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Clarification sought on Jonstown Compendium


Agentorange

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Over on the Rq facebook page there's a little discussion going on about crafting and crafting deities. Someone mentioned Durev the first housekeeper  and jeff stated that Durev wa sa HW relic and wouldn't be in the cults book.
 

Which made me wonder...obviously people can't write up these old cults etc for  offical RQG. But can they write them up for the JC as long as they make it abundantly clear that this now non canonical , not the official position and so on.

the guidelienes do say:

"The Jonstown Compendium does not permit creators to update or convert scenarios, cults, or stat blocks from works published by Chaosium – we advise you to email us about such things as a pitch via the Chaosium submisions page. However, a sequel (or even a prequel) would be possible, provided it has more original content than content referenced. "

As say Durev is no longer published in any form ( and was originally published by Issaries ? ) is it ok to convert and publish with all the appropriate caveats, credits etc etc ?

EDIT: my own gut feeling on this no it won't be OK, due to copyright issues, ownership of material etc.

 

Edited by Agentorange
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4 hours ago, Agentorange said:

As say Durev is no longer published in any form ( and was originally published by Issaries ? ) is it ok to convert and publish with all the appropriate caveats, credits etc etc ?

EDIT: my own gut feeling on this no it won't be OK, due to copyright issues, ownership of material etc.

What you present in a JC publication is not canonical. A diety by that name can certainly exist in your version of Glorantha and you can certainly present your vision as to what it is and what its cult, if it exists, looks like. (Note: I have done that.)

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Chaosium owns Glorantha and Runequest.  The only thing they don't own is the name "Heroquest".  The current braintrust doesn't particularly like the direction Heroquest went with tons of subcults, but there's nothing, legal or otherwise, stopping you from using your own versions of that material in a book you put on the JC (obviously simply cut and pasting existing text is always plagarism)

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As well as simple cut’n’pasting, excessive paraphrasing is also out. You need to write a lot of original, creative material without quoting or rewriting Thunder Rebels. (You can cross-reference it, of course, or not bother doing that: it’s your book, after all.)

Some extra guidance:

The limit on duplicated text includes paraphrasing — that is, restating or summarizing the ideas and content from an existing work in your own words. If you find yourself summarizing a single work for more than one or two standard-length paragraphs in a row, you are paraphrasing too much. Instead, point the reader to the original work you’re referencing and move on to your own material building off that source. You can spread your paraphrases around in your project, but if all the summaries of any single source add up to more than a full page or two in your book, you are summarizing too much from that one source. Cut the summaries back and point the reader to the original.

“Originally published by Issaries” makes no difference, here. Like all of Greg Stafford’s Gloranthan IP, the old Issaries, Inc. books are owned by Moon Design, and you can’t simply copy or paraphrase them into your JC title. (Please don’t do the wriggly thing, I hate to see it.)

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6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

“Originally published by Issaries” makes no difference, here. Like all of Greg Stafford’s Gloranthan IP, the old Issaries, Inc. books are owned by Moon Design, and you can’t simply copy or paraphrase them into your JC title. (Please don’t do the wriggly thing, I hate to see it.)

the wriggly thing ?

Edited by Nick Brooke
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2 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

8ABBCCCD-771B-4B6F-8D76-5CF6F0DD09AC.jpeg.c20ecdd870a8afb38ea6c40c05e20b18.jpeg

Ah, right !

i think we're singing from the same hymn sheet anyway. if you look at my original post i said my gut instinct was that it couldn't be done due to copyright issues and ownership of material - which is pretty much what you confirmed in your first response.

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To be clear: when we said "don't update or convert our books," we are ruling out lateral conversions from Hero Wars / HeroQuest 1e or 2e / QuestWorlds to (either supported version of) RuneQuest or to 13th Age Glorantha, and vice versa, as well as vertical conversions in any direction (e.g. from Hero Wars to QuestWorlds, HeroQuest 1e to QuestWorlds, RuneQuest 1e / 3e / [Mongoose / Mythras] to RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha or RuneQuest Classic, etc.). I'm including the Mongoose & Design Mechanism editions for clarity: you can't use any of that on the Jonstown Compendium.

Please don't waste your time rewriting Thunder Rebels as a RuneQuest supplement, or Barbarian Adventures as a RuneQuest campaign, or anything along those lines. Write something original, creative and new instead! You can use names and cross-reference material from older Chaosium and Moon Design books, including obscure stuff like the Stafford Library or decanonised and no-longer-available stuff like the Hero Wars and HeroQuest books, but you can't quote or paraphrase it at any length. We don't want you to do that; it's not what the community content programme is for.

I hope this is clear. If you have any other questions, just ask. I'd hate anyone to get the wrong end of the stick.

Edited by Nick Brooke
Adding 13th Age Glorantha before another question drops.
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9 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

8ABBCCCD-771B-4B6F-8D76-5CF6F0DD09AC.jpeg.c20ecdd870a8afb38ea6c40c05e20b18.jpeg

it's a shame in a way. Although i never really got on with HW/HQ as a system i thought some of the background supplements had lots of great info in. I liked the notion of little subcults etc. Still i can go down that route in my own private Glorantha if I so wish.

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49 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

it's a shame in a way. Although i never really got on with HW/HQ as a system i thought some of the background supplements had lots of great info in. I liked the notion of little subcults etc. Still i can go down that route in my own private Glorantha if I so wish.

As I understand it, you still can go down that route (including on the JC).

You can *explicitly* include (e.g.) Durev & his role in the world, that's clear from the JC rules... you just need to write your own new myths describing him & his background &c.

Same for the many other smaller cults / sub-cults.

(If I have misunderstood, @Nick Brooke, please correct me!)

 

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Of course you can. But you can’t do it by simply copying or paraphrasing someone else’s book. We aren’t stopping you using those obsolete names that nobody will recognise in your original community content creations. You  just have to write something original that uses them.

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33 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Of course you can. But you can’t do it by simply copying or paraphrasing someone else’s book. We aren’t stopping you using those obsolete names that nobody will recognise in your original community content creations. You  just have to write something original that uses them.

Well, leaving aside the fact i suspect a lot of old grognards would know the names  😁 And new comers to the game won't know who's who anyway....

The obvious question is: what's the point ?  there is as they say no point in re inventing the wheel. the various minor cults, gods ( godlets ? - whatever ! ) already have a myth cycle . It would seem a rather fruitless and pointless activity to make up a new bunch of myths for them if they're not going to be in the game anyway.
 Those of us who do want to use them will just homebrew some rules/ stats/spells etc as we need them.

Edited by Agentorange
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Here's a concrete example, not a cult nor a deity, but a repurposing of something from the HeroQuest era.

In The Children of Hykim I have a short chapter on the Puma People, who were introduced into Glorantha via HeroQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha and the accompanying HeroQuest Voices publication. A Puma Person had a minor walk-on role in The Eleven Lights. They are a non-Hsunchen shapechanging people, and I think they had their origin in a story by Greg.

They aren't mentioned in the Guide to Glorantha, nor any RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha book, and I feel fairly sure that they have been retconned out of existence.

My JC book allows you to use them as PCs or NPCs in a RuneQuest game, should you wish. I believe what I've provided is entirely compatible with what was said in the HQ sources, but doesn't repeat any of it directly. That was a choice, it's clearly not essential.

You could do the same with Durev (I can't personally see the point, but set that aside). I think there are a few key points.

If Chaosium had already done a Hsunchen book for HQ, converting that across to RQ:G would not be acceptable, however much paraphrasing took place. But there is scope to repurpose, to re-imagine (emphasis on "imagine"), to expand (with permission, if the kernel of source material merits it), and so on. Most of the chapters in The Children of Hykim are massive expansions on tiny paragraphs and even throwaway lines from previous official publications. It offers readers something that doesn't compete with Chaosium's plans but is hopefully useful, creative and entertaining.

So for me that would be the interesting question for Durev. There's no point just reiterating the sub-cult in RQ terms. There's possibly little point doing a book that describes "ordinary" Sartarite life, given that Chaosium will be publishing their own Sartar book, and it will hopefully be definitive. But is there scope for a book about Sartarite (or other) crafting, in a way that doesn't just conflict with Weapons & Equipment? A book that provides gameable material on craft trades, their rituals, magic, guilds, objets d'art, scenario hooks, example tradesfolk characters, etc.  Riffing on The Book of Heortling Mythology, where Durev was called the Woodwright, what could that mean in an RQ:G world? The myths say that Durev himself was carved out of wood, Pinnochio style. Just who is allowed to work as a woodwright in Orlanthi culture anyway? There must be much more scope in treating this outdated old relic as a jumping-off point for something new, than there is just repeating stuff that no longer fits with how the culture and its mythos is presented.

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The Silver best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "An amazing labor of love" - Evan Franke, Exploring Glorantha. "A deep dive" - Joerg Baumgartner. "Excellent sourcebook, well-written and well-researched" - Niall Sullivan. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H.

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Well, other examples are possible. I used a moderately-obscure myth from the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm in my Black Spear mini-campaign, and Michael O’Brien kindly allowed me to reprint that myth, in its entirety, as part of my book. I asked; I got permission. That’s how it works. (Same goes for everything else I got permission to use. The whole list takes up two pages at the front of the book)

Pro tip: to screen out those niggly-wriggly types, you’ll most likely need to demonstrate what you’re intending to do with our stuff, at least until you have a track record of successful community content publications. And we’ve told you not to “update” Hero Wars books, so please don’t show us that that’s what you’re planning to do. You surely know how to contact us by now.

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14 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

.  Riffing on The Book of Heortling Mythology, where Durev was called the Woodwright, what could that mean in an RQ:G world? The myths say that Durev himself was carved out of wood, Pinnochio style. Just who is allowed to work as a woodwright in Orlanthi culture anyway? There must be much more scope in treating this outdated old relic as a jumping-off point for something new, than there is just repeating stuff that no longer fits with how the culture and its mythos is presented.

Now, in a way you have sort of got to the heart of what I've been trying to articulate with this. Durev is part of the old HQ approach to things. To be honest until the  facebook post I'd never heard of him. I just used him as an example because he popped up in the conversation. Now as I suspected and Nick confirmed you can't just write up the Thunder Rebels version of him slap it into the JC and expect to get away with it. Quite apart from the legality of it it would feel ( to me anyway ) like plagiarism - like nicking someones work.

Having said that he does seem to have a life outside of HQ, you've referred to the BHM ( which I don't have - another one to add to the list 😆 ). So....what makes one source acceptable to use.....but not another. If   I were seeking inspiration for the sartarite crafts book  you suggested ( and I have no intention of writing such a thing - I wouldn't have a clue where to start ) what would make the BHM an acceptable source, but not the TR from HQ ? if you see what I mean

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Personally, I am happy to draw "from all ages of Gloranthan publication", to quote one very insightful reviewer. For me, it's all potential inspiration, stuff to draw upon in the same manner as Nick used GRoY. Grist to the mill. Toppings for the pizza. It doesn't matter whether it's right, so long as it's useful and hangs together consistently. Sometimes even the things that feel like they'd be out-of-place still make sense when placed next to each other (pineapple? Who knew!)

Having said that I tried quite hard for conistency with current canon (especially the Guide to Glorantha). I don't really care too much about canon as far as playing the game goes, but I've noticed that some others online seem to care about it a lot, and I didn't want to listen to any quibbles about "no, it's not like that". Much more importantly, I took to heart a quote from Nadia Boulanger that an architect friend of mine shared:

Quote

Great art likes chains. The greatest artists have created art within bounds. Or else they have created their own chains.

Obviously, we're not talking great art here. But self-imposed restrictions of some sort can be a way to focus the mind, and wriggling around to test the limits of that straitjacket can, for me, inspire ideas. It also acts as a quick decision-making filter: is this consistent? No, then it's out. Or find a creative way to make it consistent.

11 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

what would make the BHM an acceptable source, but not the TR from HQ

They are both considered out-of-date, but I like my myth to be enigmatic and contradictory anyway, so it feels easy to grab and adapt as required. Material on how the culture operates, on the other hand, which includes the cult affiliations, is much more likely to be contradicted in the game rules, official sourcebooks, and other scenarios. The further you depart from the current norms of the setting, the harder it is for anyone aligned with those norms to use your stuff. And much as I believe in radical visions of Glorantha, I wouldn't personally spend a lot of time writing for the Jonstown Compendium just for nobody to read it.

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The Silver best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "An amazing labor of love" - Evan Franke, Exploring Glorantha. "A deep dive" - Joerg Baumgartner. "Excellent sourcebook, well-written and well-researched" - Niall Sullivan. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H.

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31 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Now, in a way you have sort of got to the heart of what I've been trying to articulate with this. Durev is part of the old HQ approach to things. To be honest until the  facebook post I'd never heard of him. I just used him as an example because he popped up in the conversation. Now as I suspected and Nick confirmed you can't just write up the Thunder Rebels version of him slap it into the JC and expect to get away with it. Quite apart from the legality of it it would feel ( to me anyway ) like plagiarism - like nicking someones work.

Having said that he does seem to have a life outside of HQ, you've referred to the BHM ( which I don't have - another one to add to the list 😆 ). So....what makes one source acceptable to use.....but not another. If   I were seeking inspiration for the sartarite crafts book  you suggested ( and I have no intention of writing such a thing - I wouldn't have a clue where to start ) what would make the BHM an acceptable source, but not the TR from HQ ? if you see what I mean

There is absolutely no difference between the two in terms of acceptability, to my mind. Whichever source you draw from, Thunder Rebels or the myths Stafford and others wrote as background for Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe as collected in The Book of Heortling Mythology, you're still drawing from the well of an older version of the setting with significantly different cosmology and outlook as to how to interact with that setting, and part and parcel of that cosmology and that outlook is a particular "anthropological" way of building out the setting from its base setup which produced Durev, Voudisea the Lance Goddess, Enferalda, and all the rest. 

So one answer is to try and take those bits and bobs which you enjoy or find intriguing and work them into a shape that fits into the cosmology and outlook of Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha. Good luck, have fun, it will almost certainly be an uphill struggle given the formation of RQG as a reaction to Hero Wars and Heroquest, but it's an option. Another answer, of course, is to simply fork Glorantha from that Hero Wars vision and present your own alternate developed vision, whether explicitly or implicitly, in Jonstown Compendium products. This probably won't sell well, but perhaps there are people who feel underserved by the current vision who would appreciate it. And then a third option is to simply do your own thing without selling it, and present it publicly or not, without commercialization. Many choices. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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You can give your own original stuff away via the Jonstown Compendium. We don’t recommend it, as a rule, but you don’t have to commercialise what you’re creating. You just have to create something original.

Edited by Nick Brooke
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3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think it might help some of us if you added to this thread a link or source which more fully describes the JC guidelines.

It's all right in the Jonstown Compendium on DTRPG!  If you just click on the JC image under Chaosium, the intro paragraph tells what the JC is, and how to submit content including the link.

For direct reference here: https://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036896591-Jonstown-Compendium-Content-Guidelines

Edited by jajagappa
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2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

... To be honest until the  facebook post I'd never heard of him. I just used him as an example because he popped up in the conversation ...

You might get better answers -- more targeted to your needs -- if you had a specific example that you were actually hoping to use.
I've been observing that "hypothetical cases" never really seem to settle anything; there was an extensive go-round on a bunch of hypotheticals surrounding the BRP OGL+SRD.

 

2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

...
Having said that he does seem to have a life outside of HQ, you've referred to the BHM ( which I don't have - another one to add to the list 😆 ). So....what makes one source acceptable to use.....but not another.   If I were seeking inspiration for the sartarite crafts book  you suggested ( and I have no intention of writing such a thing - I wouldn't have a clue where to start ) what would make the BHM an acceptable source, but not the TR from HQ ? if you see what I mean

Both are acceptable sources to reference, or (very briefly) to quote; they do not differentiate in this context.

I will point out, though (not as a member of Chaosium, just as a prospective JC author) that TR is explicitly a player-facing book of RPG rules; as-such, it would seem an easy error to slip across the line into paraphrasing, re-writing (at least parts of) TR into RQG rules, and hence falling afoul of the proscription.

BoHM, in contrast, is 100% "Glorantha-phile" fluff, entirely absent of RPG rules or "gamer-facing" content (i.e. something for a player or GM to "run"); it needs to be gamified to be gamed at the table.  You still need to not simply copy it, or even just paraphrase it; but the content -- not being game-rules -- doesn't IMHO lend itself as readily to being paraphrased as game-rules.

 

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It's all right in the Jonstown Compendium on DTRPG!  If you just click on the JC image under Chaosium, the intro paragraph tells what the JC is, and how to submit content including the link.

For direct reference here: https://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036896591-Jonstown-Compendium-Content-Guidelines

Thanks for the link, though, when I click on it, it doesn't take be to https://support.drivethrurpg.com/..., it takes me to the top of this BRP thread.  Please correct...

BTW, I am familiar with the JC stuff, but providing the link may answer OP's question simpler than a lot of back and forth discussion.

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