What would you expect in an oceanic supplement?

[Squaredeal Sten]

What would you want and expect in a  oceanic supplement to Runequest in Glorantha?

Another thread recently discussed sailor skills and occupations.  And went on from there..  https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/16238-no-sailor-profession/

There is definitely room for one or more oceanic supplements.  Especially since the Eastern Isles books are in Jonstown Compendium - and  they may, with expansion, fill all the functions of an oceanic supplement.  More reasons: Choralinthor Bay is a good candidate for oceanic adventures on the fringes of the current core area.  And on the current timeline the Wolf Pirates are significant actors.  And wouldn't any good Issaries dream of trade with Pamaltela?

I would copy or modify the ship handling rules from Blood and Plunder.   Modifications are indicated for lack of several thousand years of sailing tech.  But B&P has simplicity and captures the essence of sailing. 

Naval combat: Ramming and boarding have been covered in other games, boardgames.  Again, most of that is also in Blood and Plunder, and it works.  Ram rules for actual rams and not just collisions are not, but that is easy to add.  Shooting and melee can be handled by the current RQiG rules. 

Beings: We can begin with certain water beings which are in the Bestiary: Naiads and water elementals.   Blue elves, Bestiary page 23.  Trioilini, Ludoch, page 66.  Piscoi remain to be detailed.  Sea monsters are definitely needed.  What conventional sea monsters can you list?

What else?

The Wolf Pirates need to be detailed, though there is Wolf Pirate info out there, some in Guide to Glorantha.  Jeff's thread here https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13027-wolf-pirates/#comment-202513  is handy, but still not enough to roll up a wolf pirate character. 

 

We await the Gods book for detail on the cult of Dormal, and probably on other oceanic cults.  

   So there is already a lot of oceanic stuff out there, but having it in a single reference would be very convenient.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
typing, as usual

[metcalph]

Depends on where you would be sailing.  I expect the following sea-faring nations:

Loskalm

Quinpolic League

Mirrorsea Islanders (ex Holy Country)

Wolf Pirates

Melib

Vormain

Haragalan Commonwealth

Flanch

Golden Kareeshtu

Nikosdros

Orange Guilds (Vadeli)

Slon (Dwarves)

Waertagi (Edrenlin/Sog City)

Exotic ships from nations like Kralorela or Malusoll (Dark Trolls) would be rarely encountered.

There's no need to create a homeland.  Just describe the ship, its likely crew and combatants and its attitude to people they encounter - Pirates will probably try to seize all, Haragalan Commonwealth probably try to seize half etc.  

The following merfolk:

Ludoch

Malasp

Yssabau

Likewise the Zabdamar, the Ouori, the Dwerulans and the Gnydrons would be unusual rather than commonplace.

 

[svensson]

I'd like to see some Sea pantheon Mythology. For example, the destruction of the Spike is likely to be even more catastrophic for Sea peoples as it was for landbound races, so how does Magasta's Children view it?

Then there's all the practical stuff:

- Sailor Profession

- Net combat

- Ship types /Maritime technology

- Making a living from the sea [oceanic trade goods where magic is reliable would be interesting]

- Naval warfare at the fleet, ship, and personal level; For example, do some Gloranthan ships carry siege weaponry [ballistae, etc.], if so whose?

- As @metcalph said, some paragraphs about the Sea races beyond the Ludoch [who are relatively familiar]

I'd like to see something like the Baran the Monster Killer chapter of Strangers in Prax, where it discusses how landsmen see sailors and how sailors see lubbers and the culture of the sea.

 

[Joerg]

Merfolk.

[Nick Brooke]

If you're doing this on the Jonstown Compendium, do not copy the rules from another game: the publishers of Blood and Plunder won't be happy, and nor will Chaosium. Our FAQ clearly tells you not to do this, and if we learn of any violations we will take whatever actions are necessary to protect the programme.

[Agentorange]

Well there is the JC supplement Ships and Shores of Southern Genertela in the works. I managed to have a look at a proof/draft copy at Dragonmeet and a thing of beauty it is too. Didn't have a chance to really get to grips with it - it's a big old tome, but based on the quick peek I had it looks really good.
 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Agentorange

[Soccercalle]

I would prefer a "first" oceanic supplement to focus on the areas closest to the main Hero Wars action. That means the seafaring parts of the Holy Country. Including the city of Nochet if that is not first part of an "Esrolian supplement". I would also expect it to have more information about the Wolf Pirates.

[M Helsdon]

50 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

I would prefer a "first" oceanic supplement to focus on the areas closest to the main Hero Wars action. That means the seafaring parts of the Holy Country. Including the city of Nochet if that is not first part of an "Esrolian supplement". I would also expect it to have more information about the Wolf Pirates.

The full title of Ships & Shores is Ships & Shores of Southern Genertela. The book concentrates on the ships and lands of the southern coast, and especially Choralinthor Bay. The cover depicts a tub approaching Nochet.

My book includes an appendix on naval combat (referencing The Magic World BRP fantasy RPG Seafaring rules). 

Edited December 15, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If you're doing this on the Jonstown Compendium, do not copy the rules from another game: the publishers of Blood and Plunder won't be happy, and nor will Chaosium. Our FAQ clearly tells you not to do this, and if we learn of any violations we will take whatever actions are necessary to protect the programme.

I undoubtedly exaggerated the "copy".  There are certain mechanics I would use, others that are not compatible with Runequest.  And text is copywritable, general ideas are not.  For  exsmple RQ does not need B&P's card draw, which would be an awkward mix with RQ's turns and melee rounds and GM moderation.  The simplicity of the sailing rules is what I was thinking of, but that needs to be modified for Bronze Age rigs: I doubt that ancient 50 oared galleys ever tried to tack (and being drawn up on beaches at night, they had much shallower keels or no keels, so much less grip on the water) , but they would row better and might wear.  Turn radius can be handled differently: I would relate it to ship length and not use a gauge.  

Edited December 15, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Keels

[M Helsdon]

15 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I doubt that ancient 50 oared galleys ever tried to tack (and being drawn up on beaches at night, they had much shallower keels or no keels, so much less grip on the water) , but they would row better and might wear.  

A square sail rig could tack (as has been demonstrated by the modern reconstructions of the Olympias trireme and the Kyrenia tub), but the galley was limited by her shallow draft. The tub was shown to be almost as good as a fore-and-aft rigged vessel for tacking. Experiments have shown that the large steering oars acted as leeboards, helping ancient vessels tack.

The Kyrenia could easily wear, but none of the reports I have access to detail the Olympias attempting to wear, but she probably could. In an unfavorable wind the Olympias would probably rely upon her oars, but due to the low freeboard to her lowest oarports would probably only do so in relatively benign wind and sea states. Under oars, Olympias could turn in about two lengths.

Edited December 15, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Squaredeal Sten]

That's very interesting.  I didn't know about those reproduction ships.

And a good point about low freeboard and bad sea states.  

How good was the tub's " almost as good" tacking?  How close to the wind, and what was windward speed vs. down wind speed?

[M Helsdon]

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How good was the tub's " almost as good" tacking? How close to the wind,

Maybe five and a half points into the wind, sometimes worse, whilst an ancient fore-and-aft perhaps five points into the wind. Varies of course, with conditions and the skill of the crew.

The galley wasn't so good, as the slightest heeling over and she took on water through the oar ports, even when blocked with leather sleeves.

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

what was windward speed vs. down wind speed?

Windward versus downwind? Impossible to quantify. Depends on the conditions, and the amount of leeway. Sailing windward is going to be very much slower - you may travel a similar distance but not necessarily towards where you wanted to go, and beware that lee shore.... The journey you make in a day sailing downwind might take three, four or more days trying to sail upwind, and may be nigh impossible or dangerous - you might anchor up and wait for the wind to change, or sail only part of the day using the daily winds blowing off and onshore each day. Oars are an answer, but rowing upwind adds to the effort, and if the wind is too strong, unwise.

There were times when the Kyrenia stayed at anchor in habor waiting for a favorable wind.

Edited December 15, 2022 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

29 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That's very interesting.  I didn't know about those reproduction ships.

 

[M Helsdon]

33 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I didn't know about those reproduction ships.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

They seem to get acceptable speed, a slow walk, from just four sweeps.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

They seem to get acceptable speed, a slow walk, from just four sweeps.

Very calm water, no wind, perhaps some momentum remaining, a very very slow 'walk'. Good enough to get into a sheltered harbor and moor. And of course, whilst ballasted, she isn't carrying a full cargo.

The Kyrenia isn't a large ship - 14m long, beam 4.4m, average speed under sail 4-5 knots with a good wind; 10 knots in ideal conditions running downwind. She sometimes briefly achieved 12 knots.

The Olympias with 170 oars made 8 knots; 9.5 knots briefly with an exceptional team of oarsmen. Perhaps in ancient times an experienced crew could do better. Thucydides wrote of a non-stop voyage of 340km between Athens and Mytilene that took a day suggesting an average speed of 7.5 knots but this may have been an elite crew with a first class ship, dried out and fairly new.

The original ship the Kyrenia was based on was old when she sank - about twenty years old if I recall correctly, patched and mended probably to the point that the hull failed in bad weather, and she would have been slower than the reconstruction, which benefits from being newly built.

Edited December 15, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Squaredeal Sten]

The trireme tour video shows details I had not known before.  So, turn in 2.5 times its length.  I wonder whether that was just with the rudder, or with the inside oarsmen backing water?  

[M Helsdon]

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The trireme tour video shows details I had not known before.  So, turn in 2.5 times its length.  I wonder whether that was just with the rudder, or with the inside oarsmen backing water?  

There is no rudder - two steering oars. Just using the oars, one side rowing one way, the other the opposite, and turning the steering oars.

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

There is no rudder - two steering oars. Just using the oars, one side rowing one way, the other the opposite, and turning the steering oars.

So the Kyrenia's turning radius would be larger in relation to its length, with only the dual steering oars turning it.  

 

 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So the Kyrenia's turning radius would be larger in relation to its length, with only the dual steering oars turning it.  

Under sail - of course. Probably also using the sweeps. Depends on the sea state and wind. A trireme had to be fast and manoeuvrable. Long ships and round ships are very different beasts.

[Akhôrahil]

Depth. I would expect depth.

[Goldennose]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:33 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Especially since the Eastern Isles books are in Jonstown Compendium - and  they may, with expansion, fill all the functions of an oceanic supplement.

There will be some local ships and sailing in the forthcoming Vol 3 of the Hero Wars in the East Isles series. Scott Crowder has also some sea encounters and things in his Pirates of the East Isles book Vol 1.

[Soccercalle]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:17 AM, M Helsdon said:

The full title of Ships & Shores is Ships & Shores of Southern Genertela. The book concentrates on the ships and lands of the southern coast, and especially Choralinthor Bay. The cover depicts a tub approaching Nochet.

My book includes an appendix on naval combat (referencing The Magic World BRP fantasy RPG Seafaring rules). 

Thanks. I am waiting for the hard copy.

[Nick Brooke]

Chaosium's advice to Martin, Scott, Hannu, and anyone else who asks has been to use the twenty pages of Seafaring rules from the Basic Roleplaying book Magic World as a stopgap until something is published for RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha. Those rules are basically what was in Avalon Hill's RuneQuest 3rd edition Game Master's Book; minor tweaks needn't concern us. And -- unlike RQ3 -- they're readily available in digital format from DriveThruRPG: 272 pages of BRP goodness for just $2.99.

The Jonstown Compendium FAQ has useful advice on writing new rules (only where they support playable material, please), borrowing rules from other systems (don't ever do it, they don't belong to you), reprinting RuneQuest rules (don't ever do it, we're in business to sell our own books after all), and so on and so forth.

[M Helsdon]

I've just shared a draft of one of the illustrations in my book.