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Did Arkat Ever Use Chaotic Magic?


EricW

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14 hours ago, Darius West said:

Then we find out that Nysalor has a Chaos Rune.  Just because he can hide his chaos taint

Just because self-appointed chaos hunters cannot detect it, one shouldn’t conclude that it is hidden. Maybe their ability to detect chaos isn’t all it is cracked up to be.

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2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Just because self-appointed chaos hunters cannot detect it, one shouldn’t conclude that it is hidden. Maybe their ability to detect chaos isn’t all it is cracked up to be.

That means that anything could be Chaotic, and that way leads to madness.

Surely, Storm Bull cultists can be trusted? If not, who can you trust?

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Several thoughts:
1. There are those who say in the end Arkat became a monster to destroy Gbaji. Some say that means he became a Mistress Race Troll who joined the cult of Zorak Zoran (which is generally known to be true), others claim that means he became a Chaos monster (which is generally claimed to be false). What is certain is that Arkat emerged from Dorastor and established a peaceful empire in Ralios.

2. The Orlanthi trust the Storm Bull cultists as the experts on sniffing out Chaos. That being said, something obviously Chaotic is treated as Chaotic. Even if the Storm Bulls are confused that it doesn't seem Chaotic. Everyone knows that Gbaji is the deceiver, after all.

3. The human Arkat cult has ways of sniffing out Illuminates, and unless those Illuminates are Arkati, the Arkati usually try to kill them if possible.

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1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:
1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The human Arkat cult has ways of sniffing out Illuminates, and unless those Illuminates are Arkati, the Arkati usually try to kill them if possible.

How does this work out?  Sounds like it often involves "secret murder", which is chaotic.  Interesting ...

Only Orlanthi believe that. Other cultures are far more accepting.

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www.soltakss.com/index.html

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1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What would you guess - 90% of all RQ PCs are Storm Tribey?

Presumably, it is thought that there is not really a lot of choice. More interesting to know how many are gung-ho, party-line Orlanthi and how many are dissident Orlanthi or Orlanthi with doubts/consciences, no?

And then there is the question of ironic distance between player and character: playing a rocks-for-brains Storm Bully to send up the “must … KILL … chaos!” attitude.

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

2. The Orlanthi trust the Storm Bull cultists as the experts on sniffing out Chaos. That being said, something obviously Chaotic is treated as Chaotic. Even if the Storm Bulls are confused that it doesn't seem Chaotic. Everyone knows that Gbaji is the deceiver, after all.

3. The human Arkat cult has ways of sniffing out Illuminates, and unless those Illuminates are Arkati, the Arkati usually try to kill them if possible.

“Look, I was right about that baby-eating broo with three heads that dribbled a trail of radioactive slime, wasn’t I? So you must trust me when you catch me decapitating harmless old people just trying to grow a few turnips — I’m only doing it to save the world. Evidence? Schmevidence!”

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1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How does this work out?  Sounds like it often involves "secret murder", which is chaotic.  Interesting ...

Of course, it would be almost disappointing if Arkat cultists weren't engaged in some ends-justifying-the-means behavior around Chaos, wouldn't it? After all, somebody needs to be the Gbaji for any given petty squabble, and you can't rely entirely on random Lunar encounters or "wild" Nysalor illuminates... 

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7 minutes ago, Eff said:

you can't rely entirely on random Lunar encounters or "wild" Nysalor illuminates

“All the world is queer chaotic save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer chaotic.” — Report of the Arkati Conference on Illumination and Chaos (1617)

I wonder whether it is a matter of ends (supposedly) justifying means or just the utter paranoia brought about by the belief in their own lethality and corruption: “If we’re this awful and we are the good guys, what must everybody else be like?” What if — with the best of intentions — one tells illuminates that they have a dangerous superpower and that turns them into homicidal conspiracy theorists? With great power comes great responsibility membership of a death squad.

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40 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

“Look, I was right about that baby-eating broo with three heads that dribbled a trail of radioactive slime, wasn’t I? So you must trust me when you catch me decapitating harmless old people just trying to grow a few turnips — I’m only doing it to save the world. Evidence? Schmevidence!”

It is perhaps worth pointing out that the Arkat cult largely has to exist as a secret society in most human societies. Arkat is acknowledged by the Orlanth as the King of Battles (among other things), and as the most powerful hero of all time. But he betrayed humanity to the trolls, embraced Zorak Zoran, and so on. 

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5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is perhaps worth pointing out that the Arkat cult largely has to exist as a secret society in most human societies.

And presumably even if they weren’t persecuted, the Arkati would be temperamentally unsuited to operating in the open, anyway.

And, yes, I was running together the two cases of brazen Storm Bulls (still standing over granny at the allotment when the rest of the community turns up) and furtive Arkati (long gone). What they have in common is a claim to special knowledge about bad stuff the rest of us cannot see.

Should we trust either of them? Even if we should, would we be able to? If I strike you down preemptively because my Spidey sense is tingling, I had better be able to turn up some proof after the fact or I am just some lunatic who has murdered the beloved custodian of Glorantha, no?

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2 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

And presumably even if they weren’t persecuted, the Arkati would be temperamentally unsuited to operating in the open, anyway.

And, yes, I was running together the two cases of brazen Storm Bulls (still standing over granny at the allotment when the rest of the community turns up) and furtive Arkati (long gone). What they have in common is a claim to special knowledge about bad stuff the rest of us cannot see.

Should we trust either of them? Even if we should, would we be able to? If I strike you down preemptively because my Spidey sense is tingling, I had better be able to turn up some proof after the fact or I am just some lunatic who has murdered the beloved custodian of Glorantha, no?

In general the Orlanthi give the Storm Bulls great leeway because they have proven their capacity regarding fighting Chaos both mythologically and historically. (Zorak Zoran gets similar leeway in troll society.) The Orlanthi all acknowledge that Arkat was powerful and that he destroyed Gbaji. But unlike Storm Bull, he is treacherous. Arkat betrayed the Orlanthi to the trolls. When victorious over Gbaji, he turned over rule of Dragon Pass not to the Heortling kings but to the trolls. 

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Also remember that after the Gbaji Wars, Arkat gave rule of Dragon Pass and Peloria to his friends - the trolls. He then settled in Fornoar, at the time part of Ralios. There he remained, surrounded by his companions, his wives, and his beloved children - the trolls. He gave nearby Guhan to his First Hundred as a stronghold. Arkat was no longer trollish, but he was feared and his shadow darkened the lands. For seventy-five years he remained in Ralios, and a curious empire formed around him. He taught those that came to sit around him, and enforced a strict moral code for his followers. As the trolls say, once Arkat became a troll there was no perfidy or betrayal in him. His true self brought the balance of living peace.

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3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In general the Orlanthi give the Storm Bulls great leeway because they have proven their capacity regarding fighting Chaos both mythologically and historically.

Sure, that is why I phrased my original comment the way I did: my death squad killed w, x, and y — they were all terrible people, and you were all glad to see the last of them — but now they have killed z, and none of you can see what was wrong with z; everybody loved z and their turnips. So either you are all too trusting and my death squad can get away with unjustified killings so long as we bring in enough broo scalps, or we are going to have to come up with something a bit better than “z just smelled wrong”, no?

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5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In general the Orlanthi give the Storm Bulls great leeway because they have proven their capacity regarding fighting Chaos both mythologically and historically. (Zorak Zoran gets similar leeway in troll society.) The Orlanthi all acknowledge that Arkat was powerful and that he destroyed Gbaji. But unlike Storm Bull, he is treacherous. Arkat betrayed the Orlanthi to the trolls. When victorious over Gbaji, he turned over rule of Dragon Pass not to the Heortling kings but to the trolls. 

This distinction plays out on the everyday gamer level as well. Bulls are violent, disorderly and dangerous even in the absence of overt chaos. Their experience and emotional situation translates into a form of perpetual PTSD ("eternal battle") that can drive them to lash out at innocents. It also grants them paranormal sensitivity and a special legal role in communities that have learned to support them. One way communities learn to support the bull is through the CA complex. You can even think of Storm Bull as a kind of auxiliary to the White Lady in more sophisticated lightbringer contexts.

Arkat and those who emulate him are bound by no known social constraints. This might not necessarily make them "chaotic" but if anything you'd rather have a bull around because you know how that story plays out. Arkat by definition disrupts the magicosocial fabric and leaves nothing new in its place.

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IMO the Arkati do battles via HeroQuests.  The Arkati of one city gather together and perform a heroquest which strengthens their magical defences and sends magical calamities (e.g. the ten plagues of Egypt) upon their enemies (the Arkati of the neighbouring cities).  They also carry out magical assassinations but it costs resources that could be used against the city next door (to wit; curse the evil Archon with worms or make his city's crops fail?) and they have to know the target's name to have any great chance of success.  

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2 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Sure, that is why I phrased my original comment the way I did: my death squad killed w, x, and y — they were all terrible people, and you were all glad to see the last of them — but now they have killed z, and none of you can see what was wrong with z; everybody loved z and their turnips. So either you are all too trusting and my death squad can get away with unjustified killings so long as we bring in enough broo scalps, or we are going to have to come up with something a bit better than “z just smelled wrong”, no?

And now give those "death squads" over a dozen centuries of having a socio-religious role where they have repeatedly proven their value over and over again. The Storm Bull cultists are mad and dangerous, but they are holy when it comes to fighting Chaos. As Scott points out they are basically a mirror-image of Chalana Arroy in Orlanthi society. Besides, the Storm Bull cultists are murderous without needing the justification of fighting Chaos - if they want to do an unjustified killing, they are known to just do it. Everyone knows the Storm Bull cultists are dangerous, mad, and violent - they are tolerated because they fight Chaos without compromise.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

It is perhaps worth pointing out that the Arkat cult largely has to exist as a secret society in most human societies

I agree that this is reasonable and probably how it should be.  This is definitely not the impression I get from the scenarios: e.g. Duel at Dangerford features an Arkati being, and all the "woo-woo" weird stuff that Argrath is doing.  Argrath uses "Arkati insights", and his magic "uses an eldritch blend of Arkati secrets..."  It's obvious to the Earthly players (maybe not their Gloranthan PCs) that Argrath and many of his magical teams are highly Illuminated.

Argrath's companion Mularik is "deeply initiated into the mysteries of Arkat".  Sir Ethilrist isn't exactly hiding.

Edited by Rodney Dangerduck
clarification
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4 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Their experience and emotional situation translates into a form of perpetual PTSD ("eternal battle") that can drive them to lash out at innocents … One way communities learn to support the bull is through the CA complex. You can even think of Storm Bull as a kind of auxiliary to the White Lady in more sophisticated lightbringer contexts.

“Hello, my name is Chalana. I am a pacifist and enabler of dangerous sociopaths.” So I am too pure to hit you, but my pet thug will give you a good going over — is that what we mean by “sophisticated” here?

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Arkat and those who emulate him are bound by no known social constraints.

And, yet, despite their being secretive, devious, deluded, and mad as a box of frogs, this somehow seems … more honest? They have only their own cracked reasoning to rely on, but at least they are not leaning on society told me it was OK to do it. Does this make them more dangerous? I don’t know. After all, sophisticated, civilized societies can give the nod to dreadful acts of brutality, it is not the prerogative of the loonies who love cell structures and the dark spaces underground.

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5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that this is reasonable and probably how it should be.  This is definitely not the impression I get from the scenarios: e.g. Duel at Dangerford features an Arkati being, and all the "woo-woo" weird stuff that Argrath is doing.  Argrath uses "Arkati insights", and his magic "uses an eldritch blend of Arkati secrets..."  It's obvious to the Earthly players (maybe not their Gloranthan PCs) that Argrath and many of his magical teams are highly Illuminated.

Argrath's companion Mularik is "deeply initiated into the mysteries of Arkat".  Sir Ethilrist isn't exactly hiding.

Argrath is Arkat. I mean that literally. Greg had a character named Argrat in his old stories, who fought a great war against Gbaji that shook Glorantha to its foundations and changed the world. That character became Argrath in White Bear and Red Moon. A few years later, he recycled an edited version of the Argrat stories for Cults of Terror, where he became Arkat. Argrath is not a member of the Arkat cult - he is the same hero.

Mularik is not an Orlanthi. He's a Stygian heretic from a long line of Arkat cultists and a Wolf Pirate. He becomes Argrath's teacher on the three-year circumnavigation of the Homeward Ocean and one of his early boon companions. He knows his stuff. 

Ethilrist is not Arkati.

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7 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is definitely not the impression I get from the scenarios: e.g. Duel at Dangerford features an Arkati being, and all the "woo-woo" weird stuff that Argrath is doing.

But Duel at Dangerford is a JC product and so non-canon. So, unfortunately, this doesn’t give us any purchase. But, you know, if we all chant hard enough and gobble all those mushrooms, maybe we can levitate the Pentagon and reveal what is underneath.

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17 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

And, yet, despite their being secretive, devious, deluded, and mad as a box of frogs, this somehow seems … more honest? They have only their own cracked reasoning to rely on, but at least they are not leaning on society told me it was OK to do it. Does this make them more dangerous? I don’t know. After all, sophisticated, civilized societies can give the nod to dreadful acts of brutality, it is not the prerogative of the loonies who love cell structures and the dark spaces underground.

There is a strong post-kierkegaardian strain here + a few other places that I find personally wicked delightful but tends to run aground on the game as it tends to be played. Drop most of us in a 14th century protosartarite stead Outlander style (apologies to the sassenachs) and they'll classify us all as "arkat" individualists, somewhere between devious, evil and insane. They, on the other hand, have their organic connection to their perennial wisdom and so on. That's how we know they're "Gloranthans." 

We might take refuge in their trickster complex if we get any time to prepare, speaking of sophisticated lightbringer contexts. I think any Orlanth community sophisticated enough to develop a strong sense of CA and the other professional lightbringers will really only interact with the Bull through CA intercession . . . she houses the berserks safely away from the china shop and lets them out in times of trouble, only to welcome them back when the trouble has been stepped on. Bad bulls get tricked into leaving town altogether, going out to make trouble for the real hillbillies.

Of course this is MGF for the CA player who wants to keep her hands clean and still maintain a big stick to threaten people with.

Edited by scott-martin
big stick, hillbillies
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8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Ethilrist is not Arkati.

But some Gloranthans think he might be, right?

Quote

Some think there are deeper secrets known only to the inner circles of the cult. That Ethilrist worships the Eternal Hero, or even the Anti-Hero or the Hero’s Shadow. Others claim he is a secret Arkat and that his cult is an Arkati fraud. — WoD

So a little confusion is forgivable, no?

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