Townsmen background & Sacred Time participation?

[thom]

Ok Wisebeards, I've come for some advice...

My 2 old-timers (i.e. 1979+ RQ2 players) convinced the 2 beginners to take the craftsmen background so they could all be townies (because we remember how much better the townsman background was compared to the peasant one BITD)😈.  I (as GM) have decided they're living in Red Cow; so...my questions are:

1) As townsmen, could they/should they be members of the Red Cow clan, and the Cinsina tribe? I ask because the passion examples of craftsmen do not include clans.  I can work with either way, but I'm curious how y'all handled this situation - if it even occurred in your games.

2) As townsmen, how would y'all have them participate in the Sacred Time rituals (especially if they're not clan members)?

thanks for any help!

thom

[M Helsdon]

42 minutes ago, thom said:

1) As townsmen, could they/should they be members of the Red Cow clan, and the Cinsina tribe? I ask because the passion examples of craftsmen do not include clans.  I can work with either way, but I'm curious how y'all handled this situation - if it even occurred in your games.

My understanding is that they could, given the Red Cow and Cinsina's relationship with Jonstown. 

I assume they are Jonstownies?

44 minutes ago, thom said:

2) As townsmen, how would y'all have them participate in the Sacred Time rituals (especially if they're not clan members)?

As clan and tribal members they could, but there might be Guild ceremonies they could attend instead.

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, thom said:

1) As townsmen, could they/should they be members of the Red Cow clan, and the Cinsina tribe?

Yes, and yes.  If they are in Red Cow village, then they are simply at the center of both clan and tribe.  If they are in Jonstown, they still have kinship ties and are considered part of both (as well as the city).  (All Sartarite cities have a mix of clan/tribe members who live there full-time but are still part of clan/tribe.)

51 minutes ago, thom said:

I ask because the passion examples of craftsmen do not include clans. 

Just give them the option whether they have the Passion or not.  I'm always flexible in Passion assignments as this is a way to help the players figure out what ties they actually have.

52 minutes ago, thom said:

As townsmen, how would y'all have them participate in the Sacred Time rituals (especially if they're not clan members)?

Given the note that they CAN be clan/tribe members (they could also just be Jonstown residents OUTSIDE of clan/tribe but part of the city or a craft guild), then they have a choice:  go back home to Red Cow for the Sacred Time events or stay in Jonstown for the similar, but city oriented, events.

[Nick Brooke]

It's credible that their Loyalty is (at least in part) to Jonstown, rather than to a Clan and/or Tribe. Could be all three, could be just one or two. Chat to your players, see what they think about (a) the old folks back on the traditional farm and (b) the remote Tribal King, much less important in their day to day lives than the City Rex.

[Nick Brooke]

And at Sacred Time, they could choose to participate in Jonstown's civic rituals (presided over by the City Ring's Priests and the City Rex), or head back to the countryside, for their native clan or tribal ceremonies (whether held on their home tula or at the tribe's ritual centre). And argue with their relatives, neighbours, guild masters, etc. either way, about their decision. Conflict reveals character, complexity weaves depth. This is all grist to the mill.

[JRE]

It is important to remember that Loyalty usually runs in two directions, and you may juggle two masters with enough time investment, but three, Clan and Family/Tribe/City and Family should be impossible. Add the Temple as an extra loyalty and there is not enough time to serve all. That is something that has happened since the first cities appeared.

Your Loyalty (or Love in the case of Family) also shows who will be willing to help you, and how much. So no hiding among your family in the Tula if your loyalty to the clan is too low. or you will suffer a significant risk someone sells you out. Then you have the Loyalty to your companions, which will usually not take numbers in the character sheet, but is there for the GM to exploit, as it is an excellent conflict to generate adventures, your clan or family against that stranger you spend so much time with...

There is a reason why most of great heroes leave behind their origins and start to focus on the big picture. Not all, as the case of Harmast shows, but in most cases Heroes sacrifice family and clan to Tribe and then Kingdom and often Temple. But that progression can be the source of great and powerful storytelling. And if the character wants, they may be happier helping their clan than running errands for Argrath. Ech group must find its own dynamic and personal satisfaction.

Cities add an additional dimension to the already complicated interplay of divine and mundane duties.

 

[thom]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

It's credible that their Loyalty is (at least in part) to Jonstown, rather than to a Clan and/or Tribe. Could be all three, could be just one or two. Chat to your players, see what they think about (a) the old folks back on the traditional farm and (b) the remote Tribal King, much less important in their day to day lives than the City Rex.

Thanks Nick, that's what I'm gonna do.  For my part (as GM) this sounds easier for me to work.

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

And at Sacred Time, they could choose to participate in Jonstown's civic rituals (presided over by the City Ring's Priests and the City Rex), or head back to the countryside, for their native clan or tribal ceremonies (whether held on their home tula or at the tribe's ritual centre)...This is all grist to the mill.

Again, I'd rather work the city angle, but we'll see what my players think.

5 hours ago, JRE said:

It is important to remember that Loyalty usually runs in two directions, and you may juggle two masters with enough time investment, but three, Clan and Family/Tribe/City and Family should be impossible. Add the Temple as an extra loyalty and there is not enough time to serve all. That is something that has happened since the first cities appeared.

 Yep, I agree totally, which is why I'd prefer to have fewer loyalties.  Thanks everyone for the great help!

thom

[Nick Brooke]

I'm glad I helped, but you should absolutely want your players to have multiple conflicting Loyalty passions on their character sheets. That's what RuneQuest is all about! Making it simple for adventurers to negotiate conflicts between their family, clan, tribe, temple etc. by wiping a bunch of them away does the setting a massive disservice.

[JRE]

That is why I mentioned the two ways. It is not only that you have all those people asking things of you and making you test loyalty if you want to say no, it is also an indication of what you can expect when you are the one needing help, which is a nifty simple mechanic. 

Nevertheless, several loyalties at 60% is almost the same as none. It is when you get into the high commitment (which are the ones you also will be asking for important help, such as ransom or HQ support) when conflicts become exciting. But that kind of drama is not for everyone. Most players have enough problems with the Lunars and the other menaces to worry too much about more than one main Loyalty. I do not think that what Nick finds as "normal" gameplay will be normal for most of us. 

That said, in a politically oriented game, conflicts between loyalties are built in the character creation tables, between people mainly loyal to Argrath, to tribe loyalists to clan first or city first. Even some Kallyr loyalist remnants blaming Argrath for what happened to the Prince. 

[Shiningbrow]

Maybe remind them that their Ransoms get paid by those that pass the Loyalty roll 😁

[thom]

All righty...talked with my players: after pointing out the excellent advice I got here, two of them are fine with being members of the Red Cow clan - since they're living in the clan HQ. So they'd have:  Loyalty (family) 60% and Loyalty (craft guild) 60%, and Loyalty (Red Cow clan) 60%...

But the other two want to be the (small?) percentage of town/village inhabitants who are not part of the clan!?  However, I'm not sure that Loyalty (red cow village) 60% would work here, 'cuz I'm thinkin' that type of loyalty would be subsumed within the clan/tribe loyalty.  After all, as the HQ of the clan, and the major village in the area that the Red Cow clan controls that should be the default.  Which means I tell the 2 old-timers to "suck it up" and take the clan loyalty or - what?  Any other ideas?  Or am I overthinking the whole village vs. clan loyalty? 

BTW, thanks again for all your answers...being able to tell the group what other more experienced RQers think was very helpful!

thom

 

EDIT: to clarify, the last 2 players will have Loyalty (family) 60% and Loyalty (craft guild) 60%, since they live in Red Cow. What we're debating is what their 3rd Passion will be...

Edited August 8, 2022 by thom
clarification

[radmonger]

Splitting city and clan loyalty makes sense, as there are normally multiple clans (and tribes) in a given city. For a village that is the central hub of a single clan, not so much.

If someone lives in the clan village, but is not part of the clan, then that means  they don't have the usual answer to the question 'why are they there?' So some other must exist:

- Because it is the best way for them to support their family?

- Because it is what they feel the national development of Sartar demands?

- Because their cult, guild or Kallyr assigned them that duty?

- Because their friends or lovers are there?

It's pretty hard to find a way to answer that question that doesn't imply a new loyalty/passion, or a boost to an existing one.

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, thom said:

But the other two want to be the (small?) percentage of town/village inhabitants who are not part of the clan!?  However, I'm not sure that Loyalty (red cow village) 60% would work here, 'cuz I'm thinkin' that type of loyalty would be subsumed within the clan/tribe loyalty.  After all, as the HQ of the clan, and the major village in the area that the Red Cow clan controls that should be the default.  Which means I tell the 2 old-timers to "suck it up" and take the clan loyalty or - what?  Any other ideas?  Or am I overthinking the whole village vs. clan loyalty?

There's a lot of ways you could go with this, but I'm assuming they are all living in Red Cow village?

If so, here's some alternatives:

1) Red Cow is both clan and tribal center.  They aren't part of the Red Cow clan, but one of the other Cinsina clans and provide their services to the tribe.  Their Loyalty is to the Cinsina tribe (and may or may not have loyalty to the original clan).  This could easily happen if their mother married into the Red Cow clan or married one of the tribal thanes, or if father became tribal thane.  

2) Red Cow as a tribal center is a place of refuge for certain outsiders.  E.g. when the Maboder were destroyed or when Harvar Ironfist crushed the Righteous Wind rebellion, some of the survivors went to Red Cow fort and gained protection there.  They may or may not have Loyalty (Cinsina tribe), but definitely have loyalty to their old tribe/clan.  So could be Loyalty (Maboder) or Loyalty (one of the original Far Point tribes/clans); or it could be reflected as Hate (Telmori) since the werewolves destroyed the Maboder or Hate (Harvar Ironfist) for driving out their parents.  Note that they or their parents could be an Exile from almost any tribe, particularly those who fell in with the Lunar way.

3) They are true foreigners.  Perhaps someone was an ironsmith of the Third Eye Blue cult, or they are dedicated/devoted to the River Gods or Issaries or Donandar, or they are Humakti who are severed from prior kinship and accepted/adopted into the Cinsina tribe.  Or maybe they are a learned scribe sent out from the Jonstown Lhankor Mhy temple to serve the needs of Queen Ivarna as a lawspeaker or recorder of deeds.

[JRE]

I would add a potential fourth. Towns host services that normal clans cannot afford, and the specialists may be more loyal to their job than to the clan, as probably most of them are foreigners attracted by steady employment and trade opportunities. The town also may have bigger temples, some of them part of a hierarchy outside the Red Cow and possibly the Cinsina tribe. That would be Blacksmith guild loyalty, or Weavers or whatever it is what they do in town. It may be possible to be part of the garrison and have loyalty to the Town rather than the whole clan. And of course they may have loyalty Humakt temple, or Uleria, or whatever deity is in town that is not a traditional Red Cow cult. 

[Cassius]

I'd be surprised if there were craftsmen's guilds in a village, it seems to me that you only find them in cities. I think, for example, it is plausible to imagine that Red Cow has one or two blacksmiths, but not enough to form a guild.

[jajagappa]

38 minutes ago, Cassius said:

I'd be surprised if there were craftsmen's guilds in a village, it seems to me that you only find them in cities.

Agree - the guilds will be in Jonstown.  But if a tribe requests a specialist due to some need from the guild (or cult in the case of LM scribes or CA healers), then this would work.

[JRE]

That is why I added it as a potential, and used town rather than village, though the border between them is nebulous. For me a town would be any settlement larger than half a clan, so 500 people or so, as that means it cannot be fully considered part of the clan, or otherwise it will dominate clan politics. At that population level there may well be 30-50 specialists. 

And as Jajagappa says, if they get a trained weaponsmith from Jonstown, they will probably remain loyal to the Jonstown guild, and attend Sacred Time rites in Jonstown.

[Nick Brooke]

Exactly. The smith isn’t a member of the local Red Cow Guild (pop. one), he’s likely a journeyman member of the Jonstown Smiths’ Guild, and will travel there from time to time on business (inc. cult business).

Just as the parish priest in a mediæval village is ultimately loyal to the Pope in Rome, not just to his village church and local Lord. And when those interests clash, we get story.

[svensson]

In a situation like this several things come to mind:

1. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with a crafter being an initiated member of Orlanth. Issaries is the most logical cult for a craftsman, but Orlanth isn't far behind.

2. Even if they're not initiates of Orlanth, they can still be lay members. It's not at all unreasonable that a fair amount of the local temple equipment and repairs comes from donated items or labor from lay members paying their dues in the most practical of ways. While the full-fledged initiates pay for much of the local Rune Priest's lifestyle, Snorvar the Redsmith buys his annual Lay status by repairing said Priest's brazier chains or cooking cauldron for free.

3. There is always a sub-context of conflict in an Orlanthi village, town or city. Differences in cults, trades, or families and the basic argumentative nature of the culture will lead to some kind of conflict. 'City mouse vs. Country mouse' isn't anything different.

4. As I understand it, Sartar isn't organized or... 'evolved' is the best word, I guess... to such an extent as have guilds regulating mercantile and trade activity. In Glorantha that would more likely be covered by Issaries cult activity instead of the classic Medieval 'Worshipful Companies' or Hansas anyway. Crafting skills are not yet 'trade secrets' and anyone can hang a sign out in front of any building they can afford to occupy. Yes, most cities in Sartar have streets where similar trades are practiced, but there isn't a 'Guildmaster of Clothiers, Fullers, and Dyers' ruling over the trade like some petty despot.

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, thom said:

I'm not sure that Loyalty (red cow village) 60% would work here, 'cuz I'm thinkin' that type of loyalty would be subsumed within the clan/tribe loyalty.  After all, as the HQ of the clan, and the major village in the area that the Red Cow clan controls that should be the default.  Which means I tell the 2 old-timers to "suck it up" and take the clan loyalty or - what?  Any other ideas?  Or am I overthinking the whole village vs. clan loyalty? 

One way could be to give them a passion like "distrust rustics" (or something else that makes it clear that people living outside of suitably enclosed settlements are not really worth their affection).

Otherwise, both limiting and expanding the passion to residents of the place is possible, and may have interesting effects e.g. in their relationship with Willandring the giant smith.

What follows are effectively my house-rules:

Most guild members would have a special relationship to their (possibly former) master and his workshop, to the members of their workshop, to the guild, and to the community the workshop is a part of. Much of the time, these could be the same abillity, possibly with a bonus or a penalty for certain individuals or sub-organisations.

Effectively, all greater groups - family, guild, clan etc. - will have subgroups or individuals with modifiers to the general skill. Inside a guild the master will have a rival, with a workshop of their own, and members of the rival workshop will have a penalty. Inside the master's workshop, there will be an individual rival, and possibly an ill-tempered slightly-higher-up with no chance at promotion, who will incur such a penalty, and there will be personal allies as well. Within a certain limit, these loyalties or hatreds can be covered with just one skill and a few modifiers. Only when these characters are brought into the game outside of that community context their directed passion gets separated from the community-directed passion.

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, Cassius said:

I'd be surprised if there were craftsmen's guilds in a village, it seems to me that you only find them in cities. I think, for example, it is plausible to imagine that Red Cow has one or two blacksmiths, but not enough to form a guild.

Redsmiths... the Red Cow village is special for having a blacksmith, and for who that blacksmith is. And I sort of doubt that Willandring ever was offered a guild membership...

Actually, that opens a can of worms with regard to unfree practitioners of a craft. Are those to be regarded as property of the associated guild, or is their owner (i.e. the Red Cow clan in the case of Willandring) somehow associated with the guild like a journeyman member, with similar duties?

 

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Agree - the guilds will be in Jonstown.  But if a tribe requests a specialist due to some need from the guild (or cult in the case of LM scribes or CA healers), then this would work.

The guilds will be centered in the nearby city, but may be activein its environment, and run dependencies - possibly with only journeyman or clerk representation, possibly with detached masters. As I understand Apple Lane, the stable master is part of the horsemasters' guild of a nearby city. Probably Runegate rather than Jonstown, because horses... the weapon masters will be associated with the Jonstown hiring hall, which in turn may be closely intertwined with the Two Ridge (Malani) temple of Humakt.

Jeff's preview of the Boldhome Bronze Workers guild and its inter-relation with the cult of Gustbran shows that the guilds do run parts of their business outside of the city walls. Guilds in lesser cities may maintain some sort of dependency with those in bigger cities, or with guilds that predated them in the region. Wilmskirk was the first center of guild crafters in the region, and its guilds may have some traditional influence on those in other cities founded after them.

 

[Nick Brooke]

50 minutes ago, svensson said:

4. As I understand it, Sartar isn't organized or... 'evolved' is the best word, I guess... to such an extent as have guilds regulating mercantile and trade activity. In Glorantha that would more likely be covered by Issaries cult activity instead of the classic Medieval 'Worshipful Companies' or Hansas anyway. Crafting skills are not yet 'trade secrets' and anyone can hang a sign out in front of any building they can afford to occupy. Yes, most cities in Sartar have streets where similar trades are practiced, but there isn't a 'Guildmaster of Clothiers, Fullers, and Dyers' ruling over the trade like some petty despot.

RuneQuest Starter Set, Book Two, p.32: Guilds.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, thom said:

But the other two want to be the (small?) percentage of town/village inhabitants who are not part of the clan!?  However, I'm not sure that Loyalty (red cow village) 60% would work here, 'cuz I'm thinkin' that type of loyalty would be subsumed within the clan/tribe loyalty.  After all, as the HQ of the clan, and the major village in the area that the Red Cow clan controls that should be the default.  Which means I tell the 2 old-timers to "suck it up" and take the clan loyalty or - what?  Any other ideas?  Or am I overthinking the whole village vs. clan loyalty? 

Of course, they may have had a huge falling out with the higher ranking members of the clan, and thus feel no loyalty to them (or any other members of the clan) any more. And don't expect anything in return, other than fair prices for their crafts. On the verge of being outcasts, but haven't actually done anything that merits that yet.

[Jeff]

On 8/3/2022 at 12:29 PM, thom said:

Ok Wisebeards, I've come for some advice...

My 2 old-timers (i.e. 1979+ RQ2 players) convinced the 2 beginners to take the craftsmen background so they could all be townies (because we remember how much better the townsman background was compared to the peasant one BITD)😈.  I (as GM) have decided they're living in Red Cow; so...my questions are:

1) As townsmen, could they/should they be members of the Red Cow clan, and the Cinsina tribe? I ask because the passion examples of craftsmen do not include clans.  I can work with either way, but I'm curious how y'all handled this situation - if it even occurred in your games.

2) As townsmen, how would y'all have them participate in the Sacred Time rituals (especially if they're not clan members)?

thanks for any help!

thom

Let's think about it this way. There are about 9600 people in the Cinsina tribe. 600 of them live in Jonstown, where they make up more than a quarter of the city's population. Another 500 live in Boldhome. The rest are rural. Those who live in the cities are just as much members of their kinship groups as their rural cousins, but they also have ties to their guilds, their cults, and their cities that are often just as important or even more.

People like Orngerin Holdfast and Bardrinor Red Cow are leaders of the Cinsina Tribe, and Jonstown's geographical proximity means that it is easy for people to get from their farms to the city for big religious festivals. None of the Cinsina settlements within tribal lands are more than 25 km from Jonstown (and most of the tribe is much closer), so it is pretty easy for the rural folk to come to Jonstown to trade, worship, and meet.

Now that Sartar is free, the Orlanth cult is able to return to its place of prominence in Sartar's cities. Jonstown is increasingly going to be where people go for major religious festivals - Jonstown has major temples to Orlanth Rex and Orlanth Thunderous, and minor temples to Orlanth Adventurous, Ernalda, Humakt, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and the Seven Mothers. The Seven Mothers temple was destroyed when the city was liberated after the Dragonrise, although many cult members remain in the city. Jonstown has shrines to Argan Argar, Eiritha, Eurmal the Thief, Sartar the Builder, Uleria, and Yelmalio. 

Red Cow remains the center of the tribal Orlanth Rex cult and has a minor temple to Eiritha. That's where we celebrate our Cinsina tribal identity. But for most cults it cannot compete with Jonstown.

[Jeff]

Remember the scale of things in Sartar. A city is rarely going to be more than a long day's trek away from any associated tribal settlement (and often just a few hours away). These are not Medieval English peasants, tied to the land, but free people used to moving around and traveling. The Lunar Occupation interfered with this, but it was the aberration, and besides it is over now.