; & (b) this is an adventure game with occasional resort to Lore roles, not a game where libraries are important (unless your PC is a Lhankor Mhy).  While Glorantha holds "unspeakable horrors" at the nigh-unkillable scale, they're generally remote and certainly not going to occur on this adventure... or the next... nor the one after... and can we just play already??!?  The foes you meet will be as mortal as you, with the same sorts of magic.  There generally won't be Mi-Go or Deep Ones lurking just offscreen, -- nor any Gloranthan equivalent -- with eldritch technomagic to crush their psyche's and mangle their bodies.

Also, for the CoC crowd, it's worth stressing the different uses of "Cult" -- in pantheistic Glorantha, it's the generic term for "followers of a deity," i.e. "religion."  But in CoC it's the secretive (and generally malevolent) worship of evil alien beings.

For both 1 & 2, I suggest starting with the cattle-raid out of the GM screen pack.  It's dangerous-enough to give the D&D'ers caution, and mundane-enough to reassure the CoC'ers.  (n.b. the "Broken Tower" quickstart game is also a cattle-raid, but  <spoilerized (highlight text to read)> the ancient blood-thirsty Earth-Goddess risks "triggering" your CoC players! </spoiler (highlight text to read)> )

3.  Facing lore-wary players, the mantra is, "YGMV; YGWV" -- Your Glorantha May Vary; Your Glorantha Will Vary.  The classic advice is to "start small, and grow," and stress that (a) they themselves can learn about the world in-play, exactly the way their PC's experience it, & (b) it's OK (expected!) for Your Glorantha to Vary, so if you "discover" a facet of your Glorantha has "varied," it's correct at your table.  And that is playing the game "right" -- as intended by the designers.

Begin your players all from one tribe or clan, a large stead or small town, etc (maybe suggest they NOT to pick a LM character unless they plan to do the reading to learn the whatever lore they want their PC to have scores in).  Inherently, these PCs will essentially be a bit insular and ignorant of the huge amount of world lore.

A Sartar tribe-member will be able to name all the Lightbringers (and a 1-line description of each), and a bit more for the Big Two (Orlanth & Ernalda), but probably few to NONE of the Seven Mothers, nor really anything about such details as Sedenya-worship vs 7M, or any other divisions within "Lunar" religion or culture, nor most others.  They will know quite a bit more about their own particular deity; I think it's fine to ask them to each read the section on their deity (beginning pg.288) from the Rune Cult chapter, and to at least skim any "Associated Cults" (that give theirs a Rune Spell or other benefit); and if you get the new Cults book, that entry as well.

They will know the Dragonrise, and that Dragonewts are somehow related to Dragons, and that old-time humans raised a huge army in a fuckup called the "Dragonkill" (attacking the Dragonewts), said army getting killed & eaten for their trouble.  They'll know Trolls as "Dark Men" with several varieties ranging from pathetic little trollkin to big tough "most" Trolls (aka dark-trolls) to "the really BIG ones" (largely without distinguishing between kinds of Really Big Trolls); dangerous, but can be dealt with.  They'll know weird plant-people "elves" live in the forests, and weird mechanistic "dwarves" under some mountains, and odd half-beast/half-man "beastmen" live in Beast Valley, because all these things are kind of "common knowledge" in the Dragon Pass region... but IMG most Sartarites have seldom (if ever) seen any of them (except the widely-seen Dragonrise!).  Unless of course they got an "Elder Race Lore" during character-creation.

When I get a group to settle on a common place-they-are-from (generally Sartar, Prax, or Esrolia, as those are the ones *I* am most comfortable with), or (for example) a 1-shot game (with ore-gen's) at a Con or FLGS... then I usually prep a 1-page "common knowledge" sheet.

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by g33k

[g33k]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:13 PM, Imperial_Solaire said:

...

How do you pitch this game to new/less experienced players. 

...

My "elevator pitch" is really two-fold; the setting of Glorantha, and the game-mechanics of RQ.

Glorantha is more inspired by the ancient-world than by medieval Europe.  It's more primal, more visceral.  It is more Gilgamesh and Odysseus and Old-Testament and Vedic India, than it is King Arthur and Norse/Celtic &c.  Everyone has at least some common "spirit" magic, but most gain more powerful spells from their deity.

Runequest has an elegant skills-based mechanic that has no "character classes" nor levels nor "XP;" your skills increase by pursuing the skill in use, or by formal training, and your HP's don't increase.  Get armor!  Crit or fumble shows in the first roll without "roll to confirm," and your odds of crit (and fumble) scale upwards (and downwards, respectively) as your skill improves.

Edited June 16, 2022 by g33k

[soltakss]

I've never done an elevator pitch. My gaming groups have all been RQ fans anyway.

What is the point of an elevator pitch? To provide a short idea of the good things and make the game appealing.

Personally, I wouldn't use terms like Bronze Age or real world references.

Instead, I would say that RuneQuest is a Heroic game, where you can go from Zero to Hero, can start as an established member of a clan, or start off as a lone wanderer. You can weave yourself into the mystic and magical world while adventuring. Everything is dangerous, but you can make friends among those who might be your enemies and enemies from those who might be your friends. Religion is important, as it defines who you are and how you should act. Your clan or tribe is important, as they define who you are. Your friends are important, as they might be the difference between living and dying. Come and walk the paths of heroes.

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by soltakss

[Lordabdul]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:13 PM, Imperial_Solaire said:

The same problem always comes up though, my players either

1. Go into this as a game where the PCs are the main characters of the world and fight everything with no plan and die. (The D&D players)
2. Are too scared to fight ANYTHING and want ask to do Library Use rolls. (The Call players)
3. Turned off because they think you must know ALL the lore before setting foot in Glorantha. (My anxious players)

This looks somewhat familiar to me 🙂

1. If you have played Call of Cthulhu with D&D players, you would have had the same problem. You can warn the players in session zero that combat is deadly, that you can always ransom enemies and that enemies would often ransom you, and that NPCs will hold grudges. If you are a "tough love" GM that would have no problem killing CoC PCs with a Dimensional Shambler or Great Old One, then you would probably also kill the RQ PCs with some Broo shaman or Crimson Bat, and then you tell the players to be more careful with their new PCs. If not, you can have the NPCs take the PCs hostage and ransom them back or send them to a Lunar slave camp or they're sold at Pimper's Block or whatever -- this might be the opportunity for a cool adventure, where they escape with new companions.

2. The Call of Cthulhu players tend to be very careful indeed. In my experience, they always try to get other people to do the dangerous stuff, asking for tribal thanes to go check out the dark creepy cave and such. The CoC way of solving this is to have those NPCs get killed, which makes things worse in many ways. I've heard some people let the players play the NPCs who get killed, like playing a quick one-shot or even just one scene with them. This might be a good way for players in this case to try their hand at combat while not putting their PCs in danger. They might like it. The other solution is that Library Use rolls require finding the right library, which means they might have to travel left and right to find the information -- and lo and behold, the PCs are adventuring! Maybe they're not getting into fights, but that's fine, it's still good story.

3. Tell them you don't know much more than them, and that you'll make shit up on the fly for all the stuff you don't know, so they better help out. It's very effective to let them take responsibility of their corner of the world. Is one of them a, say, Odayla initiate? Regardless of what you know about Odayla, keep it to a minimum, and tell the player that they can come up with everything else (either by inventing it or by reading up on Glorantha lore). So the player comes up with, say, what happens on Odaylan holy days, what a shrine looks like, and so on. The GM says "I know there's a Great Hunt at the end of the year, but I don't know anything about it... tell me what it's like?". This might create problems with players who freeze up when they need to participate in the story (rather than just play a role in it), so for those you just tell them what they need to know and try to keep it to a minimum again. It wouldn't be different to playing in any other known setting while being new to it.

[Pentallion]

I just had a thought for an introductory if you're playing Borderlands. The players are playing youngsters just initiated who have come with Duke Raus to the Grantlands. You all live in a small group of homesteads not far from where the Duke plans to build his fort. the adventure begins with smoke from a nearby homestead - the sign for help needed. Your group lights the fire so that the Duke will know to send aid. Meanwhile, one parent of each players character goes off to see if they can help. They run smack dab into a broo raid. the players get to play one of their PCs parents and find out how combat works without risking their own character but still having a big stake in the outcome.

[JRE]

Never tried to attract D&D players. In my experience they are among the less willing to experiment. Usually they have the whole path to level 20 planned in advance. My main recruiting pool was CoC players, and they were quite easy.

The rules are like CoC, but here you are expected to use magic and strike back against the monsters. And there are deities that give you even more magic. The fighting back really gets them going. Ah, and no sanity rolls.