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Yelm and the Red Goddess


Soccercalle

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I have read that you must be a priest or lord of a Lunar cult, and an illuminate, to become an initiate of the Red Goddess. I wonder if Yelm (and other solar cults that are worshipped in the Lunar empire) is considered Lunar Cults when it comes to this rule. I know that the Red Emperor is considered a sort of "heir to Yelm" as being the emperor of Dara Happa. Or is it necessary to be a priest or lord to the Seven Mothers and other more "pure" Lunar cults.

I totally get that the Yelm worshippers in Pent or the Grazelands can't be initiates to the Red Goddess. But I am thinking about the aspect of Yelm that is linked to the Dara Happan aristocracy.

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5 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

I have read that you must be a priest or lord of a Lunar cult, and an illuminate, to become an initiate of the Red Goddess. I wonder if Yelm (and other solar cults that are worshipped in the Lunar empire) is considered Lunar Cults when it comes to this rule. I know that the Red Emperor is considered a sort of "heir to Yelm" as being the emperor of Dara Happa. Or is it necessary to be a priest or lord to the Seven Mothers and other more "pure" Lunar cults.

At the very least, I would expect a qualifying Lunar cult to have a Moon Rune.  That rules out Yelm for the most part.  That said, a Yelmite  could worship Verithurusa as a subcult and qualify.  

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7 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

But I am thinking about the aspect of Yelm that is linked to the Dara Happan aristocracy.

While Yelm is not a Moon cult, the Red Goddess is a sky cult. The Red Goddess is an associate cult of Yelm, as she's his daughter. Illuminated Sun Lords and Priests may become initiates of the Red Goddess cult. Rulers must join the Red Goddess cult as a prerequisite of joining the Yelm Imperator subcult. Likewise as an associate cult, Red Goddess initiates can join Yelm the Priest. 

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On 1/6/2023 at 3:00 AM, David Scott said:

While Yelm is not a Moon cult, the Red Goddess is a sky cult. The Red Goddess is an associate cult of Yelm, as she's his daughter. Illuminated Sun Lords and Priests may become initiates of the Red Goddess cult. Rulers must join the Red Goddess cult as a prerequisite of joining the Yelm Imperator subcult. Likewise as an associate cult, Red Goddess initiates can join Yelm the Priest. 

What is Yelm's attitude to chaos? Is it possible for a daughter to still be an associate cult, even though she is chaotic? 

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1 hour ago, EricW said:

What is Yelm's attitude to chaos?

As for the Yelm cult's attitude to other chaos cult's: These misguided entities are usually beyond the concern of Yelm, barely worthy of being foes. Yelm is friendly with the Lunar Empire and its deities. Although he is no friend of Chaos, his cult is friendly towards Nysalor and Illumination.

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Is it possible for a daughter to still be an associate cult, even though she is chaotic? 

Clearly yes.

The only benefit is to be able to join the Red Goddess cult, you can't get any magic. You can't join unless you are illuminated. Once you are illuminated you know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical.

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9 hours ago, David Scott said:

As for the Yelm cult's attitude to other chaos cult's: These misguided entities are usually beyond the concern of Yelm, barely worthy of being foes. Yelm is friendly with the Lunar Empire and its deities. Although he is no friend of Chaos, his cult is friendly towards Nysalor and Illumination.

Clearly yes.

The only benefit is to be able to join the Red Goddess cult, you can't get any magic. You can't join unless you are illuminated. Once you are illuminated you know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical.

Is not yelm the keeper of the cosmos? I mean, I read somewhere he was chosen by the Old Gods of the celestial Court to keep the creation as it was. He should be a deadly adversary of  anything chaotic, shouldn't he? 

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5 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Is not yelm the keeper of the cosmos? I mean, I read somewhere he was chosen by the Old Gods of the celestial Court to keep the creation as it was. He should be a deadly adversary of  anything chaotic, shouldn't he? 

He was dead when Chaos went rampant and his Big Experience of Bad Things during the Gofs War happens to be being assassinated by rebels.  So he's not likely to see Chaos as Cosmic Enemy Number One, is he?

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11 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Is not yelm the keeper of the cosmos? I mean, I read somewhere he was chosen by the Old Gods of the celestial Court to keep the creation as it was. He should be a deadly adversary of  anything chaotic, shouldn't he? 

Yelm defeated Chaos, or the Pre-Dark, very early on in his rule.

After that, as Peter says, he was not involved with fighting Chaos, as he was already dead. It could be argued that his death allowed Chaos to be brought into Glorantha, for he was not able to keep it at bay. So, Orlanth caused the Chaos Wars.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

He was dead when Chaos went rampant and his Big Experience of Bad Things during the Gofs War happens to be being assassinated by rebels.  So he's not likely to see Chaos as Cosmic Enemy Number One, is he?

Well, He was there when Wakboth came to hell to eat them all and sure he knows that "victory" was a close thing, sure as hell He understood chaos is an existential threat, no simple death but oblivion. 

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3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yelm defeated Chaos, or the Pre-Dark, very early on in his rule.

After that, as Peter says, he was not involved with fighting Chaos, as he was already dead. It could be argued that his death allowed Chaos to be brought into Glorantha, for he was not able to keep it at bay. So, Orlanth caused the Chaos Wars.

Never saw antichaos powers for yelm. Did I miss something? 

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3 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Well, He was there when Wakboth came to hell to eat them all and sure he knows that "victory" was a close thing, sure as hell He understood chaos is an existential threat, no simple death but oblivion.

True, and he knew that everyone must compromise to allow the world to be remade. Perhaps part of his compromise was to allow Chaos to exist, as well as allowing Darkness Deities and Storm Deities to coexist.

1 minute ago, kalidor said:

Never saw antichaos powers for yelm. Did I miss something? 

Not everything that Deities did results in a spell, skill or power.

He fought Mallia, so has Fight Disease, but people could argue that Mallia was Dark Death not Chaos then.

In any case, it shows that Yelm just doesn't care much about Chaos.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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2 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Never saw antichaos powers for yelm. Did I miss something? 

rather specific ones are known, such as fire to purify Chaos, or his curse of VIvamort.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Well, He was there when Wakboth came to hell to eat them all and sure he knows that "victory" was a close thing, sure as hell He understood chaos is an existential threat, no simple death but oblivion. 

The only myth that says he was there when Chaos came to Hell is an Orlanthi one.  In the Yelmic myths, he is accepting the submission of the Rebels who sacrificed themselves to fuel his rebirth.  So I don't think he will necessarily see a distinction between Orlanth and Wakboth (submits, sacrifices himself to become time etc).

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7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The only myth that says he was there when Chaos came to Hell is an Orlanthi one.  In the Yelmic myths, he is accepting the submission of the Rebels who sacrificed themselves to fuel his rebirth.  So I don't think he will necessarily see a distinction between Orlanth and Wakboth (submits, sacrifices himself to become time etc).

Sure there is a Huge difference between Orlanth and the PreDark. Maybe Chaosium's Keepers of Knowledge know otherwise. 

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34 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Sure there is a Huge difference between Orlanth and the PreDark.  

A Yelmite would respond: What's this Predark that you speak of?

Secondly there's a difference between Orlanth and Trolls.  That doesn't mean much to the Yelmites as their crime (Rebellion) is the same.  So why should Chaos be viewed any differently?

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41 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Sure there is a Huge difference between Orlanth and the PreDark. Maybe Chaosium's Keepers of Knowledge know otherwise. 

Yes there is.

Orlanth killed Yelm whereas the PreDark was just a bit of a bother.

Orlanth is far more of an enemy to Yelm than the PreDark ever was.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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1 minute ago, kalidor said:

Sure there is a Huge difference between Orlanth and the PreDark. Maybe Chaosium's Keepers of Knowledge know otherwise. 

Well, for starters, Yelm overcame Jokbazi, a Predark opposition, as prerequisite to become Emperor of the World, as the third of such obstacles (Basko the Black Sun being the first, Molandro the Earth Walker being the second, more substantial one), according to the Black Sun write-up and a throwaway line in the RQ2 RuneQuest Companion Jonstown Compendium snippets.

The Predark (a term coined by the Orlanthi, not the Solars) are a regrettable side effect of using Creation. No act of Creation is pure enough to avoid some Chaos creeping into the world, which may have been why the Solar Emperor opted for Stasis after overthrowing his predecessor.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Well, for starters, Yelm overcame Jokbazi, a Predark opposition, as prerequisite to become Emperor of the World, as the third of such obstacles (Basko the Black Sun being the first, Molandro the Earth Walker being the second, more substantial one), according to the Black Sun write-up and a throwaway line in the RQ2 RuneQuest Companion Jonstown Compendium snippets.

The Predark (a term coined by the Orlanthi, not the Solars) are a regrettable side effect of using Creation. No act of Creation is pure enough to avoid some Chaos creeping into the world, which may have been why the Solar Emperor opted for Stasis after overthrowing his predecessor.

Jokbazi? Who was this entity? Some sort of Wakboth? Sorry guys, as Nick Brooke would say, my glorantha-fu is weak. 

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3 hours ago, kalidor said:

Is not yelm the keeper of the cosmos? I mean, I read somewhere he was chosen by the Old Gods of the celestial Court to keep the creation as it was. He should be a deadly adversary of anything chaotic, shouldn't he? 

These misguided entities are usually beyond the concern of Yelm, barely worthy of being foes.

Have you seen who is the Solar Emperor? In order to join his cult, you need to be an initiate of the Red Goddess. As it's the daughter of the Emperor's son, everything is clearly in the order of things. The cult of Yelm will clearly be upset with any chaos upsetting their order. As Yelm's daughter can control chaos, where's the problem?

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1 hour ago, kalidor said:

Jokbazi? Who was this entity? Some sort of Wakboth?

See RQ Companion p.43: "Jokbazi was the third. It was a hostile thing from beyond the touch of all gods of the world. It was a monster mutable in its monstrosity and accompanied by lesser creatures of horror. To combat it, Yelm summoned all of the celestial hosts and fiery powers. The battle was fought at the Fields of Destiny and the forces of Chaos were overthrown. Afterwards there was no trouble from Chaos in Yelm’s realm."

So, yes, an earlier manifestation of Chaos which Yelm defeated.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

These misguided entities are usually beyond the concern of Yelm, barely worthy of being foes.

Have you seen who is the Solar Emperor? In order to join his cult, you need to be an initiate of the Red Goddess. As it's the daughter of the Emperor's son, everything is clearly in the order of things. The cult of Yelm will clearly be upset with any chaos upsetting their order. As Yelm's daughter can control chaos, where's the problem?

Sorry. I only have RQG, equipment book, smoking ruins, glorantha sourcebook and griffin mountain. I don't know how trusted can be information in internet. 

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