List of superheroes (including dead ones)

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The best current information is what Jeff posted on FB a few months back and is recorded in the Well of Daliath.

Allocating Your Unconscious Life I – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Allocating Your Unconscious Life II – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Jar-eel again – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Runequest distinguishes three basic levels of spiritual participation in a cult – lay member (casual), initiate (dedicated), Rune Master (professional). Another way of thinking about it is how much of our Unconscious Life is devoted to a particular cult or thing. So let’s imagine what percentage of our unconscious life is dedicated to specific pursuits.

• Maintaining contact with a major deity like Orlanth or Ernalda require at least 5% of your unconscious (minimum required for adulthood initiation). But full contact, like being an initiate, requires 20% of your unconscious. So let’s say Vasana has 20% – 5% with Orlanth in general, and 15% with VInga Adventurous.
• A minor deity takes up 5-15% of your unconscious.
• An allied spirit takes up another 10%. Each bound spirit is another 2%. Dealing with ancestors and those sorts of community rites are at least another 5%. This isn’t the Daka Fal cult- that’s a minor deity – but just what a community does to revere those who went before them.
• Spirit magic. That also takes up unconscious life – let’s say usually somewhere between 10 and 15%.
• Personal Power. Everyone has some inner reserve which is used to protect oneself and one’s ego. Let’s say 10%. Let’s say Vasana has 15% in that.
• Dream. In a sense all of the other categories determine the shapes one’s dreams take, but this is the stuff that outside our control. Minimum of 10% to keep your sanity. Lets say Vasana puts 25% in Dreams.
• Undifferentiated. This is what you don’t know and can’t know. At least 10%. A few mystic traditions try to get this to 100% so that they Know. Let’s say Vasana has 25% in that as well.

So with Vasana, we already have about 50% of her unconscious life allocated to specific spiritual pursuits, with the rest being daydreaming or undifferentiated. She’s pretty concentrated and focused on spiritual things, but almost half her unconscious is either undifferentiated or dreaming.

Now let’s say she becomes a Rune Lord. That knocks things up another 10% likely coming out of her undifferentiated self – that allied spirit is a part of her unconscious! She then becomes a heroquester, knocking things up another 10%, as she tries to organize cult activities around her explorations – that comes out of her undifferentiated self and her dreams.Add in a few more spirits and pretty soon her unconscious is fully devoted to spiritual pursuits. There’s really nothing more that she can do!
Now the point of that thought experiment is to show that our adventurers are already pretty spiritually developed characters.

We could imagine Alvin the Ordinary. He’s doing the minimum necessary to function spiritually within his society:

• 5% to Orlanth
• 5% to the ancestors
• 10% to personal power
• 5% for spirit magic
• 25% for dreaming
• 50% is Undifferentiated.

Alvin is more like us moderns than we are like Vasana!

So you can see a big difference here. We call Alvin a Lay Member and Vasana an Initiate, but really it is how much of their unconscious self they are dedicating to spiritual pursuits.

...

So yesterday I compared Vasana, our budding heroine, with Alvin the Ordinary. Today, let’s compare Argrath with Harrek.

Argrath actually dedicates most of his unconscious self to things other than himself:

• Dream 15% – Argrath is more of a dreamer that most people.
• Undifferentiated 10% – this is that bit that Argrath doesn’t and can’t know. He’s a mortal after all.
• Orlanth 25%, divided between Orlanth, Adventurous, and Rex.
• Dragon stuff 10% (Dragontooth Runners, etc.)
• White Bull 10%
• Personal Power 20%
• Other Spirits 10%

So in terms of personal aggrandisement, Argrath is about on the same level as Vasana or other Orlanthi hero-types. More than half of the mana he receives goes to Orlanth, Draconic stuff, the White Bull, or other spirits. About a third goes to personal power and dreaming. Now admittedly his is a MUCH BIGGER pie than someone like Vasana, but he divides it up in a more or less normal way.

Harrek is different.

• White Bear 30%
• Dream 10%
• Undifferentiated 10%
• Personal Power 50%

With Harrek almost everything goes to his personal power and to his White Bear self. And given how HUGE the mana pool he gets to play around with must be, that Personal Power lets him do stuff like kill with a glance.

Jar-eel is similar to Harrek, not Argrath.

• Personal Power 50%
• Bloodspillers 20%
• Dream 10%
• Undifferentiated 10%
• Red Goddess 10%

So with Jar-eel about half goes to her personal aggrandisement, and another 20% goes to her Sardukar Guard. This actually shows a nice and tidy way of distinguishing between superheroes and mere heroes. Heroes are lifted by others and those others share in their rewards. Superheroes have gotten to the point that they don’t need those others any more and have broken out of that system.

 Isn’t Jar-Eel much more grounded in the Lunar way and culture than Harrek is in, well, anything? She is a superhero of The Empire, not a pirate? Jar-eel has broken out of that mold every bit as much as Harrek has. She has a symbiotic relationship with the Empire, but then again, Harrek has something similar with Argrath and his kingdom.

Should characters use some of their subconscious for their loves? e.g. Should Jar-eel have 10% Beat Pot or similar? no. That all falls within the undifferentiated and dreaming self.

Despite – or perhaps because of – being widely worshiped in the Lunar Empire as the incarnation of the Red Goddess, Jar-eel’s mana primarily goes to her own personal aggrandisement, and another 20% goes to her Sardukar Guard. Sure she defends the Lunar Empire, but at least in part because it is a resource that enables her to do great things, but HER great things are the ultimate purpose of the empire, not vice versa.

Thinking of Jar-eel in this manner helps make her tick for me. She’s already proven her independence and autonomy from both the Red Emperor and the Red Goddess – you better accommodate her desires, because you are not going to stop her.

At least not unless you have your own superhero on your side.

 

Yes, I read that.

It's not a definition of Hero/Superhero. It has only 1 distinguishing feature suggested between them - and somehow, I doubt that's sufficient. Certainly, no-one has really argued (effectively) for that being sufficient.

(also, anyone watching The Boys?)

[Joerg]

You can argue against using the WBRM features, but they still are on the table. And that "50% to personal power" might be part of the reply.

Can deities become superheroes? If we are to trust the information on Androgeus in Sandy's Gods War board game, yes, they can, if they underwent a descension (anti-ascension). Androgeus was a lot worse in the Gods War than he is now, she lost or dispersed a lot of his power, but she retained his free will despite the Compromise. She is rather unique in that.

(And that was using the correct gender pronouns - alive in Gloranthan publications since 1975...)

Capital H heroes receive worship, which may be gamed out as magical support they can draw on in heroquests, turning that into heroic powers, some of which may be shared with their worshippers - whether as a special rune spell like Trea Leaping or Tree Chopping for minor heroes, or whether as a power used to protect or otherwise further their supporters.

As for Argrath, I think that a certain part of his efforts went into upholding the Proximate Holy Realm and using it for his ultimate goals. Argrath does not become the next Belintar, or does he?

Harrek is building a kingdom of his own, taking over the Pujaleg Empire in Laskal and Banamba. But he gets tired of the tedium there and drops it when his best frenemy calls him to bash the Lunar Empire once again. The empire in Laskal is just another temporary boon.

Jar-eel doesn't become empress. She might raise the next moon.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

but... is it really meaningful to know who is superhero or hero ?

from my perspective, what the glorantha people think is more "is it a god or a hero more powerful than those I know ?"

what rqg gamers needs is more what are the powers I can use and how someone can gain them ? (so not a binary point on my left hero, on my right super hero)

 

Is there a significant difference, from a background perspective or a gameplay perspective ? I really don't know (well maybe because I never saw any difference

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

You can argue against using the WBRM features, but they still are on the table

I'm against using WBRM features because they are only on some people's table, not everyone's! And so, if you use features that people don't have a reference for, then it's meaningless. (eg, I have no idea what the !! is supposed to mean... nor do I know what the significance of the numbers in the corners represent). So, because this is the general Glorantha thread, and not the WBRM thread, I suggest keeping references to that game to a minimum, or to explain them clearer.

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Can deities become superheroes?

Until we get a full, working definition of both words (and for 'hero' ... with and without a capital H),  it's a moot point.... (I think this is the 3rd time I've written this idea....)

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm against using WBRM features because they are only on some people's table, not everyone's!

I'm not sure there is anything in strict in-print RQ:G cana that implies the existence of capital-H Heroes, let alone SuperHeroes. I think Leika Ballista is the most powerful human NPC with stats, and the Crimson Bat the most powerful relevant monster.

It's only the boardgame that implies there are individuals who can 1v1 the Crimson Bat in melee. The distinction between a Hero and a Superhero is largely that between 'has a chance against the Bat' versus 'would reliably expect to win'.

Without that, everything in canon works if the top NPCs are more or less peers of Leika, with perhaps only Harrek or Jar-Eel being out of her wieght class (i.e. more than a 50% skill difference).  Any discrepancies from that interpretation in background material like King of Sartar can be chalked up to exagerations in the telling.

 

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm against using WBRM features because they are only on some people's table, not everyone's!

By that reckoning, you should be against using RuneQuest features because they are only on some people's table, too.

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And so, if you use features that people don't have a reference for, then it's meaningless. (eg, I have no idea what the !! is supposed to mean... nor do I know what the significance of the numbers in the corners represent).

That's an "interesting" argument. References are available, even "in print".

These numbers have (sensibly) been used and explained in Martin Helsdon's Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass, which (other than WBRM/Dragon Pass) gives the context of the setting. WBRM is one of the foundational documents for Gloranthan canon, not just the rules but also the expanding material Greg wrote on the features of that game which Martin used for many of the unit descriptions.

 

If you have read the Composite History of Dragon Pass, you have read something like game reports from WBRM - the concept of center and the two flanks is inherent in the rule that only the top three full units of any stack get to attack on the front line.

RuneQuest is to WBRM what Chainmail -> OD&D was to tabletop warfare games. It is the rpg to go adventuring on the gameboard.

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, because this is the general Glorantha thread, and not the WBRM thread, I suggest keeping references to that game to a minimum, or to explain them clearer.

Ask nicely, and you'll be answered.

The four corners of a counter may have numbers or other symbols in them.

Top left is the combat factor.

Foot militia typically has 3, horse militia has 4, heavy cavalry has 5 or 6, phalanxes usually have 5. Lunar magicians and many skirmishers have 1 or 2.

Some units have their combat factor in brackets. These aren't full units but small bands of heroic fighters, like the Praxian khans or the capital H heroes and the three superheroes in the game. Their presence doesn't occupy an entire flank of the battle formation, and thus their combat factors are added to the combat total of the "stack" (the forces inside a hex).

The exclamation mark is the leadership bonus, the boost a regular unit gets from being stacked with (fighting alongside) the hero or superhero. Each exclamation mark is worth one combat strength. With standard militia having a 3 in combat and magical resistance, a single exclamation mark already is a significant boost. Normal capital H heroes and Praxian tribal khans have a single exclamation mark in their combat factor, superheroes and Ethilrist have two. Normally only the highest number of leadership factors is used, but superheroes accompanied by their Best Friend hero unit add up to three bonus factors per unit.

Skirmishing units have one or more asterisks in their combat factor. Effects of skirmishers are resolved before the melee and may cause both attacker and defender to make last minute reorganisations, or rarely even eliminate stacks.

Some units have a h in their combat factor. These are herds, not combat units. Herds don't usually attack, but may stampede if attacked and disrupted.

Some units have a t in their combat factor. These are treasures. Some treasures affect the combat factor of their stacks, others don't.

Some units (usually spirits) don't have anything in their combat factor - they cannot engage or be engaged in melee combat.

Top right is the magic factor, the cohesiveness of the unit when attacked by spirits. Units with a range factor (bottom right) other than empty may even strike back. There are a number of qualifiers for the magic factor, but not really relevant in this context.

Bottom left is the movement factor, the number of hexes the unit may move in a turn. Various qualifiers are possible, including an underline which ignores all terrain effects (possessed by hero units). Treasures usually don't have a movement factor, or a negative one (slowing down the associated unit).

Bottom right is the range factor possessed by magical units. These units can strike back against attacking spirits, or use spirit magic against other hexes.

 

Capital H heroes in WBRM have numeric combat factors of 4, with two slightly weaker exceptions and a stronger Inhuman King (IIRC). Khans in Nomad Gods have a combat factor of 1. Superheroes have a numeric combat factor of 20.

Enough context?

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Until we get a full, working definition of both words (and for 'hero' ... with and without a capital H),  it's a moot point.... (I think this is the 3rd time I've written this idea....)

AFAICT there won't be any lawyer-proof full definition, but there are a couple of usable criteria, among others on the Well of Daliath from Jeff's Facebook shares, and quite a few older ideas which sort of work in Arcane Lore.

While heroquest rules for RQG are under development, I sincerely doubt that we are going to see a book on superhero questing.

 

[Shiningbrow]

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

AFAICT there won't be any lawyer-proof full definition, but there are a couple of usable criteria, among others on the Well of Daliath from Jeff's Facebook shares, and quite a few older ideas which sort of work in Arcane Lore

I think I'll bow out of this thread now (but start a new one), as I'm getting too frustrated with the lack of willingness to define terms, while having confident opinions expressed without much supporting reason. (And by the reactions that I get when I keep asking for these, I'm not the only one.)

 

 

[EricW]

On 6/28/2022 at 10:58 PM, Joerg said:

Those are qualifications for a demigod or full deity, and that's the path that Argrath ends up on. Maybe a similar weight class, but different from the superhero qualifications, hence not a superhero.

Fighting Harrek to a standstill makes Argrath a god?

I agree by the end Argrath was operating at a high level, but presumably at some point he at least transitioned through being a superhero, however briefly.

Maybe he was “more god than man” after he learned the godlearner secret?

Edited June 29, 2022 by EricW

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/28/2022 at 8:49 PM, jajagappa said:

Runequest distinguishes three basic levels of spiritual participation in a cult – lay member (casual), initiate (dedicated), Rune Master (professional). Another way of thinking about it is how much of our Unconscious Life is devoted to a particular cult or thing. So let’s imagine what percentage of our unconscious life is dedicated to specific pursuits.

Is it just me, or does this seem like a much stronger and far more interesting way to keep track of your character's spiritual obligations than the "10 % of time and money" system? It's begging for a rules implementation!

Edited June 30, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, EricW said:

Fighting Harrek to a standstill makes Argrath a god?

No. At least not as a defining feature - think "conspiration to tear the Red Moon apart".

 

13 hours ago, EricW said:

I agree by the end Argrath was operating at a high level, but presumably at some point he at least transitioned through being a superhero, however briefly.

Why take that unnecessary detour? He could have become a true dragon instead.

Other than the Volcano twin high priests who founded the cult of Caladra and Aurelion, I find it very hard to point at godlearners achieving apotheosis.

[Darius West]

On 6/27/2022 at 7:51 AM, Jeff said:

No, I don't think he is.

Argrath literally killed all the Gods, on purpose, to usher in an age of humans.  He is also the actual reincarnation of Arkat.  He's unequivocally a superhero by the end imo.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is it just me, or does this seem like a much stronger and far more interesting way to keep track of your character's spiritual obligations that the "10 % of time and money" system? It's begging for a rules implementation!

I really want an official rules implementation. A Johnstown compendium product could work but as a core part of how the characters interact with the setting it would really benefit from the polish that Chaosium provides. Hopefully it will be part of the GM book.

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Argrath literally killed all the Gods, on purpose, to usher in an age of humans.  He is also the actual reincarnation of Arkat.  He's unequivocally a superhero by the end imo.

According to one extremely cryptic source, Argrath allowed his trickster to sacrifice the participants of the ritual of the Net to Kajabor by sabotaging the rite.

Quite obviously this did not happen on his LBQ that brought back Sheng Seleris, as there still were Old Gods involved when he sabotaged the Kalikos quest about a dozen years later. And it might be argued that Argrath departed from the normal path of the LBQ at the Court of the Dead, and did not undergo either the ritual of the net or the Dawn Gate ascension on that run.

Argrath is one of five Arkats. Which one is the superhero? All combined, maybe. Argrath alone? Not a chance, IMO. Easier for him to achieve dragonhood, or failed mysticism.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:51 AM, Joerg said:

Lots on Androgeus

 

Can we just not use 'they' all the time, when talking about 'them'? It makes life a lot easier.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:51 AM, Joerg said:

Argrath does not become the next Belintar, or does he?

 

 

I can't think of anyone worse, except Hurrek, taking over.

Like putting a small handed, bequiffed, narcissistic billionaire in charge of the White House...

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Can we just not use 'they' all the time, when talking about 'them'? It makes life a lot easier.

This is the classical way to refer to Androgeus. Feel free to use "they" when you talk about her, but I will continue to address him with alternating cis gender, as that seems to be what she is about in his flings.

 

Successor of Belintar:

10 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I can't think of anyone worse, except Hurrek, taking over.

Tatius, Gagix Twobarb, Ethilrist, Jaldon, Sheng... it is easy to see alternatives that are in no way better.

At the very least, Argrath does the same kind of unorthodox heroquesting Belintar did to keep the Proximate Holy Realm proximate, and otherwise he pretty much leaves people to organize themselves once the Wolf Pirate threat has been re-directed. No idea what he did about the Backford situation, but my guess is "leave it to player characters." Maybe give it to the remaining Telmori as a chance to redeem themselves?

 

[JRE]

As I usually use RW comparisons to model Gloranthan politics, as it makes it easier, I treat Argrath's alliance as the Holy Roman Empire under a strong emperor. You can self govern more or less as you want, as long as you come to my wars and do not fight among yourselves. Internal problems are yours to solve. Which is why Mularik in Tarsh was a problem he could not address directly, only indirectly.

Of course being able to marry as many times as needed, and with Harrek as a nuclear option even against his own allies, he can do things that Friedrich II would have loved to be able to do.

Sartar is important because it is his only true powerbase, together with the Praxians of the White Bull.

Argrath, IMHO is not a superhero because he shares power. He always relies and is supported by others, while superheroes focus on their own power to the detriment of others. Gods, including demigods, focus most of their power in their worshippers and their presence in the God plane, so their mundane avatars are individually weaker than even some heroes, but they cannot be beaten while they have worshippers left, and they can always return if they keep the presence in the God Plane. Jar Eel is strange in that she has worshippers, but I am sure she returns only a small fraction of what she gets. Other superheroes are not interested in worshippers, and give them nothing.

I expect Arkat became a superhero in Dorastor, focusing all his power, alliances and companions to face Nysalor alone. Which is why he was no longer a troll. And he never became a god. Which maybe was prescient of him, or his Western upbringing, because the God Learners could have erased him if he were a god, but they could only isolate him as a hero, though that isolation and the many different attempts to reach him broke him up. 

It remains to be seen if he will do something similar, and the story of the helpers from all the directions was just him amassing all his power and alliances to become briefly a superhero, with enough power to perform the Moon Utuma.