Did Arkat Ever Use Chaotic Magic?

[Ormi Phengaria]

If one's imagined solution to interpersonal violence is to just mark up some violence as impersonally necessary, no matter its horror or existential meaninglessness, I don't think you can coherently call resistance to that idea a "perpetual pogrom." And that is the nicest thing I can say about that choice of words.

[AndreasDavour]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:26 AM, Jeff said:

Love it! For me the Arkat story winds through Glorantha. It is a funhouse mirror show where certainties fail once you move further, and truth requires great sacrifices to find. It is a cautionary tale about the dangers inherent in spiritual exploration, and the abuses that so-often accompany the "enlightened". And we should not forget that in the end, Arkat finds peace and balance - but we need to remain with him for the entirety of the ride.

Quoted for truth.

For me, Arkat is Glorantha. It was what hooked me on the setting, and his story summarize so much of what makes Glorantha a real world.

Remember, we are all Arkat. We are all us.

[John Biles]

On 2/17/2023 at 7:00 AM, mfbrandi said:

The collapse of the difference between Chaos and Law is said not to legitimize the collapse of personal ethics and personal desire (i.e. if I want it, it is right for me to have it) — it is a false parallel. As far as I can see, the sin of the Dark Siders (very Jack Kirby) is non-cooperation, which is said to imply non-creativity. But it is allowed that Chaos can create — else no Glorantha — so Chaos does not imply the dark side … and we are told Law does not exclude it.

(Because it is a false parallel — a bad argument — it is utterly unclear what Chaos, Law, and illumination have to do with the dark side. One might just as well say that because there is no final difference between Lemons and Oranges, I can do whatever I like and it is OK. Cue demented cultists setting fire to all the lemon trees to prevent my lousy behaviour.)

To quote Discworld (Carpe Jugulum):

A discussion between the witch Granny Weatherwax and Omnian missionary Mightily-Praiseworthy-Are-Ye-Who-Exalteth-Om Oats.

“And that’s what your holy men discuss, is it?”

“Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example.”

“And what do they think? Against it, are they?”

“It’s not as simple as that. It’s not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of grey.”

“Nope.”

“Pardon?”

“There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”

“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”

“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”

“But they starts with thinking about people as things.”

Treating others as objects to get what you want is the fundamental sin of the occulted (the illuminated who go to the dark side as you put it).  Illumination tells you that the distinctions on which you base your world view don't exist, they're all made up and arbitrary.  Ideally, this means you have compassion for others, because you and they are one, in the end.  But the occulted take it as 'I can do anything I want and everyone else exists for my gain; I need have no regard for what they want; laws and limits do not exist'.

This is sometimes combined with 'I have gone extremely bonkers due to mystical insight and I now have a really insane plan', but not always.  The EWF's leaders were pretty high on their own supply, while Arkat and Argath just didn't care about anything except revenge.

Because here's the thing - illumination removes all fear and protects you from supernatural punishment for breaking the law.  But it does nothing to get rid of your passions.  And those, now unchained, can easily lead you to become a force of destruction that Chaos can only dream of matching, most of the time.  It can also lead you to thinking you can monkey with Chaos and it will be just fine.  This is like trying to build things run by nuclear power when you don't fear radiation.

Failing to recognize that illumination won't actually get rid of your dark qualities is why Sheng Seleris happened.

 

 

[davecake]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:26 AM, Jeff said:

As the trolls say, once Arkat became a troll there was no perfidy or betrayal in him. His true self brought the balance of living peace.

And it’s worth noting that while most of Arkats Orlanthi and Humakti followers felt betrayed, some of them stuck with him to the very end. Notably, Makla Mann was renowned for this, and is revered as the epitome of loyalty, and is still a widespread hero cult. He teaches Stop Resurrection, handing for fighting vampires but also those that might break their Humakti vows because they fear death. 
(if there is a place that an Arkati secret society would be hiding within the Humakt cult, this would be an obvious place, apart from the very nature of the sub-cult making it beyond suspicion, or so they say, right?)

[davecake]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:33 AM, scott-martin said:

Arkat by definition disrupts the magicosocial fabric and leaves nothing new in its place.

Not according to the trolls, obviously, or the Arkat cults. But it is true that Illuminates can not be trusted to respect power, and are often resented by the powerful everywhere. 

[davecake]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:17 AM, mfbrandi said:

I think it is the apparently unmotivated hatred for Chaos — as opposed to having enemies who happen to be chaotic — that is the hook.

It’s notable that when Arkat first goes to war against Nysalor/Niebie, it’s because of their deception - presenting themselves as saviors when they are the creators of the problem. He may not have even realised how deep the connection to Chaos went at first. And in his early battles (eg Night and Day) Nysalor seemed to no obvious connection to Chaos at all. 
Though Chaotic allies of Nysalor certainly surfaced pretty early (the Vampire Kings of Tanisor the Telmori), it seems that Nysalor turns to Chaos more as Arkat presses him, and Arkat turns to anti-Chaos more (in his turn to the trolls, who have the greatest anti-Chaos powers). But he turns away from them, and afterwards is said to without perfidy. And he names his enemy Gbaji, Deceiver. 

I think to Arkat, deception is Nysalors original sin, more than Chaos even, and unforgivable when dealing with the most sacred matters. 

[davecake]

A thought - whether Arkat ever embraces Chaos (and I tend to think he did not, but admit the ambiguity is open), what is clear is that he began as devoted to Law, and his greatest weapons where those of the Law (his Unbreakable Sword, soon after embracing Hrestoli sorcery) and by the end of his journey had absolutely rejected allegiance to Law and rejected the Law/Chaos dichotomy. I think this applies no matter your conception of the Law. 

[davecake]

On 2/20/2023 at 11:09 AM, John Biles said:

while Arkat and Argath just didn't care about anything except revenge.

I don’t think that is it. Arkat is not seeking revenge. He believes that Nysalor is a problem, a threat to all that is good, that can only be solved by Nysalors destruction. He does not seek further revenge against the allies of Nysalor etc. 

And Argrath. He starts on his journey due to revenge oaths maybe, but I don’t think that is what drives him. But every 600 years there is a threat to the world, and now it is his turn. 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s notable that when Arkat first goes to war against Nysalor/Niebie, it’s because of their deception - presenting themselves as saviors when they are the creators of the problem. He may not have even realised how deep the connection to Chaos went at first. And in his early battles (eg Night and Day) Nysalor seemed to no obvious connection to Chaos at all. 

Niebie's prophets spreading a disease only they could cure by enlightening the victims may be seen as a form of austerities meant to lead to illumination. The perpretators may not even have perceived this method as evil but as benevolent, to spread a spark of illumination to as many recipients as possible. The Niebie disease may have been a Riddle.

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Though Chaotic allies of Nysalor certainly surfaced pretty early (the Vampire Kings of Tanisor the Telmori),

To start with, these allies of Nysalor got access to raw Creation for their powers - the godly beast of the Telmori, and a chance at immortality for the Tanisoran kings in an initially not too malevolent pyramid scheme.

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

it seems that Nysalor turns to Chaos more as Arkat presses him,

It pretty much says so. Use of raw Creation gets out of control. The users of these powers get to choose helpful features, or learn to refute detrimental ones by controlling that Creation to some human-possible extent.

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

and Arkat turns to anti-Chaos more (in his turn to the trolls, who have the greatest anti-Chaos powers).

A logical choice then would have been Storm Bull rather than Humakt, except that the foe at the time may still have been the Vampire Kings, and Arkat still learning about the nature of his adversary.

His path into Darkness would have been pre-ordained when he faced his Darkness Self, contracting the Unhealable Wound from Zorak Zoran's powers - again an austerity leading to another stage of Enlightenment. (I'll idly wonder how Gloranthan history had turned out if he had received a draconic injury instead.)

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

But he turns away from them, and afterwards is said to without perfidy.

He does not betray them - Arkat's Command grants the trolls of Dagori Inkarth a share in the rich Dara Happan plunder his Heortling allies collected while the trolls fought and bled against Dorastor (to be collected by the Kitori Shadowlords already upholding the Only Old One's cohesion through the older Shadow Tribute/mutual aid program), and he establishes the new colony of Guhan near his seat of retirement, possibly visiting them regularly, possibly in Troll shape.

In post-Gbaji Wars Kerofinela, the Kitori Shadowlords were named Arkati (or Arkatings) and vice versa (as per History of the Heortling Peoples), and the shape-shifting power seems to have been available to the more dedicated followers of Arkat.

If his followers knew the secrets of the Nightcult, there is a good possibility that Arkat and his companions themselves possessed this secret as well, making all of his human appearance after the battle a rather trivial thing.

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

And he names his enemy Gbaji, Deceiver. 

He did so already from the outset. And my personal ("dumbest") theory still is that Gbaji was indeed the layer of Deception that separated Nysalor from Arkat and Arkat from Nysalor, the perceptive filter that made either perceive the Other as a vile abomination rather than the mystical shadow, reunion with whom was a necessary prerequisite for further ascension.

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

I think to Arkat, deception is Nysalors original sin, more than Chaos even, and unforgivable when dealing with the most sacred matters. 

I think that to Arkat, deception is Gbaji's original sin. While it may be Chaos or at least Wakboth's brand of Moral Evil, I regard Gbaji as the evil entanglement keeping Nysalor and his Shawo Self apart. After having overcome that barrier, Arkat spent much of his remaining time among the mortals in contemplation to finally find union with his Other, and then to ascend, leaving behind a bodhisatva-like presence for his disciples which is what the God Learners sealed away or shattered.

The fivefold Arkat separation is the result of this, with the thing separating the five probably needing to be overcome in brutal conflict, too. A purging of self, not unlike the draconic path taken by Ingolf.

[AndreasDavour]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Niebie's prophets spreading a disease only they could cure by enlightening the victims may be seen as a form of austerities meant to lead to illumination. The perpretators may not even have perceived this method as evil but as benevolent, to spread a spark of illumination to as many recipients as possible. The Niebie disease may have been a Riddle.

Is "Niebie" a personal nickname, or is it a name from the deep lore only the inner circle have been allowed to use before, or why not "Nysalor"?

[mfbrandi]

18 hours ago, davecake said:

And Argrath … every 600 years there is a threat to the world, and now it is his turn.

Well, he may have set out to destroy the world, but accidentally, he saved it. We have to believe it was an accident, because he grates on us so.

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, AndreasDavour said:

Is "Niebie" a personal nickname, or is it a name from the deep lore only the inner circle have been allowed to use before, or why not "Nysalor"?

The name comes from the publically accessible source 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/the-kings-of-seshnela-part-one/

which contains more historical detail than the summaries in the Guide.

By referring to Niebie, it is made clear that this shows the Seshnegi and Brithini perspective on the fringes of the Bright Empire. Nysalor never made a personal appearance on this fringe of his influence.

[AndreasDavour]

Thanks Joerg! There are so much to read, and not all very accessible. Pointer and link much appreciated.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:18 AM, EricW said:

Arkat was famous for his shifting cult allegiances and his ruthlessness in pursuing his single minded goal of destroying Gbaji. Were there any limits on his willingness to use whatever tools were available to advance towards his goal? 

How dare you cast suspicions on our beloved Arkat! Isn't he the incarnation of the great Argarth?

Wasn't compassionate? Loving all men, roasted or scraped raw? Carefully choosing those he sent to the rack, or the slow embrace of the Bronze Friend? How could such a man be called cruel?

Wasn't he fair, killing only those who hesitated to surrender longer than an hour, leaving their children younger than 10 alive in the city after all others had perished? How could such a man be called unjust?

Wasn't he true? Didn't he cleave to his purpose when the good all around begged him for some understanding of the people he injured? Wasn't he single minded in his destruction of all that was in his way? How can such a man be called extreme and inhuman?

[EricW]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Wasn't he fair, killing only those who hesitated to surrender longer than an hour, leaving their children younger than 10 alive in the city after all others had perished? How could such a man be called unjust?

I doubt Arkat spared the kids in places where “entire cities sprouted chaos features”.

The morality of his actions is something you can debate indefinitely. I’m watching “The last of us”. One of the episodes a doctor in North Korea (?) diagnoses what has happened, realises there is an unstoppable infection which threatens the entire world loose in her city. When asked “what should we do?” she answers “Bomb. Kill them all. Spare no one”.

I immediately thought of Arkat / Argrath.

Or someone I know, who had to do unspeakable things to survive an impossible situation. He lived, the enemy died - but he bears the mental scars, every day for him is a struggle. I suspect he revisits hell on Earth every night.

I hope I never have to face choices like that.

[davecake]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Joerg said:

may be seen as a form of austerities meant to lead to illumination.

I do not think austerities lead to Illumination in a general sense, and definitely not when they are neither a real austerity (if they were, curing the disease would make it worthless or worse) or known to those suffering. 

 

On 2/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Joerg said:

A logical choice then would have been Storm Bull rather than Humakt,

Trolls, collectively, have access to better Chaos fighting powers than Storm Bull alone, and are far less of a blunt instrument when fighting sophisticated intelligent Chaos foes - not just ZZ, but Counter Chaos from KL (perhaps the valuable spell there is when fighting powerful Chaos foes), plus assorted things like Boztakangs Stones to Kill Chaos. And hey, Storm Bull is associated to ZZ, so you still call on him somewhat. And of course Darkness powers are handy against a Light god and allies. I think Arkat knew what he was doing. 

 

On 2/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Joerg said:

 

On 2/24/2023 at 12:15 PM, davecake said:

But he turns away from them, and afterwards is said to without perfidy.

He does not betray them

I did not say he betrayed them, but he turned away. He honored his agreements with the trolls, continued to honor and respect them. But he was no longer a troll, did not seem to spend time leading the trolls but remaining on his farm. The path of Darkness was not his path once he no longer needed it. 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I do not think austerities lead to Illumination in a general sense, and definitely not when they are neither a real austerity (if they were, curing the disease would make it worthless or worse) or known to those suffering. 

Sheng did reach his near-enlightenment through a century of torture austerities. And this was a different Age of History, with different magical rules (such as allowing the Telmori a no-cost shape-shifting gift).

That Gaalth character (the chief missionary "reaching out" to Seshnela was no doubt a psychopath, but may have been a Logician believing in efficiency. Carrot and stick...

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

Trolls, collectively, have access to better Chaos fighting powers than Storm Bull alone,

Yes. And maybe Humakt was the ally of choice against the undead immortality of the Vampire Kings of Tanisor, but against general Chaos, he is as bad a choice as is Orlanth (other than gaining the allegiance of many Orlanthi cannon fodder).

 

Allying trolls was a necessary step to get cannon fodder for the invasion of Dorastor after the Orlanthi decided to go against the Dara Happan Empire instead.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

and are far less of a blunt instrument when fighting sophisticated intelligent Chaos foes - not just ZZ, but Counter Chaos from KL (perhaps the valuable spell there is when fighting powerful Chaos foes), plus assorted things like Boztakangs Stones to Kill Chaos. And hey, Storm Bull is associated to ZZ, so you still call on him somewhat. And of course Darkness powers are handy against a Light god and allies. I think Arkat knew what he was doing. 

ZZ (Arkat's cult of choice) was pre-destined (as Arkat received the Unhealable Wound from himself questing as ZZ), but calling trolls a "less blunt instrument" is rather funny. I wonder whether Arkat fielded spearkin, or whether the multiple births were too recent (or possibly not even yet invented while Gbaji was still around).

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I did not say he betrayed them, but he turned away. He honored his agreements with the trolls, continued to honor and respect them. But he was no longer a troll, did not seem to spend time leading the trolls but remaining on his farm. The path of Darkness was not his path once he no longer needed it. 

If he had the complete set of Kitori shapes, he could have hidden in shadow in his Dehori shape and join the trolls in Guhan (making that illumination in Nick's History of Malkionism real). 

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sheng did reach his near-enlightenment through a century of torture austerities.

That is the trouble with “illumination” being required to cover a lot of ground. The extreme ascetic practicing austerities in search of “yogic superpowers” — more Kraft than Macht? — doesn’t necessarily have a lot in common with the person spontaneously achieving insight through accidental exposure to riddles/koans, no?

“I have undergone unimaginable torture; now I am a terrifying living weapon” — boring.

“So that is the difference between a Durulz; now maybe I can start to purge hatred and fear from my life” — shows promise.

[John Biles]

11 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

That is the trouble with “illumination” being required to cover a lot of ground. The extreme ascetic practicing austerities in search of “yogic superpowers” — more Kraft than Macht? — doesn’t necessarily have a lot in common with the person spontaneously achieving insight through accidental exposure to riddles/koans, no?

“I have undergone unimaginable torture; now I am a terrifying living weapon” — boring.

Real world mysticism covers that same huge stretch, but we would benefit from having several different flavors of illumination.

11 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

“So that is the difference between a Durulz; now maybe I can start to purge hatred and fear from my life” — shows promise.

The difference between a Durulz and what?

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, John Biles said:

The difference between a Durulz and what?

Quote

Q: What is the difference between a duck?
A: One of its legs are both the same.

In the UK, that is the hoariest, most groanworthy of jokes. Or if you like, it is part of the venerable British corpus of Nysalor riddles. Don’t listen to people who claim that cricket or association soccerball is our national sport: everybody knows it is talking nonsense that we hold most dear.

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, John Biles said:

Real world mysticism covers that same huge stretch, but we would benefit from having several different flavors of illumination.

Well, one might distinguish between means and ends or pay-offs. Meditation or self-mortification are examples of means. Experiencing union with god, the infinite, or the void — “union with god” for short — is one kind of pay-off. Gaining the ability to walk through fire or to strike an elephant dead with one finger is another kind of pay-off (and possibly valued only as means to further ends).

I read a book about Sufism a long time ago — title and author now forgotten — which said that the mystic pursues union with god in this world because they wouldn’t bet on there being another one. (Necessarily, I paraphrase. Helplessly, I ironise.) Combined with an experiential definition of union with god, this allowed for a mystical faith without ontological commitment. In game terms, this sits nicely with Nysalor being a dead god and mysticism not being an otherworld magic.

So by all means call those who seek or experience union with god “mystics”, and perhaps the experience of illumination comes in significantly different flavours — I am not the theology police: I am not qualified. And sure, there will be those who seek mystical experience as a means to an end (misguidedly or not, depending on the game world), but then there will be those who join the cult of Humakt because they want to learn Sever Spirit.

But just as the route to union with god needn’t take us through austerities (e.g. we were instead spontaneously illuminated by answering a riddle asked by a passing stranger), isn’t it the case that austerities (e.g. some forms of meditation, perhaps; self-mortification, certainly) need not lead to union with god (i.e. the mystical experience) but in a fantasy game, that is not to say they won’t lead to “yogic superpowers”. So if my practice of austerities: [a] is aimed at achieving superpowers; [b] is not supposed by me to lead to union with god; [c] does not in fact lead to union with god, am I a mystic? I might be a superpowered pain-in-the-arse nonetheless.

If I start aimed squarely at god, but I turn away in pursuit of superpowers, am I a failed mystic? Is a failed mystic a mystic? Is a forged banknote a banknote?

[Eff]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:20 AM, mfbrandi said:

That is the trouble with “illumination” being required to cover a lot of ground. The extreme ascetic practicing austerities in search of “yogic superpowers” — more Kraft than Macht? — doesn’t necessarily have a lot in common with the person spontaneously achieving insight through accidental exposure to riddles/koans, no?

“I have undergone unimaginable torture; now I am a terrifying living weapon” — boring.

“So that is the difference between a Durulz; now maybe I can start to purge hatred and fear from my life” — shows promise.

In the real world practice of Zen, "austerities" like sitting zazen or monastic life generally are an important component. In fact, typically the process of achieving "enlightening moments" of kensho as recorded in koans only comes after a prolonged period of preparation through austerity and study of sutras and so on. 

Gloranthan mysticism is much more occult-tinged, in large part because Greg Stafford both was in that crowd and also was getting his cultural knowledge of Buddhism from a very mid-20th-century Californian filter. But it's fairly easy to understand its mysticism in the terminology of mystic traditions in Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism... without even dipping into the Thelema or Theosophy wells.