RW Bronze Age archaeology

[Bren]

17 hours ago, svensson said:

They weren't Epicurean philosophers exploring the meaning of sensation. It just gluttony, nothing more.

If they were doing that, they weren't Epicurean philosophers they were hedonists. For Epicureans, the supreme good they sought was ataraxia or the freedom from pain. 

[DrGoth]

23 hours ago, g33k said:

It's paywalled, but there's some interesting extra details...  2000+ burials.
 

For a free (non-paywalled) report see

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/apr/07/bronze-age-people-hallucinogenic-drugs-menorca-study

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

If they were doing that, they weren't Epicurean philosophers they were hedonists. For Epicureans, the supreme good they sought was ataraxia or the freedom from pain. 

Fair enough. I'd confused the two because of 'epicureanism's' more common definition. As for ataraxia, isn't that more a sense of oneness, spiritual stillness or tranquility based on the freedom from fear?

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 hours ago, svensson said:

Fair enough. I'd confused the two because of 'epicureanism's' more common definition. As for ataraxia, isn't that more a sense of oneness, spiritual stillness or tranquility based on the freedom from fear?

Apikoros "Epicurean" is the Hebrew word for "heretic", replacing the earlier term minim ("sectarians") once the division between Christian and Jew became established.

Nowadays the more common term in Aramaic, Hebrew and languages like Yiddish is derived from zindiq, a Persian term that means "follower of the Zend(-Avesta), i.e. Zoroastrian" - it was borrowed into Arabic as well.

[Bren]

19 hours ago, svensson said:

Fair enough. I'd confused the two because of 'epicureanism's' more common definition.

If you had said, epicureans instead of "Epicurean philosophers" I would have assumed the common definition. Epicurean philosophers get a bad rap in the modern world. So when someone is wrong on the internet, duty calls. 

Quote

As for ataraxia, isn't that more a sense of oneness, spiritual stillness or tranquility based on the freedom from fear?

Tranquility does sound closer. I was going off my recollection from a long ago Introduction to Philosophy class. You're correct that it was more than just freedom from fear. As I recall, their ideal seemed to be living simply, eating simple food, not drinking to excess, and studying mathematics so as to avoid worry, stress, and pain in life. I particularly remember the math part as I majored in math, so I found the Epicureans advocating studying math amusing.

[Squaredeal Sten]

A video about experimental archaeology of Bronze Age Mesopotamian textile production. deduced from cloth impressions on clay seals.

I had no idea that a larger spindle weight produces thicker thread.yarn.  Info about when shearing time is -  you want to shear the sheep before the new fleece grows into the old fleece -  this implies a seasonality to the work in Ernalda temples' loom houses. 

Also think of larger textiles than the "2 meter" (by 1m) pieces of cloth given as a standard in W&E.  These large pieces in the RW as discussed in the video may have been a regional specialty.

The discussion of speed of production of these large textiles  has implications for cost.

Also, of course, a lot about letters sent, their clay envelopes,  

 

[Cassius]

On this webpage, some items one can see in the French National Archeology Museum. There are belts, armours, cups, swords, etc.

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, Cassius said:

On this webpage, some items one can see in the French National Archeology Museum. There are belts, armours, cups, swords, etc.

 

 

That bronze belt is unlike anything ancient that I have seen before.  And it shows wire work holding the pendants, which I doubt would be done by casting alone, so there was lots of hammer work there and possibly wire drawing.  Also the uniformity of the pieces indicates to me that division of labor in the workshop possibly occurred.  Does it look that way to you?  To me, the beauty is in the concept, not the individual pieces of the belt.

[Cassius]

I don't know enough about ancient art to judge it as well as you do but I see what you mean and I agree with you : the concept in itself is beautiful.

I was impressed too by the Saint-Germain-du-Plain's cuirass but I can't find anymore a full and satisfying picture of it.

This item, a boar's canine swaddled in a bronze jewel, looks very Gloranthan to me. It is assumed that some women wore it on their belt. Could it be a protection of their fertility ?

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

I don't know enough about ancient art to judge it as well as you do but I see what you mean and I agree with you : the concept in itself is beautiful.

I was impressed too by the Saint-Germain-du-Plain's cuirass but I can't find anymore a full and satisfying picture of it.

This item, a boar's canine swaddled in a bronze jewel, looks very Gloranthan to me. It is assumed that some women wore it on their belt. Could it be a protection of their fertility ?

 

As I recall pigs are associated with Ernalda.  So a boar's tusk would be a cult oriented ornament.  I don't recall a reference for the tie in to fertility. 

With the loops at each end I could see a thong attached to be worn around the neck.

[Cassius]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

With the loops at each end I could see a thong attached to be worn around the neck.

Rougly translated from the Museum website :

Quote

Specialists have long been divided over its use: pectoral or tiara? These two hypotheses collide with its position in the tomb, at the right hip level, and the fact that the rare known examples were all found at the bottom of the torso. For this reason, it is now thought that it may have been the main element of a complex support, suspended from a belt or garment.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

Rougly translated from the Museum website :

 

So the equivalent of a buckle, only for a sash?  It is conceivable.  But my own  experience of tying a sash is that it does not need a buckle.  You would only need such a thing if you were incompetent at tying the sash.

Right hip  ... always the right hip?  Perhaps part of a closure system for an upper garment?  Using ties instead of a hook?  

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As I recall pigs are associated with Ernalda ...

Generally  Earth-y, IIRC, not specifically or uniquely Ernalda.

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:52 PM, Bren said:

If you had said, epicureans instead of "Epicurean philosophers" I would have assumed the common definition. Epicurean philosophers get a bad rap in the modern world.

"Do you like a nice garden? Do you enjoy the company of friends? Do you believe the world is made of tiny particles, which you call 'atoms'? Do you trust the evidence of your senses? Do you find politics tiresome, and raise a skeptical eyebrow at those who live in fear of God?

If your answer to these questions is 'yes', you might want to consider becoming an Epicurean."
—History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps podcast

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So the equivalent of a buckle, only for a sash?  It is conceivable.  But my own  experience of tying a sash is that it does not need a buckle.  You would only need such a thing if you were incompetent at tying the sash.

Right hip  ... always the right hip?  Perhaps part of a closure system for an upper garment?  Using ties instead of a hook?  

Perhaps something tossed in by a funeral attendee prior to burial?

SDLeary

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

Generally  Earth-y, IIRC, not specifically or uniquely Ernalda.

It at least used to be the case that Entra the Sow Mother was a part of Ernalda.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

Look at this beautiful Bronze Age ceramic cup.  From the Palace of Phaistos. Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=528597836826240&set=a.368992826120076&__cft__[0]=AZUWWZX8dMJbGphBqLEkJkluP_Ltl0hATwr7i-qO14nZy-wRZy0eeu468NpBu4nNObv5VYV1ePkunElFXkpjlBOBW6XqDRugbf9--Fa7V8JZ_GZPGVGqTdz7RTSqvsNUT_DVesjpooPsmyWjWMb_661eL3Yc511TvXb9qeCtpl3oeuX90-P6e7AJQaBOC7xNOao&__tn__=EH-R

This shows how high quality pottery can be an item of long distance trade, even though pottery is made in almost every country.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2024 by Squaredeal Sten

[Squaredeal Sten]

This article in Archaeology magazine discusses omens, specifically Mesopotamian interpretations of astronomical events.  RQG provides for omens in the year-end sacred time cycle, pages 420-421, see the 7th Sacred time step and then  "Apply Previous Year's Omens".  Both the Mesopotamian astrologers and Sartarite beliefs include "as above, so below". 

As GMs we might do well to use descriptions of these omens, rather than to make them a dry die roll.  And here we have some RW Bronze Age examples. 

We might even have the omens occur during earlier seasons, keep notes, and then show the interpretations in the Sacred time cycle.

https://archaeology.org/issues/january-february-2025/digs-discoveries/bad-moon-rising/?utm_source=Archaeological+Institute+of+America&utm_campaign=adcda3fbb0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2025_01_06_06_00&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-adcda3fbb0-218669938&mc_cid=adcda3fbb0&mc_eid=eebb8f6f08

 

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

This article in Archaeology magazine discusses omens

• If the diviners determined that the king’s life was indeed in danger, however, rituals would be performed to ward off the approaching peril. If all else failed, the king would go into hiding and a temporary substitute would be placed on the throne. Once the threat was deemed to have passed, the king would reassume his position. To dispose of any lingering evil, his stand-in would then be executed.
  — Jason Urbanus, Bad Moon Rising

Add a little deception and get plot or even pattern:

• The temporary substitute doesn’t know that they are.
• Usurpers regularly claim to be the king returned.
• I leave it to the better-informed to attempt to apply this to the case of the “reincarnating” Red Emperor.