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List of superheroes (including dead ones)


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58 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Oh, who is the real star of that show though and how many hit points does he have?

Frodo was Samwise's pet.... 馃槅

Seriously, Aragorn had the great High Destiny in the story. Elrond had the great High Tragedy. Everybody else was a bit player in the tale.

The story of the Hobbits was the showing of grit and determination while living the blast zone of forces greater than themselves.

Understand, everyone is the central character of their own story. We live our lives very self-centered, things matter because they effect us. But do you think that Frodo had the wherewithal to spend 100 years questing, mostly alone, all across the known world to defeat an evil demigod and his only happy ending was breaking the heart of the elf-lord he thought of as a father? That's 'Egil's Saga' or 'The Odyssey' level stuff right there. And while Frodo Baggins, the Ringbearer, was a hero... much as player character acting as an agent for Argrath is a hero... Aragorn's journey was simply above his weight class.

Edited by svensson
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2 hours ago, svensson said:

PCs are not Aragorn, or Conan, or the central figures in the story of the Hero Wars and the defeat of Red Goddess. They are the side characters... They are Legolas or Palamedes [one of King Conan's loyal barons]... or Merry and Pippin.聽 If Queen Leika Ballista, Prince Kallyr Starbrow or Jarostep Prince-Killer are not Heroes, than PCs definitely aren't. Fazzur Wideread isn't a Hero, and he's spent 30 years playing a quarter of Genertelan continent like a puppeteer!

I suspect that Fazzur isn鈥檛 a hero primarily because he had been so focused on politics. That is assuming he would be able to secure permission to do the kind of heroquesting needed to become a capital H Hero, which I think would have been likely at the height of his political power.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I suspect that as the rules clarify these advanced questions, the esoteric distinctions will become more familiar terms of art. For now, we know a tiny bit more about what makes a "superhero." Like any well defined state of being, it's as much of a prison as a power trip. Karma's a bitch that way. Even a slow wheel turns.

I feel like I missed something, could you explain/point to the source explaining how it is a prison?聽

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1 minute ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

I suspect that Fazzur isn鈥檛 a hero primarily because he had been so focused on politics. That is assuming he would be able to secure permission to do the kind of heroquesting needed to become a capital H Hero, which I think would have been likely at the height of his political power.

Well, Prince Kallyr Starbrow DID Heroquest for major powers, even to the point of almost divorcing herself from the Storm pantheon she's sworn to defend, and she's not a Hero either. @Jeff has been very clear about that in previous comments.

I don't know what exactly is required to become a Hero, but destiny certainly plays a role in the process. Not everyone has the favor of the Gods to such an extent as to have the opportunity to Heroquest for Major Hero status.

But again, all my suppositions will probably go right out the window once the official Heroquesting rules come out. But that's a couple-three books down the road.

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21 hours ago, Akh么rahil said:

Supervillain? 馃檪

But yes, surely the most powerful Orlanthi hero pre-HeroWars? Not that this is necessarily enough.

I think Lokamaydon, someone who managed to appear simultaneously in all Orlanth temples, put Orlanth to sleep, broke the Orlanth initiation hero quest and almost resurrected Ragnaglar has to count as a super hero.

Even the Lunar wind stop was not as widespread or destructive as the damage Lokamaydon did in his time.

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1 hour ago, EricW said:

I think Lokamaydon, someone who managed to appear simultaneously in all Orlanth temples, put Orlanth to sleep, broke the Orlanth initiation hero quest and almost resurrected Ragnaglar has to count as a super hero.

Even the Lunar wind stop was not as widespread or destructive as the damage Lokamaydon did in his time.

It would be interesting if in an alternate Herowars the lunars resurrect聽Lokamaydon. I have no clue how hard this would be but Jar-Eel has done some pretty crazy stuff before.

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10 hours ago, svensson said:

Fazzur Wideread isn't a Hero, and he's spent 30 years playing a quarter of Genertelan continent like a puppeteer!

When I discussed a possible Fazzur counter in the Dragon Pass boardgame, Greg told me that he definitely wasn't a (4!) 10 _6_ style hero, and neither was Kallyr, but he conceded that his leadership was enough to give him stats similar to a Praxian Khan, something along the line (1!) 4 _6_ .

Fazzur had command authority over the Lunar army and the Imperial College.

We don't have a Tatius counter, either (because of the Dragonrise), unless you think that the Magical Leader counter type as in one of the Footprints would apply to him.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

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On 6/22/2022 at 3:45 AM, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

So I was thinking about the different between superheroes and heroes that Jeff laid聽out in recent Facebook posts and it got me thinking about who is a superhero, so I tried to make a list:

Jar-Eel

Sedenya, prior to becoming the physical red moon

Arket

Harrek

Yelmgatha

Belintar

The Only Old One

Godunya, or maybe we should count him exclusively as a dragon?

Sheng Seleris聽

Zzabur, was/is definitely one but would have achieved it through very different means

which are the ones I am missing and/or mistaken on?

Argarth by the end of the Herowars.

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I think this is a problem of definition.聽 I don't know the actual definition of a Super Hero, but I have a long-held suspicion that it is a one specific path to power.聽 There are many other paths and people who take the other paths can end up as powerful as a Super Hero, but that doesn't make them Super Heroes.

For example, Sandy said at one point the he believed every Super Hero was associated with a rune and that each rune can only have one Super Hero.聽 聽That implies that the path to Super Herodom is to (somehow) associate yourself more and more closely with a rune.聽 I don't think this is the same thing as Rune Lords "embodying" the runes of their God, though.聽

Not sure if that is actually the case, but from that statement alone, I wouldn't think Sheng Seleris is a Super Hero and I wouldn't think Argrath at the end of the Hero Wars is a Super Hero.

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11 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

CragSpider?

In WBRM, the game that introduced the concept of superheroes, Cragspider clearly is "just a hero", although with an extreme exotic magic ability and a pet dragon.

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Just now, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

It's a pretty narrow range by that criteria, and one hopes was modified by game balance?

Given the option to ally Androgeus as your second superhero, game balance doesn't seem to have been on the forefront there.

Just now, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

What is the difference?
He does effectively end a world, which is Soops kind of material.

He may have done so through apotheosis by utuma, which is rather different from "normal" superheroes.

Going back to the WBRM/Dragon Pass definition of a superhero, there is the immunity to most kinds of magic (theoretically, the Cannon Cult combined with the Alchemical Transformer and either the Crater Makers or the Wind Children have a 1 in 6 chance to win against a superhero with their physical magic), and their ability to extend their protection to up to three units stacked with them - how that looks in narrative you can see at the Battle of Pennel Ford where the massed Sunspear fails to eliminate Harrek.

A superhero can singlehandedly win against the flank of a set-up battle. A hero like Argrath may be the equivalent of a full military unit with his closest retainers, but that's one order of magnitude less than a superhero.

Did Arkat start out as a superhero? Probably not, but neither did Harrek or Jar-eel. At which point did Arkat become a superhero?

And does Argrath being one of the five Arkats for Ralios mean he had a chance to get there (provided he united with the other four)?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

in narrative you can see at the Battle of Pennel Ford where the massed Sunspear fails to eliminate Harrek.

A superhero can singlehandedly win against the flank of a set-up battle. A hero like Argrath may be the equivalent of a full military unit with his closest retainers, but that's one order of magnitude less than a superhero.

Did Arkat start out as a superhero? Probably not, but neither did Harrek or Jar-eel. At which point did Arkat become a superhero?

And does Argrath being one of the five Arkats for Ralios mean he had a chance to get there (provided he united with the other four)?

Someone needs to sneak into his tent when he's having a shower, steal that rug of his!

It's all very well talking in boardgame terms, that doesn't translate well to an RPG.

Re Androgeus. I wasn't suggesting that having a second SH was unbalanced in of itself. Position on board, recruit cost et al, would be a factor.

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32 minutes ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

It's all very well talking in boardgame terms, that doesn't translate well to an RPG.

Yes, that's the problem with such way larger than life forces of destruction in an RPG context. Harrek and Jar-eel may not quite be on par with Great Cthulhu, but they are able to go head to head with the manifestation of a True Dragon even without ritual preparation, and have a good chance to return quickly from that ordeal.

An open confrontation should be doomed to fail. It takes Argrath successive bouts of heroic escape to abandon his desire to rob the Cradle for sheer tedium, and something of an interest in that madman that allows himself to be cut down, mangled, maimed, etc. all over again and again, coming back fresher than that Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. There is no report that Argrath actually managed to hurt Harrek or the bear on this occasion.

(That insane amount of Heal Body should give us an estimate of the number of his Ernaldan supporters, whether on board or via spell trading...)

Spoiler

A second duel is about to follow, under the observation of the giant Guardian Cranes of the Holy Country coastal marshes. On this occasion, Argrath does better, wielding among others the authority and possibly magical boost of the king of the Holy Country, and the experience of having fought alongside the Berserk for three years during the Circumnavigation. Maybe Harrek's heart isn't in it, either, as there are few great magics left to plunder after his previous visits.

Jar-eel has rather few duels. The three I can name all have her losing her heart - once physically to Harrek, twice metaphorically to Beatpot Aelwrin and to Annstad of Dunstop. One win (Beatpot), one loss (Harrek), one draw (Annstad).

The very write-ups of Androgeus say that wherever she appears he is disruptive, in other words: unbalancing. I the board game the diplomacy point cost invested can be disruptive, too...

Telling how it is excessive verbis

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On 6/27/2022 at 7:51 AM, Jeff said:

No, I don't think he is.

You're hard to please 馃檪聽-聽I think fighting Harrek to a standstill (KoS), summoning dragons to rip a god from the sky, finding a way to hack the LBQ to extract even greater rewards from the gods (the "deeper quest"), finding a way to Lunar Hell even the gods can't follow, having the gods follow his command during the final battle, and cutting open and defeating Wakboth after he has consumed most of the gods, has to got count as a few points in favour of recognising Argrath as a superhero...

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6 hours ago, EricW said:

You're hard to please 馃檪聽-聽I think fighting Harrek to a standstill (KoS), summoning dragons to rip a god from the sky, finding a way to hack the LBQ to extract even greater rewards from the gods (the "deeper quest"), finding a way to Lunar Hell even the gods can't follow, having the gods follow his command during the final battle, and cutting open and defeating Wakboth after he has consumed most of the gods, has to got count as a few points in favour of recognising Argrath as a superhero...

Those are qualifications for a demigod or full deity, and that's the path that Argrath ends up on. Maybe a similar weight class, but different from the superhero qualifications, hence not a superhero.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those are qualifications for a demigod or full deity, and that's the path that Argrath ends up on. Maybe a similar weight class, but different from the superhero qualifications, hence not a superhero.

(emphasis added)...

But - that's the whole point - what is the qualification for calling someone a "superhero"? Versus anything else?

Is there actually some part of the definition which precludes demigods or deities?

(and can we not simply use WBRM statistics for this??)

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But - that's the whole point - what is the qualification for calling someone a "superhero"? Versus anything else?

Is there actually some part of the definition which precludes demigods or deities?

(and can we not simply use WBRM statistics for this??)

The best current information is what Jeff posted on FB a few months back and is recorded in the Well of Daliath.

Allocating Your Unconscious Life I 鈥 The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Allocating Your Unconscious Life II 鈥 The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Jar-eel again 鈥 The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Runequest distinguishes three basic levels of spiritual participation in a cult 鈥 lay member (casual), initiate (dedicated), Rune Master (professional). Another way of thinking about it is how much of our Unconscious Life is devoted to a particular cult or thing. So let鈥檚 imagine what percentage of our unconscious life is dedicated to specific pursuits.

  • Maintaining contact with a聽major deity聽like Orlanth or Ernalda require at least 5% of your unconscious (minimum required for adulthood initiation). But full contact, like being an initiate, requires 20% of your unconscious. So let鈥檚 say Vasana has 20% 鈥 5% with Orlanth in general, and 15% with VInga Adventurous.
  • A聽minor deity聽takes up 5-15% of your unconscious.
  • An聽allied spirit聽takes up another 10%. Each bound spirit is another 2%. Dealing with ancestors and those sorts of community rites are at least another 5%. This isn鈥檛 the Daka Fal cult- that鈥檚 a minor deity 鈥 but just what a community does to revere those who went before them.
  • Spirit magic. That also takes up unconscious life 鈥 let鈥檚 say usually somewhere between 10 and 15%.
  • Personal Power. Everyone has some inner reserve which is used to protect oneself and one鈥檚 ego. Let鈥檚 say 10%. Let鈥檚 say Vasana has 15% in that.
  • Dream. In a sense all of the other categories determine the shapes one鈥檚 dreams take, but this is the stuff that outside our control. Minimum of 10% to keep your sanity. Lets say Vasana puts 25% in Dreams.
  • Undifferentiated. This is what you don鈥檛 know and can鈥檛 know. At least 10%. A few mystic traditions try to get this to 100% so that they Know. Let鈥檚 say Vasana has 25% in that as well.

So with Vasana, we already have about 50% of her unconscious life allocated to specific spiritual pursuits, with the rest being daydreaming or undifferentiated. She鈥檚 pretty concentrated and focused on spiritual things, but almost half her unconscious is either undifferentiated or dreaming.

Now let鈥檚 say she becomes a Rune Lord. That knocks things up another 10% likely coming out of her undifferentiated self 鈥 that allied spirit is a part of her unconscious! She then becomes a heroquester, knocking things up another 10%, as she tries to organize cult activities around her explorations 鈥 that comes out of her undifferentiated self and her dreams.Add in a few more spirits and pretty soon her unconscious is fully devoted to spiritual pursuits. There鈥檚 really nothing more that she can do!
Now the point of that thought experiment is to show that our adventurers are already pretty spiritually developed characters.

We could imagine Alvin the Ordinary. He鈥檚 doing the minimum necessary to function spiritually within his society:

  • 5% to Orlanth
  • 5% to the ancestors
  • 10% to personal power
  • 5% for spirit magic
  • 25% for dreaming
  • 50% is Undifferentiated.

Alvin is more like us moderns than we are like Vasana!

So you can see a big difference here. We call Alvin a Lay Member and Vasana an Initiate, but really it is how much of their unconscious self they are dedicating to spiritual pursuits.

...

So yesterday I compared Vasana, our budding heroine, with Alvin the Ordinary. Today, let鈥檚 compare Argrath with Harrek.

Argrath actually dedicates most of his unconscious self to things other than himself:

  • Dream 15% 鈥 Argrath is more of a dreamer that most people.
  • Undifferentiated 10% 鈥 this is that bit that Argrath doesn鈥檛 and can鈥檛 know. He鈥檚 a mortal after all.
  • Orlanth 25%, divided between Orlanth, Adventurous, and Rex.
  • Dragon stuff 10% (Dragontooth Runners, etc.)
  • White Bull 10%
  • Personal Power 20%
  • Other Spirits 10%

So in terms of personal aggrandisement, Argrath is about on the same level as Vasana or other Orlanthi hero-types. More than half of the mana he receives goes to Orlanth, Draconic stuff, the White Bull, or other spirits. About a third goes to personal power and dreaming. Now admittedly his is a MUCH BIGGER pie than someone like Vasana, but he divides it up in a more or less normal way.

Harrek is different.

  • White Bear 30%
  • Dream 10%
  • Undifferentiated 10%
  • Personal Power 50%

With Harrek almost everything goes to his personal power and to his White Bear self. And given how HUGE the mana pool he gets to play around with must be, that Personal Power lets him do stuff like kill with a glance.

Jar-eel is similar to Harrek, not Argrath.

  • Personal Power 50%
  • Bloodspillers 20%
  • Dream 10%
  • Undifferentiated 10%
  • Red Goddess 10%

So with Jar-eel about half goes to her personal aggrandisement, and another 20% goes to her Sardukar Guard. This actually shows a nice and tidy way of distinguishing between superheroes and mere heroes. Heroes are lifted by others and those others share in their rewards. Superheroes have gotten to the point that they don鈥檛 need those others any more and have broken out of that system.

聽Isn鈥檛 Jar-Eel much more grounded in the Lunar way and culture than Harrek is in, well, anything? She is a superhero of The Empire, not a pirate?Jar-eel has broken out of that mold every bit as much as Harrek has. She has a symbiotic relationship with the Empire, but then again, Harrek has something similar with Argrath and his kingdom.

Should characters use some of their subconscious for their loves? e.g. Should Jar-eel have 10% Beat Pot or similar?no. That all falls within the undifferentiated and dreaming self.

Despite 鈥 or perhaps because of 鈥 being widely worshiped in the Lunar Empire as the incarnation of the Red Goddess, Jar-eel鈥檚 mana primarily goes to her own personal aggrandisement, and another 20% goes to her Sardukar Guard. Sure she defends the Lunar Empire, but at least in part because it is a resource that enables her to do great things, but HER great things are the ultimate purpose of the empire, not vice versa.

Thinking of Jar-eel in this manner helps make her tick for me. She鈥檚 already proven her independence and autonomy from both the Red Emperor and the Red Goddess 鈥 you better accommodate her desires, because you are not going to stop her.

At least not unless you have your own superhero on your side.

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