Plant Rune HeroQuest

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Initiation into the cult of Aldrya is not a casual event for a non-elf, just follow this 16 step plan detailed in the upcoming cults book

Failure in any part of the lengthy and difficult adoption ceremony means the death of the candidate.

1. A non-elven candidate first must prove themselves to the Council of Elders with an average POW & CHA roll x5.
2. Then must succeed skill test on 5 set skills.
3. Then candidate must perform an unspeakable deed to their species, which is always criminal in every human sense (this is a secret kept from non-initiates).
4. Then sacrifice 1 point of POW to Aldrya.
5. Now the elves take the candidate, strip them, and carry them to a holy tree.
6. With copper stakes, they nail the candidate to the tree, one spike per limb.
7. With a holy knife, they first cut out thigh and upper arm bones and replace them with wooden sticks.
8. Then they gut the candidate and rip out most of their inner organs.
9. Plants, seeds, and soil are inserted in the hollow cavities.
10. A hole is drilled into the forehead through the skull, and a dried root is stuck in the brain.
11. Genitals are amputated, with seeds planted in their place.
12. A sacred copper axe is then used to chop a slit in the tree, which opens and swallows the mutilated corpse.
13. The wood folds around the mess and the metamorphosis begins.
14. At the end of some number of days, which varies with the amount of damage the body sustained, the person will awaken, enclosed in a nut-like shell.
15. This hangs on the holy tree.
16. After breaking out of the shell, the new elf is welcomed by the cult.

Much easier to stay a lay member.

This has considerable parallels to the process fir human initiation into the cult of Kyger Litor.  Except for the crime in step 3.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

This has considerable parallels to the process fir human initiation into the cult of Kyger Litor.  Except for the crime in step 3.

what, they don't make you eat a sentient being before you can be a troll?

[Squaredeal Sten]

22 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

what, they don't make you eat a sentient being before you can be a troll?

Not as I recall.  That's for later, as a Kl Rune Lord (Kaarg's Son) has  to eat a relative periodically.  Thats in RQ3 Troll Gods and also RQ2 Cults of Prax.   There is an example in Trollpack in which the RL NPC periodically imports a trollkin from distant family.   

Or, of course, there is periodically feasting on an elf - but that's not a "make you", it's a treat.  Uz counterpart to boutique doughnuts.  Or is that eating a Mostali?  YGMV.

Obviously a human (or more accurately formerly human) rune lord in the Kyger Litor cult  would have fewer sources of related trollkin so the ambitious initiate should plan to marry an Uz in whose family the Curse of Kin runs deep.  This will require the GM to research Uz courtship.   The details might be unsuitable for younger audiences, at least without careful wording. Looks like a specialized adventure publication  opportunity to me.

My first RQ2 character was a human Kyger Litor initiate, long ago - about 1980.  It's been a while since I reviewed the details.  

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling mangler massively changed a word. And found my reference, updated to reflect that. And a day later clarified, formerly human.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Quick question / suggestion: could a human initiate to Flamal in a manner that doesn't require the Aldryami transformation, and become an elf-friend that way?

Yes.

Flamal () is the father of Aldrya, but not an elf (no man rune, although is the source of the Plant form). Humans need to give 10L in gifts, have Plant Lore at 50%, and succeed in a roll of POW×5 or less on D100 (Flamal is in the upcoming cults book). Humans would use the Fertility Rune to approach him (elves, the Plant Rune). Bear Fruit () and Sprout () both use the Fertility Rune.

[kalidor]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Initiation into the cult of Aldrya is not a casual event for a non-elf, just follow this 16 step plan detailed in the upcoming cults book

Failure in any part of the lengthy and difficult adoption ceremony means the death of the candidate.

1. A non-elven candidate first must prove themselves to the Council of Elders with an average POW & CHA roll x5.
2. Then must succeed skill test on 5 set skills.
3. Then candidate must perform an unspeakable deed to their species, which is always criminal in every human sense (this is a secret kept from non-initiates).
4. Then sacrifice 1 point of POW to Aldrya.
5. Now the elves take the candidate, strip them, and carry them to a holy tree.
6. With copper stakes, they nail the candidate to the tree, one spike per limb.
7. With a holy knife, they first cut out thigh and upper arm bones and replace them with wooden sticks.
8. Then they gut the candidate and rip out most of their inner organs.
9. Plants, seeds, and soil are inserted in the hollow cavities.
10. A hole is drilled into the forehead through the skull, and a dried root is stuck in the brain.
11. Genitals are amputated, with seeds planted in their place.
12. A sacred copper axe is then used to chop a slit in the tree, which opens and swallows the mutilated corpse.
13. The wood folds around the mess and the metamorphosis begins.
14. At the end of some number of days, which varies with the amount of damage the body sustained, the person will awaken, enclosed in a nut-like shell.
15. This hangs on the holy tree.
16. After breaking out of the shell, the new elf is welcomed by the cult.

Much easier to stay a lay member.

Wow, thanks for this. This explains a lot! No more human players in Aldrya's cult. I suspect that if you are human and love the woods/wild your only way is Ernalda.

[David Scott]

Just now, kalidor said:

Wow, thanks for this. This explains a lot! No more human players in Aldrya's cult. I suspect that if you are human and love the woods/wild your only way is Ernalda.

Just become a lay member. There's no problem with that.

[Squaredeal Sten]

It strikes me that the human Aldrya initiate would get Loyakty(forest) as well as devotion to Aldrya.  Indeed, he  might have to demonstrate that loyalty before initiation.  Not just a die roll, but through behavior, adventure material.  

 

[Brian Duguid]

8 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Wow, thanks for this. This explains a lot! No more human players in Aldrya's cult. I suspect that if you are human and love the woods/wild your only way is Ernalda.

I do hope you mean human adventurers. Otherwise there's some weird stuff going on round your table 😲.

But if it's causing anyone a problem, there's absolutely no need to change their existing game. Just rule it as YGWV.

[Jex]

Hrm... I'll have to think about this for my Marshedge NPC.  Given her backstory, she actually would be willing to go through all that, but it sounds like at the end she'd be literally turned into an elf, which may be a problem.  Yeah, maybe I'll have her be an initiate of Flamal instead.  The biggest issue with that, as minor as it may seem, is that I did want her to have the preserve herbs spirit magic spell (not that it's vital to an adventure or anything, but there are reasons I wanted her to have it), which is a special Aldrya cult spell.

Oh, wait; I'd already planned on giving her two pixie companions (who stay hidden from everyone else except for a small handful of people she trusts).  One of them could have the preserve herbs spell.  Problem solved.

Edited to add: For the record, yes, I realize in principle she could get the spell from a shaman who finds it in the Spirit World, but if she's supposed to be an ally of the elves, then going behind their backs to get a secret Aldrya cult spell that non-initiates aren't supposed to have doesn't seem like a great idea.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Jex

[David Scott]

32 minutes ago, Jex said:

preserve herbs spirit magic spell

The associate cult rules say: Cult Spirit Magic... An initiate can also learn spirit magic spells from an associated cult. (RQG 288)

So preserve herbs is available to any initiates of associate cults of Aldrya and Chalana Arroy (via the Arroin subcult).

• Aldrya associates are: Chalana Arroy, Dendara, Eiritha, Ernalda, Flamal, Gata, Voria, Yelm, Yelmalio, Yelorna.
• Chalana Arroy associates are: Aldrya, Eiritha, Ernalda, Flesh Man (Daka Fal), Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Orlanth, Storm Bull, Yelm.

That should be wide enough for you to choose from if you don't just want to give them a matrix or have a shaman involved.

[Jex]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The associate cult rules say: Cult Spirit Magic... An initiate can also learn spirit magic spells from an associated cult. (RQG 288)

But the Red Book of Magic says that special cult spirit magic spells like Preserve Herbs "are restricted to cult members" and "are not taught to non-initiates and are closely held secrets" (page 107).  That sentence from RQG 288 doesn't seem to me to necessarily contradict that; sure, you can go to an associated cult to learn spirit magic spells, but that doesn't mean they'll teach you their cult's special spirit magic spells.  Otherwise you'd have Chalana Arroy cultists teaching Orlanthi and Storm Bull cultists the Sleep spell, for instance, which doesn't seem like a thing they'd be likely to do...

[scott-martin]

22 hours ago, David Scott said:

Arroin subcult

This is a great place to put characters who perform Plant focus but not necessarily undergo the full shamanic ordeal. 

Like a lot of runes, access to Plant has opened and closed across various communities. Almost seasonal, if you like.

Edited December 20, 2022 by scott-martin

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:04 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

what, they don't make you eat a sentient being before you can be a troll?

Only if you are hungry... and share!

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:02 AM, kalidor said:

Wow, thanks for this. This explains a lot! No more human players in Aldrya's cult. I suspect that if you are human and love the woods/wild your only way is Ernalda.

I wonder about Flamal... god of Plants. This not being a common human cult, it may not be applicable.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[JRE]

9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I wonder about Flamal... god of Plants. This not being a common human cult, it may not be applicable.

 

Hrelar Amali and the humans of Western Ralios would beg to differ. Plants are the source of life, and maybe it is easier to see for former Hsunchen horselords than in Dragon Pass where even elves seem to become carnivorous... Flamal is more distant but less demanding than jealous Aldrya, and he was one of the first to return to life after being killed.

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I wonder about Flamal... god of Plants. This not being a common human cult, it may not be applicable.

Flamal is worshipped at the Clearwine Earth Temple p13 (RQ Gamemaster Screen Pack) and also has a number of shrines throughout the tribe.  His worshippers aren't that influential.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, JRE said:

Hrelar Amali and the humans of Western Ralios would beg to differ.

Then let them beg (I hate beggars). I do not play in the west nor are there rules to do so if I were so inclined. Nor do I have any reason to believe the OP was referring to the west. I will defer to metcalph's comment above and below.

Still thanks for the response JRE.

 

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

Flamal is worshipped at the Clearwine Earth Temple p13 (RQ Gamemaster Screen Pack) and also has a number of shrines throughout the tribe.  His worshippers aren't that influential.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[JRE]

The holders of wisdom have spoken, and if it is in the Cults book it must be so. But this is a case where I will stake my own Glorantha. I agree the initiation described is what happens when elves dominate the cult of Aldrya. But I am sure there are other ways. 

In Esrolia humans dominate the cult, and the cult is somewhat tamed, focused more on orchards and human managed woods than elves, as there are not many. I play that the dryads have reached an accomodation with the Ernaldans, so nothing of all that mutilation needs to happen. I am sure elves complain of traitors and will not be very welcoming of those "initiates", but for me they are getting magic from Aldrya, and sharing it with the other Earth deities.

In other areas with few or no elves, just becoming a dryad's lover (and dryads can love almost anything humanoid) may qualify you to join her worship ceremonies and even initiate. Probably some plant material will start rooting in you, and I still play you exchange your Beast (if Human) with Plant, but without all the violence described earlier. The Esrolia case is an extreme case of collaboration between Earth cults and a loose confederation of dryads. I would not discount that the dryads implant some plant material into the prospective initiates also in Esrolia, but it does not require surgery and it can be much more pleasant. 

In some societies it will be an unspeakable crime , I am sure, while others will consider it good neighborhood practices, or standard horticultural practice...

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, JRE said:

The holders of wisdom have spoken, and if it is in the Cults book it must be so. But this is a case where I will stake my own Glorantha. I agree the initiation described is what happens when elves dominate the cult of Aldrya. But I am sure there are other ways. 

In Esrolia humans dominate the cult, and the cult is somewhat tamed, focused more on orchards and human managed woods than elves, as there are not many. I play that the dryads have reached an accomodation with the Ernaldans, so nothing of all that mutilation needs to happen. I am sure elves complain of traitors and will not be very welcoming of those "initiates", but for me they are getting magic from Aldrya, and sharing it with the other Earth deities.

In other areas with few or no elves, just becoming a dryad's lover (and dryads can love almost anything humanoid) may qualify you to join her worship ceremonies and even initiate. Probably some plant material will start rooting in you, and I still play you exchange your Beast (if Human) with Plant, but without all the violence described earlier. The Esrolia case is an extreme case of collaboration between Earth cults and a loose confederation of dryads. I would not discount that the dryads implant some plant material into the prospective initiates also in Esrolia, but it does not require surgery and it can be much more pleasant. 

In some societies it will be an unspeakable crime , I am sure, while others will consider it good neighborhood practices, or standard horticultural practice...

Our glorantha may vary off course 🙂 

but in my opinion Aldrya is the goddess and mother of elves and sentient plants .

if you want to join her people and her secrets you must be a sentient plants

if you are not a plant and want to worship her or to serve her become a lay member.

if I had to create a human community of initiates I would build a subcult dedicated to them, something like a spirit cult or a hero cult where human may join and learn few secrets m aldrya allows to human. And a specific subcult that would not give you the opportunity to join others (high king , etc…)

don’t see the transformation (to elf or even to troll) as a violence. Of course it may hurt and those who want to let behind them there humanity have to suffer but that because there is no possibility to change your « race », your body system, your mind system, and your ancestors !!! without big trauma. 
irl any surgery let scars and provides pain at least temporary so in Bronze Age (if it means something) technology when you change not only body but soul …

 

so If you love plant but are a human choose flamal ernalda or one of hundred other masks or even the dryad you « love »

of course these goddess may be another mask than the entity behind/named Aldrya

but I would let species have their own specificity, 🙂 

 

 

wooo a lot of if… my style is really .. poor !

[Qizilbashwoman]

I'd like to observe one of the dread Elder Scrolls enemies here: the Briarheart. Through daedric (Chaos) magic, a Reachfolk Breton hero will be ritually mutilated by having his living heart removed and replaced with a heart made of a poison fruit that grows on a hagraven-nurtured Briarheart tree. (A hagraven is a Reachfolk daedric witch; they are like bird-human hybrids. The briarheart seed, as seen below, is planted in a corpse.) The original heart of a Briarheart is stored so that they will pass on after death; if it is defiled, they are trapped in Nirn (the mortal world) until such time as it can be reconsecrated. Some Briarhearts further evolve, through horrible torture rituals, into a variety of "Lurcher", or embodied spirit in the form of a juggernaut made of plant material. Below is an image of the Reachmen Hero Faolan ("Wolf"), who was a werewolf (a gift of Hircine, the daedra lord of the Hunt) and the first Briarheart.

While Chaos does not map exactly to Elder Scrolls daedra, it is close enough. The major difference is that the source of Chaos is a sacrifice by one of the first creators to enable change (and thus life as we know it rather than permanent stasis). Briarhearts mimic the sacrifice of that dead lord, whose heart was torn out. (Daedric and non-Daedric positions on the event vary: anti-Daedra argue it was an execution but pro-Daedra know it as a self-sacrifice, the first mother giving birth).

Anyway, the Reachfolk have a terrifying society with extremely fascinating daedric theology and I thought maybe this might spark some horrible GM ideas. Elder Scrolls theology is wild. For example, the origin of the entire universe is said to have been a starship whose engines exploded in some kind of alternate space; the crew were divided between two factions, and became the gods and daedra of the world. A ship's AI embodied itself and is the origin of several Aedric heroes: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/KINMUNE. (One of Her embodied forms is Queen Ayrenn, who founded the Aldmeri Dominion.)

[mfbrandi]

On shamanism and becoming an elf:

Quote

The old man then cut out all of his insides, intestines, liver, heart, lungs – everything in fact … Then he sang over him until his body was all swollen up. When this was so he provided him with a complete set of new inside parts, placed a lot more atnongara stones in him, and patted him on the head

Clearly, if the Unmatjera shamans really did this, their own people would have them incarcerated as dangerous lunatics. When Glorantha takes something which IRL is hallucinated/metaphorical/symbolic/whatever and literalizes it, it can seem to me a bit … broken. It takes the magic out of the world in the guise of putting it back in.

I guess it is unrecorded what Australian Aboriginal peoples think of RQG and its jam-tomorrow cults books.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Clearly, if the Unmatjera shamans really did this, their own people would have them incarcerated as dangerous lunatics.

this is par for the course in how shamanic initiations are described. I have seen Siberian-origin shamans wear skeletons on it representing the replacement of body parts by magical pieces. They also wear skeletal imagery for other reasons, but for this specific reason? Yes.

and the reason for elf shamanism doing this is different: you are turning into an actual elf. It's not standard procedure to change races.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[Brian Duguid]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Clearly, if the Unmatjera shamans really did this, their own people would have them incarcerated as dangerous lunatics. When Glorantha takes something which IRL is hallucinated/metaphorical/symbolic/whatever and literalizes it, it can seem to me a bit … broken. It takes the magic out of the world in the guise of putting it back in.

As already noted, there are plenty of accounts like this one. I imagine that "their own people" believed that this is exactly what was done, and that they considered it to be magical, not lunatic.

I sympathise with the point about transference of how rituals are conceived and perceived between IRL and Glorantha being sometimes problematic. But I find it odd that we consider it unremarkable in Glorantha that limbs can be regrown, people resurrected, wounds instantaneously closed, etc, but that other magical transformations of the body are somehow suspect. For me, that's a very real-world modern mindset, and I find that approach to Glorantha odd in itself.

Each to our own!

[mfbrandi]

18 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

As already noted, there are plenty of accounts like this one. I imagine that "their own people" believed that this is exactly what was done, and that they considered it to be magical, not lunatic.

I am not attacking the IRL ritual or shamanic initiates’ right to say that they died and were brought back by their initiator. I don’t say that they are insincere, but I think the thing needs to be approached with a little subtlety.

But this is the thought experiment: a member of the shaman’s community — not a dissident or “unbelieving” member — who is not currently in an altered state finds a shaman actually eviscerating a would-be initiate and stuffing the cavity with stones; do they think (1) “business as usual”, (2) “something has gone terribly wrong”, (3) something else entirely, or (4) it depends?

Unsurprisingly — godless ne’er-do-well that I am — I come down on the (2) “something has gone terribly wrong” side. The initiation has not gone to plan, to put it mildly. They wouldn’t need to wait to see whether the victim was brought back: the situation would be plain to them. Similarly, I believe that if a Christian who believed in transubstantiation — but not currently in an altered state — found what seemed to be blood in the chalice, they would freak out; that is not to say they would not sincerely maintain that in their ritual wine really turns to blood.

(There is the further question of whether a believer “lost in the moment” would accept the real thing as a substitute for the ritual/symbolic thing, but you know … baby steps.)

Is this really a controversial take?

[mfbrandi]

19 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I find it odd that we consider it unremarkable in Glorantha that limbs can be regrown, people resurrected, wounds instantaneously closed

I am for keeping it remarkable.