Archery HR questions

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

**This topic probably comes up every once in a while, I sorry if it's a rehash of a conversation that you already had**

**I don't have any idea about how real life bow and arrows work**

I see the bow rules and they seem to be made from a list of disjointed situations like:
"Someone can shot an arrow every 5 seconds"
"Someone can shot an arrow at 250m"
"Someone can hit a head size target 19 out 20 times at the Olympics"
"Arrows can pierce mail/plate"

So the rules try to be a mash up to acomodate all those, then a "master archer" can hit 19 out of 20 times a human sized target at 120 meters, twice per melee round at full damage.

Let's challenge that.

https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk
Extremely fast shooting, not far, not pulling the whole extension of the bow.
There are several examples on YouTube https://youtube.com/shorts/AL1W3HkjJ2Y?feature=share these are all half draw bow shots, fast but not hard hitting and totally not 120 meters range.

This is an 120 meter shot, https://youtu.be/sjnG-5N5nL0 there is no way he is shooting 19 out of 20 arrows that far every 5 seconds.
This one is 300m https://youtu.be/L-pZgHZp2ug and you can quickly tell this is not twice per melee round with a bone and wood bow.

"But he is not an Olympic archer!" You say, well, yes, let's see how far Olympic archers (95%?) shoot

- Archers shoot up to a distance of 70 metres (for recurve) and 50 metres (for compound)

(Notice that compound bow means with pulleys and multiple strings, modern tech, not just "made with bones" and the ones on my bronze age glorantha are most likely not those or the 14th century English longbows)

Ok, so not 120 meters at full %, or 250 meters at half % (which is a fair guesstimate, you are just not expecting to hit a single target, just shooting at troops I guess https://youtu.be/Gg2WImjzaAw )

So I'm planing on house ruling this and I want your opinion.

1- I would love to add half damage modifier to Bows based on weight.

2- Strongly enforce the rules for moving targets, shooting at melee and weather conditions. If the target is alive you are probably shooting at x1/2%, target practice x1%

3-
Field archery or half draw - 20 or 30 meters effective range, up to twice that at 1/2%, twice per round (even 3 times maybe? If you can) One step down on damage (1d4+1 for self) no strength damage mod (see 1)

Target practice or Full draw - 70 meters effective, full damage, once per round. (Damage mod for heavier bows)

Long range, above 70m you can take as much as you want to aim and get the "taking your time bonus", 1/2 % for being above effective range, no damage mod , full damage one shot per round.

Clout archery , up to twice the max range, once per round, half %, no damage mod, one step down damage (used in formation mostly)

On a horse you can use the field archery option.

Thank you in advance for any feedback, more than half of our group uses bows and I want to add some color to it.

[JRE]

The practical ranges are certainly different between mass archery in the battlefield, where you use angle shooting and you target an area and not an individual target, and direct shooting. I have very limited experience shooting bows, and only small pull modern composite bows with counterweights.  

Modern hunters with compound bows usually consider practical maximum ranges of 30-60 meters, with a modern bow with trigger release, and draw strengths similar to historical composite bows, though the pull assist effect of the compound bow allows extended aiming that is impossible with a primitive bow. 

That said, we are in a heroic game with magic support, so I suppose they can go beyond what we consider normal.

My own House Rules, which complicate it a lot, so it may be too much color.

Bows are rated by strength bonus. You can use with no difficulty any bow with a damage rating below yours. That is what you use for fast shooting. Using a bow at your rating requires an extra 3 SR, just to make sure DEX 20 people only shoot once per round a heavy bow (two the first round if ready). You will also need assistance, either human or mechanical, to string your bow. You cannot use a bow stronger than your bonus. Most bows will be -1d4 or 0 bonus, but you can find relatively easy +1d4 bows. Getting a +2d6 bow made should be epic in itself. Obviously the bow damage bonus modifies the arrow damage. The stat requirements are for a 0 DB bow, and the STR requirement increases or decreases by 2 per Damage bonus step. So a STR 11, SIZ 15 character could use a +1d4 self bow (a long bow, I suppose), but only a -1d4 composite bow. 

I have four ranges for archery. Point blank (or Too close!) up to 3 meters, half the skill. Effective 3 to 40, modified by damage bonus (0 is 40, each damage level up or down adds or subtracts 10 meters), Long, double that and half the skill, and Extreme, which requires angle and drop shooting, up to 5 times the effective rating, and quarter the skill rating. I do not allow evading at effective range, unless your speed is higher than 12. I do not add any special range to composite bows. Self bows double in weight with each DB increase, while composite bows do not increase in size with additional damage.

What makes extreme shooting viable is that most modifiers are applied after the skill modification (except for arrow trance that obviously changes the skill, so it is not a modifier). And you have Sureshot, that will almost always hit, though you need to roll any special or critical with the modified skill. 

Aiming. For projectiles (including thrown weapons) I add +10% modifier per additional projectile the same MR to the same target, so a 100% archer (1/6/11) at extreme range against an immobile target, using speedart in the third arrow, would have To hit numbers of 25%, 35% and 60%. Alternately I allow to hold the aim 1 MR per 2 STR over the minimum. Crossbows can aim indefinitely, so I add +10% per round aiming. Without optical aids the maximum aim bonus is +10 at Extreme, +30 at Long and +50 at effective distance. So yes, I have Dwarf sharpshooters with optic sights.

Crossbows do not use damage bonus, but you can build a stronger crossbow and require a longer loading period. Each extra dice adds +2MR, +2 to MIN STR and +1 ENC. To make it systematic my Arbalests do 3d6+2, as they are a bulked up heavy crossbow. A heavy arbalest goes to 4d6+2 DMG, STR 15, 1/7MR, ENC 4, and so on. I halve the Effective range of crossbows compared to the rulebook, and each build up increases 15 meters the effective range.

Slings do not have damage bonus, but aim like bows and have an effective range of 40. Due to the poor flight characteristics of shot  in angle shooting, Long is only 50% more (60) and extreme is only three times effective range (120). Lead sling shots add +1 damage and if purpose built (not chewed up bolgs) add 10 to effective range.

I do not allow point blank shooting with slings, but you can hit with it in melee as a flail , with damages of 1d6 (sling) or 1d8 (staff sling).

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

. So yes, I have Dwarf sharpshooters with optic sights.

It was the logical evolution!

[Baron Wulfraed]

5 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

(Notice that compound bow means with pulleys and multiple strings, modern tech, not just "made with bones" and the ones on my bronze age glorantha are most likely not those or the 14th century English longbows)

You appear to be conflating "compound bow" with "composite bow".

• Compound bow: elliptical pulleys allowing for a pull-weight let-off at full draw -- typically 30-50% reduction, which makes it much easier to hold and aim, but since the full pull-weight only appears at mid-draw and release, the arrow is accelerated at the lower pull up through the peak draw weight (so may have shorter range).
• Composite bow: bow limbs made by laminating two or three different materials -- (for three, the middle one is likely wood). Bone which resists compression and sinew which resists stretching. Some of the eastern Mediterranean composite bows were quite short -- maybe 2-3 feet. When unstrung they would look like a C, strung they look like } (I did not reverse the "opening" -- the tips of the C have to be bent all the way around to the left side to form the recurve shape)
• "Self" bow (English longbow and kin): typically quite long -- 4-5 feet would not be amiss. Formed from a carefully shaped single piece of flexible wood.

Composite and Self bows have a steadily increasing pull-weight as one draws the bow back (and the pull-weight really stacks up as one reaches near the breaking point of the bow). As a result, arrows undergo the greatest acceleration immediately upon release, with the acceleration decreasing as the bow straightens out.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

56 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

You appear to be conflating "compound bow" with "composite bow".

Yes, there are no compound bows on our game, I mentioned them because they were on the article I was quoting. 

[Darius West]

On 6/20/2022 at 7:46 PM, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Let's challenge that.

Challenging what most people can do with a bow by bringing up Lars Andersen videos.  Where have I seen this before?  I would suggest you get yourself off to the Society of Creative Anachronism and do some shooting of your own to get a proper sense of what is possible.  Lars Andersen is a bit of a marvel, a brilliant athlete and bow sportsman, and might be considered something of a hero level archer by Gloranthan standards.  Lars claims that he has recovered techniques from Turkic horse archers and the Plains Tribes of America, and I don't dispute the possibility based on what has been written about them.  They were cultures with a lot of master archers.  In Glorantha we call what Lars does spirit magic like "multimissile".

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

9 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Challenging what most people can do with a bow by bringing up Lars Andersen videos.  Where have I seen this before?  I would suggest you get yourself off to the Society of Creative Anachronism and do some shooting of your own to get a proper sense of what is possible.  Lars Andersen is a bit of a marvel, a brilliant athlete and bow sportsman, and might be considered something of a hero level archer by Gloranthan standards.  Lars claims that he has recovered techniques from Turkic horse archers and the Plains Tribes of America, and I don't dispute the possibility based on what has been written about them.  They were cultures with a lot of master archers.  In Glorantha we call what Lars does spirit magic like "multimissile".

I'm really bad at this part of translating the real world to rules, I would gladly leave that to the game rules but like I've said we have 3 archers a Sling thrower and a Javelin one.

I would like to add a little regarding archery play styles, there is a long talk about short swords here, this is the weapon we use, we would like to have a long bow archer with damage but slow and a fast, mobile one that disrupts the field, stuff like that.

But you are right, I should do something else, other than this.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 6/20/2022 at 11:46 AM, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

"But he is not an Olympic archer!" You say, well, yes, let's see how far Olympic archers (95%?) shoot

- Archers shoot up to a distance of 70 metres (for recurve) and 50 metres (for compound)

 

 they shoot to 70 meters, and they hit the target center ( 10 points = 12cm ) very often. The 70meters is the distance for the show ( a high score is needed, the wahou effect), it is not a  capacity limit.

20seconds max for each arrow, to hit 12cm at 70m. But the time is to target these 12cm, not just to shoot the 1,2m target.

When I used bow, (as a hobby, absolutly not as a champion), I needed only few seconds to shoot (ok my skill was between 25 and 30% 😛 ) then more to concentrate again myself (time to see if I touched and enjoyed the yellow, the red,... the white... or where is this f@@@ arrow ?) but good warriors don't need this "hobby time" , the only thing they see is if they killed the ennemy or not

how many seconds are needed to hit a full body (1,6m x 1m) for these guys at 200m ?

 

but I agree for those who wants more simulation, some adding rules about targeting a specific part of a body, what about armor, what about distance and dammage / accuracy / movement / armor etc.. may be created . Same with closed weapons by the way.

 

the big issue, for me, is the pleasure of the players.

If you give too many penalties , if they can hit only 1 time every 5 fights (and after the hit, there is the armor... so how many HP damage they really do), wich is probably the IRL case, will they be happy to play a bowman or a slinger ?

So I prefer to follow the rules as is. I will add some house rules for tournament (you need to be the best, not to kill the guy before round 3) or very specific action (Want to hit the eye, etc...), but for a fight, I follow the rules not because they modelize real life, but because they give opportunities to succeed when real life does'nt.

but that is my taste, and other players and gm would be happy to have less success.

[JRE]

There are two aims in the house rules I listed above, which are almost the same we used in RQ3.

1. Besides range, if you do not want to complicate your life (make all bows 0 DB) the rules work as the basic ones. And we seldom have archery duels at long distance.

2. If the player wants, they can really invest time in their bow, choose whether they want to shoot fast, or to hit harder, and even make a bow to use when magic enhanced. A hunter (STR 15, SIZ 13 that casts Bear Strength would have STR 30, so it feels weird that his javelins have +2d6 damage while his bow remains just the same. With this rules he will need a new bow when strong, and new arrows, but that would allow him to shoot further (Effective range goes to 70) and hitting harder. Or he could take a +1D6 bow, to shoot faster or just to be able to use it with Strength, and save rune pool. More character options. 

My players tend to focus first on projectiles, as the risk is lower than in melee, and that meant arranging long distance ambushes, not for the surprise itself, but the free shooting till the foes got close. These rules gave them different options while also not allowing them to turn the enemies into pincushions with impunity (unless you make this a sharpshooter duel) by decreasing the effective range.

[Shiningbrow]

The funny thing about archery, compared to other weapons, is that it's a bit harder to sometimes hit harder, sometimes hit softer. Because the draw is almost always (bar either speed archery, or over-drawing) being taken from the cheek/chin, the DB should be a flat single number - not a range of numbers.

Thoughts???

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The funny thing about archery, compared to other weapons, is that it's a bit harder to sometimes hit harder, sometimes hit softer. Because the draw is almost always (bar either speed archery, or over-drawing) being taken from the cheek/chin, the DB should be a flat single number - not a range of numbers.

Thoughts???

RAW, bows have no DB. We've played since 30 years that they use half DB, but this is just a houserule.

[Shiningbrow]

22 minutes ago, Kloster said:

RAW, bows have no DB. We've played since 30 years that they use half DB, but this is just a houserule.

I think they definitely should.

Taking an arrow from a 15 pound bow is vastly different to being hit in the chest with a 150 pound bow...

 

 

(well, ok, the arrow fired from one... just hitting someone with a bow doesn't do that much..)

[Kloster]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think they definitely should.

Taking an arrow from a 15 pound bow is vastly different to being hit in the chest with a 150 pound bow...

 

 

(well, ok, the arrow fired from one... just hitting someone with a bow doesn't do that much..)

Agreed.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would not use a damage bonus for some "mechanical" (?) weapon. I prefer to say :

this weapon needs min dex and min str to be used at its maximal power. This power is what rules say.

however you may find an "upgraded" weapon (stronger wood for bow, even metal bow, why not) and this weapon will provide more damage

of course any "level" of weapon requires more dex and str than the previous one

 

so yes if you are strong enough (strong = STR, or some runic ability or what you want) to use this legendary bow you will deliver 3d6 damage

 

so it is about the same effect than including DB but it seems to me more epic (noone can use this bow except you because noone is as powerful as you, so you are a "hero").

[Joerg]

 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The funny thing about archery, compared to other weapons, is that it's a bit harder to sometimes hit harder, sometimes hit softer. Because the draw is almost always (bar either speed archery, or over-drawing) being taken from the cheek/chin, the DB should be a flat single number - not a range of numbers.

Thoughts???

The damage bonus should be part of the adjusted bow damage, really. People have bows made for their specifications and the use they want it for. You wouldn't hunt geese or snipes with a war bow or bodkin arrows.

Nobody in their right mind would draw to their cheek and hold the arrow in the target for long with any ancient bow, however. Olympic archery uses rather lightweight bows with even lighter weight arrows to achieve that kind of accuracy, or you can have the force reduction cheat of a modern compound bow with a-centric rolls.

The heavier the bow, the less time you want to spend at full draw. (Again excepting modern compound bows with their different force curve - forget most of what you have seen or experienced with those "bicycle" bows for ancient archery.)

Most archers using ancient equipment will shoot instinctively, a single movement to draw and release without long aiming on the target. It is still possible to aim with such a technique, much like it is possible to aim a strike with a blade or an axe. In those cases you don't hold the blade in position endlessly, either...

With a lighter bow and high requirements for accuracy, you can align your bow with the target. Rarely the arrow tip, though - while string-walking is a common technique in barebow field archery, you need a fairly long bow string for that, and the further down your grip walks the less clean you will release the string, creating unnecessary extra vibrations that may hinder your accuracy.

Face-walking is another barebow technique to allow aiming over the arrow tip. In that case, you move your anchor point up and down on your cheek. Doing so may de-stabilize your ideal force line from bow hand to shoulder, and draw length may vary for soft anchors (other than bony parts of your face).

Arrows fly in a visibly parabolic curve. If you aim along the shaft (anchoring above the cheek bone) and align the arrow tip with the target, the arrow will drop below that targeted spot.

 

Effective draw length may vary depending on whether you shoot uphill or down from a platfom, and what contortions you subject your body while drawing/releasing. Exhaustion may shorten your draw length after a while if you have been shooting slightly above your weight class. With some experience, you can compensate for that, but accuracy and maximum range will suffer.

Other factors may influence draw weight - temperature and humidity will influence both the bow and the string.

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The funny thing about archery, compared to other weapons, is that it's a bit harder to sometimes hit harder, sometimes hit softer. Because the draw is almost always (bar either speed archery, or over-drawing) being taken from the cheek/chin, the DB should be a flat single number - not a range of numbers.

Thoughts???

If you want to go all physicist about it, the Damage Bonus should depend on both (strength and bow material) and range.   (And longer heavier arrows will have better ballistics as well as more mass.)  It's my understanding that an arrow is a high drag projectile, and the visibly parabolic trajectory also supports the deduction that your arrow slows down.  So if, for instance, you get a 6 point damage bonus at short range maybe it should  be 3 at medium range and 1 at long range.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

  So if, for instance, you get a 6 point damage bonus at short range maybe it should  be 3 at medium range and 1 at long range.

Oh, certainly!

I was just putting the initial thought out there to see how it floats.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Oh, certainly!

I was just putting the initial thought out there to see how it floats.

That would also begin to account for the difference between using  square cross section metal  points at close range to pierce armor, versus using the cheaper and flatter Flint or bone points in mass high angle shooting at long range against large bodies of lightly armored troops.

So if I were to house rule it I think I would do a combination of higher quality higher STR requirement bow with a damage bonus, with a reduction in damage for longer ranges.

This gives you the option to have Odysseus' bow in the game, which only he is strong enough to string.  And it's extra deadly when he is killing the suitors in his hall, which is close range.  But you are not giving every peasant militiaman the same extraordinary weapon and allowing them mass fire piercing armor with hundreds of them at 200 meters.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Added paragraph

[Baron Wulfraed]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If you want to go all physicist about it, the Damage Bonus should depend on both (strength and bow material) and range.   (And longer heavier arrows will have better ballistics as well as more mass.)  It's my understanding that an arrow is a high drag projectile, and the visibly parabolic trajectory also supports the deduction that your arrow slows down.  So if, for instance, you get a 6 point damage bonus at short range maybe it should  be 3 at medium range and 1 at long range.

I'd probably end up with two tables for bows then...

Bow Table (with entries for "self" and "composite" bows -- maybe also "elf" bows though they already have so many oddities).

Bow built for non-standard draw weight (where standard draw weight is assumed for the bows and min STR shown in the weapon table) and only usable by the designed draw strength and above

• for each point of strength BELOW base: subtract 1pt from damage
• for each point of strength ABOVE base: add 1pt to damage

Maybe make groupings: for every m-points of STR below/above: subtract/add n-points of damage.

This could affect cost of replacement arrows, as mismatched arrow spine could affect usage. Too stiff for the draw weight may divert to the side (I doubt any bronze age bows are "center shot" designs, so there is already the inherent "head of arrow is aimed to the outside of where the tail is when drawn"). Too soft for the draw weight and the arrow will "vibrate" in flight, flexing left and right, as the shaft is compressed some on release [the string pushes the tail forward before the head begins to move].*

Then add a range effect table, adding 1D<something> for close range, and subtracting 1D<something> for extreme range. No modifier for mid-range.

 

* I had such an example in my college days. The campus supplied bows were mostly fiberglass recurve bows of slightly higher class than the beginner bows bound in department stores -- pull weights varied from around 20lb to maybe 35lb. Arrows were similar low-end assortment. Thing is, the archery "course" tended to be offered early in the fall term, and was often used as a warm-up for hunting season. About half the class brought their own hunting grade (laminated/composite?) wood recurve or compound bows tuned for 50=75lb pull. While not a hunter, I was in that second half -- a cheap Outers compound bow cranked up to 50lbs [unfortunately, on that bow draw weight and draw length were inversely linked -- and the length was a hair short for best cheek weld]. I ended up with one of the low-spine campus arrows [what -- risk losing an expensive aluminum hunting arrow in the weeds of that field?] and observed move [from my standing position] an apparent three targets to the left, arc back about two targets to the right, and then arc left to hit the target I was aiming at. Just lucky coincidence that the wave length in flight matched the shooting distance. I rapidly concluded that arrow was unsafe to use in my bow.

On the other end of the scale, one of the girls kept choosing the weakest campus bow. It was so weak even she was drawing to behind her ear -- and was practically thowing the arrow at the target as her release included flicking her hand forward, not just opening fingers.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Not sure about "reality", but I fear that giving more than a +1 damage to a "strong" bow will be unbalancing.  Bows already seem very effective against modestly armored opponents.  Two shots a round, can't be parried.  Are you finding that missile fire is "too ineffective" in your games?  

[Baron Wulfraed]

I did suggest maybe putting the +/- points into strength groupings... Maybe every three or four points of strength gets a 1pt damage adjustment. Can't be worse than ideas to apply 1/2X or 1X personal damage die roll (IF the bow is recorded as built for user's strength rating).