Does the big BRP book shortchange us on superheroes?

[Atgxtg]

Richard Wentworth, The Spider, actually had to battle super villains as a mere mortal. He dealt with an army of 50-foot-tall robots, faced a flying villain calling himself the Bat Man (years before Bruce Wayne adopted his alter ego) who attacked with clouds of poison-toothed vampire bats, and went after an acid-spewing killer The Joker probably cribbed notes from. It all looked like a job for Superman, but he wasn't around yet.

But they are still considered Pulp Heroes. The disction between the two is rather blurred, and depends a lot of who is doing the "distincting."

Yup. Quite on the mark there. IMO it stems from the practice that companies had of adapting thier in house game system to various genres rather than designing a custom set of rules to fit a game setting. Some rules sets fit some settings better than others, and some designers do a better job of adapting. For instance, heros Unlimited is IMO terrible as a supers RPG because the modfied Palladium system used for it had no non lethal combat mechanic. Masked Hero defeats Masked Villian. Villian dies on the spot, or goes into a coman, and the hero is hunted by the authorities. Every time.Of coruse, some players don't mind that. They want to play Palldium with Superpowers. And there are a hosts of settings that use the D&D core system, and end up playing more like D&D that the setting they are supposedly designed for.

I've joked that D&D is a bad fir for a Western RPG. Imagine two high level characters in a shootout. Wyatt Earp vs. Billie the Kid would take all day, and they would have to take time out to relaod.

[Atgxtg]

I completely agree with this. I'd love to see something centered around supers that was firmly grounded in BRP tropes but took a slightly lateral approach.

What I would like to see is something where you could "dial the realism factor" to suit a campaign. Say with BRP core ruls at one end, and a 4-color comic variant at the other. A few alternate rules, some variant tables and the ability to cut & paste stuff.

[pansophy]

What a about the Superworld Box rules - do they do Supers OK, are they good, or need they improvement as well?

[SDLeary]

What I would like to see is something where you could "dial the realism factor" to suit a campaign. Say with BRP core ruls at one end, and a 4-color comic variant at the other. A few alternate rules, some variant tables and the ability to cut & paste stuff.

Honestly, I've thought about this... At the high end it would take sooo much work, and would probably end up something like HQ or SotC anyway, that I'd just skip the conversions and use one of those.

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

What a about the Superworld Box rules - do they do Supers OK, are they good, or need they improvement as well?

They need a lot of editing, and a bit of tightening of the rules at least.

The game CAN build a wide range of characters (I've seen Superman and Galactus statted and paid for), but it takes a lot of time to accomplish. For an exercise, I decided to build Stick from Mospeada, complete with bike armour... each weapon was its own "device" (missiles "flew" and "followed" targets, etc). Character was close to a thousand points IIRC, and was able to be paid for using the disadvantages system. It IS a very good build system.

The issue is that the way this was paid for were with holes in the system that were simply taken advantage of.

SDLeary

[Toadmaster]

It is not just BRP, Supers just seems to be one of those genres designed to break a game system.

Personally I think the real problem lays with the source material. Unlike more "realistic" genres that have relatively stable physics, comics tend to have poor continuity, leading to wandering target points. In one issue Superman may lift an aircraft carrier, but in another he struggles to move a much lighter locomotive. One week he laughs off a 16" naval shell, and the next he is staggerd by a tank round. Another issue is variable power levels, Superman is clearly orders of magnitude more powerful than Batman, yet when they work together they are fairly equal.

I think a BRP Supers option is possible, but it would be better to make one unique to BRP rather than trying to emulate Marvel and DC comics to closely.

[Simlasa]

It is not just BRP, Supers just seems to be one of those genres designed to break a game system.

Personally I think the real problem lays with the source material...

I very much agree with this!

Superheros comics are not just a genre but a medium... and trying to recreate that in another form... especially one that doesn't have pre-ordained plots and dialogue... is pretty much guaranteed to result in something different from the original. Keep the concept of superheros but don't waste time trying to emulate the comics... come up with something concieved to play off of the strengths of RPGs instead.

[dragonewt]

How about using BRP to portray these scenes from the movie "Robot" [Warning: Contains gratuitous violence, but no animal cruelty that I could find].

Are there any suggestions on how to handle the action shown at the 1 minute 45 seconds mark?

Edited February 24, 2011 by dragonewt

[wbcreighton]

That's hilarious.

[silent_bob]

It is not just BRP, Supers just seems to be one of those genres designed to break a game system.

Personally I think the real problem lays with the source material. Unlike more "realistic" genres that have relatively stable physics, comics tend to have poor continuity, leading to wandering target points. In one issue Superman may lift an aircraft carrier, but in another he struggles to move a much lighter locomotive. One week he laughs off a 16" naval shell, and the next he is staggerd by a tank round. Another issue is variable power levels, Superman is clearly orders of magnitude more powerful than Batman, yet when they work together they are fairly equal.

I think a BRP Supers option is possible, but it would be better to make one unique to BRP rather than trying to emulate Marvel and DC comics to closely.

Good Points. I am running a BRP supers game that is similar to the Heroes TV series and the BRP rules seem to work well for that power level.

[Jason D]

I think "goldbook" BRPs difficulties in handling high powered characters isn't intention, but merely a byproduct of adding Superpowers to the BRP core rules, without the necessary adjustments for supers that Superworld had. That the designer used Worlds of Wonder Superworld booklet rather than the Superowlrd box set also played a factor.

But that is just my impression. Jason put "goldbook" BRP together, so he's the guy who would "know" what his intentions were. The point is probably moot anyway. The fact remains that BRP doesn't handle the supers genre well, and that there are those who would like to see something like the Superworld supplment for the new BRP, so there is at least some market for it.

Two things:

a) I had Superworld (the boxed edition) and referred to it frequently during the writing. Unfortunately, it is heavily eratta-ed, and I didn't think it balanced as well with the simpler presentation of BRP I was striving for.

I think BRP works very well with characters of about "classic" X-Men level (minus Phoenix), or at lower power levels. Since the X-Men are the most popular superhero team in the world, saleswise, I thought it was a safe target to shoot for. With JLA members and even the Avengers, it breaks down and isn't ideal.

At one point, long long ago (15 years?), I was in the process of licensing Superworld with another author and we were going to radically re-invent the system to accomodate the genre. Various complications made it fall through, but it would have been interesting.

[Conrad]

How about using BRP to portray these scenes from the movie "Robot" [Warning: Contains gratuitous violence, but no animal cruelty that I could find].

Are there any suggestions on how to handle the action shown at the 1 minute 45 seconds mark?

Bozhe moi! ...er I mean, enakku idhu romba pidikkuthu! Would any gamesystem be able to simulate such over the top fun?

[dragonewt]

Various complications made it fall through, but it would have been interesting.

How many character points did you receive for them?

[soltakss]

Bozhe moi! ...er I mean, enakku idhu romba pidikkuthu! Would any gamesystem be able to simulate such over the top fun?

HeroQuest could, but you'd have to describe what you wanted to do and how you were doing it.

[seneschal]

The variable physics/power-level phenomenon is a real shame because RuneQuest plus Superworld begs for a Darkwing Duck adaptation. Given the amount of punishment he takes, he'll have to have lots of Defense and Regeneration.

[Conrad]

HeroQuest could, but you'd have to describe what you wanted to do and how you were doing it.

OK Soltakss, don't rub it in, and make me use my gravity cannon on you!

[soltakss]

OK Soltakss, don't rub it in, and make me use my gravity cannon on you!

I see your Gravity Cannon 5M and use my Ignore Physical Laws 10M3 to evade it.

Have I mentioned that HeroQuest is really, really good for SuperHero games?

[Atgxtg]

Two things:

a) I had Superworld (the boxed edition) and referred to it frequently during the writing. Unfortunately, it is heavily eratta-ed, and I didn't think it balanced as well with the simpler presentation of BRP I was striving for.

I agree. It didn't. But I also think the added complexity was needed to fit the genre.

I think BRP works very well with characters of about "classic" X-Men level (minus Phoenix), or at lower power levels. Since the X-Men are the most popular superhero team in the world, saleswise, I thought it was a safe target to shoot for. With JLA members and even the Avengers, it breaks down and isn't ideal.

I don't think it could handle "X-Men" level very well. One thing about BRP is that it is simply to easy to kill a character with an attack at "X-Man" level. BRP is just not as forgiving as the X-Men comic. Attacks that would leave a character in the comics lying on the group unconscious would put thier BRP counterpart in a body bag. Not that this is a bad thing. It is just the difference between BRP lethality and the comics.

There is a scense in one of the issues of Avengers where Hawkeye threatens to shoot a villain (Power Man or whatever he changed it to) with an arrow. The villian doesn't back down and Hawkeye actually does it. The bad guy is shocked as despite years of shooting people, Hawe\keye has never managed to penetrate someone with an arrow before. The effect is like running a group of D&Ders in BRP and having one of them get impaled by an arrow.

At one point, long long ago (15 years?), I was in the process of licensing Superworld with another author and we were going to radically re-invent the system to accomodate the genre. Various complications made it fall through, but it would have been interesting.

[Atgxtg]

Have I mentioned that HeroQuest is really, really good for SuperHero games?

Yeah, but I don't think you could prove it. For one thing HQ rates everything in a relative fashion. Supoers would need some sort of benchmarks to show just how fast, strong, etc. they are. Strong 10W3 works okay in Glorantha, but isn't worth crap if you are trying to pick up a tank.

Another problemis that in HQ all things are equal. A character can, overcome a foe's Nuclear Death Ray ability with lLepidoptery. Just how is a mystery (bore the bad guy with trivia until he surrenders?), but HQ allows it.

I think that for HQ to be a really, really good superhero game the abilties would need to be defined, and that is the big no-no.

[soltakss]

Oh, I wouldn't use HQ2, as I don't think it would work very well.

HQ1 is probably a better fit.

You can certainly build a scale of sizes for Strong, or a scale of speeds, or whatever, for PCs to overcome in certain situations. The trick is to work out what the scales are beforehand.

As to which abilities work, that is a matter for discussion between GM and player. I'd put heavy penalties on abilities that clearly shouldn't work, so the PC has a chance but not a good one.

But, the point isn't that HeroQuest is a better system than BRP, it is just that, in my opinion, it works better for Supers.

[pansophy]

One thing about BRP is that it is simply to easy to kill a character with an attack at "X-Man" level

I don't know, but this seems to be a very easy thing to solve: Simply rule that characters cannot die (I have never seen a real SuperHero die) but just render him unconscious. And make sure to use the Total Hitpoint Option as well as lots of fate-points.

X-Men will do ok with that. But in the end, it is just a matter of style. I also do think that different people have different opinions about what a SuperHero is and how much better that hero would be compared to normal folks. There are also such a lot of different subsections that define a superhero.

My opinion: BRP does Supers very good - in its own way. It might need some rule here and there, but overall it is doing heros like Batman, Spiderman & Co in a way I would expect it to handle them.

[dragonewt]

I see your Gravity Cannon 5M and use my Ignore Physical Laws 10M3 to evade it.

I am afraid to see what skill use this might escalate to.

[seneschal]

Oops! I'd been reading it as "Gravy Cannon" and was about to ask that the device be statted up.

[Atgxtg]

Oh, I wouldn't use HQ2, as I don't think it would work very well.

HQ1 is probably a better fit.

Quite clarification. By HQ1 do you mean HQ1 or HeroWars (the name HQ was forced to go by when somebody else had the copy write on the HQ name)?

I think I have HQ1, and haven't seen the latest version. But I think I agree with you on this. The new version relative scaling is good for the type of heroic fantasy gaming that the game was built for, but would be a nightmare for the superhero genre.

Since Supers can routninly do impossible things we need an absolute scale just so we can wrap our head around what they are actually doing.

You can certainly build a scale of sizes for Strong, or a scale of speeds, or whatever, for PCs to overcome in certain situations. The trick is to work out what the scales are beforehand. [/qote]

I think you have the right approach, Ijust think that it is going in the opposite direction than the designers intended. And it would mean a ot of work. Powers would need to be "scaled" for things like speed and so forth. Not that we need things broken down to meters per second, we just need some benchmarks so we know if PCs are faster than a speeding bullet/pickup truck/fighter jet/etc. or not.

I7d suggest swiping a scale from another Supers RPG, but frankly, it is easier just to play a Superhero RPG than reinvent the wheel.

And that is where I think HQ would be a problem. With so many different powers and possibles, the GM would need to do a lot of this. So much so that doing it out beforehand (like the scaling) would be adviseable. Otherwise, it probably won't be done in a consistent manner.

I7d be sorely tempted to try and rate all the powers on the same scale to try and simplify this.

Than BRP?. Maybe with a lot of work. The HQ game mechanic is certainly adaptable (I've been tpying with the idea of a HQ Star Wars campaign). But I think it is much easier to use Superworld/BRP than to adapt HQ.

One big obstacle I can see with HQ is the character generation process. In HQ, abilities/keywords are set at 13 or 17, PCs doe have some discretionary points, but even so no ability can vary by more than a few points. That would mean that to get workable superpowers the GM would need to alter the chargen to allow for much higher values. 5W Strength just ins't good enough for a superstrong hero.

But I still say that HQ isn't a really, really good game for supers. It COULD be reworked into one, but I don't see much reason to. These days there are at least a dozen Superhero RPGs out there, and one o them could do the job. Frankly, I don't think HQ7s strengths really add much to the genre. Supre HQ is infinitively scalable, but I don't think it would be that satisfying in game play.

In the comics heroes manage to take on and beat foes who completely outclass them, "on paper". In HQ the augments from very high stats are enough to make the HUlk too tough for Captain America to dodge.

[Atgxtg]

I don't know, but this seems to be a very easy thing to solve: Simply rule that characters cannot die (I have never seen a real SuperHero die) but just render him unconscious. And make sure to use the Total Hitpoint Option as well as lots of fate-points.

It's not that easy. For example, in the Comics, heroes get sent flying, then get up and continue the fight. With BRP a strong character is probably going to take a weaker one out (0HP) with one it.

Whatever option used, would need to be applied to the NPC mooks, too, or else the PCs are going to be warned for murder fairly soon.

And then some attacks simply should be treated as lethal. A burst from a SMG isn't going to just knock Batman out.

X-Men will do ok with that. But in the end, it is just a matter of style.

Game Mechanics have a lot to do with that. For instance, if someone has an attack that no one bought armor against, then the PCs are toast. Those "X-Men" would have a hard time in BRP if they were up against the Radioactive Man.

I also do think that different people have different opinions about what a SuperHero is and how much better that hero would be compared to normal folks. There are also such a lot of different subsections that define a superhero.

True, to some extent, but most of the major heroes and villians in the comics have had thier abilties defined to some extent. For instance the Hulk, Thor and the rest of MArvel7s "A list" strongmen can lift 100+ tons, and giving us a decent benchmark for working up a BRP STR score. Where I see problems is in what they can do with that score in the game.