Did Arkat Ever Use Chaotic Magic?

[EricW]

Arkat was famous for his shifting cult allegiances and his ruthlessness in pursuing his single minded goal of destroying Gbaji. Were there any limits on his willingness to use whatever tools were available to advance towards his goal? 

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, EricW said:

Arkat was famous for his shifting cult allegiances and his ruthlessness in pursuing his single minded goal of destroying Gbaji. Were there any limits on his willingness to use whatever tools were available to advance towards his goal? 

There is a branch of Arkati who believe the answer is Yes.  

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, EricW said:

Were there any limits on his willingness to use whatever tools were available to advance towards his goal? 

Any tool in the fight against Chaos.

Also, using Chaos to kill Chaios reduces the amount of Chaos in the world.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arkat used Chaos in the final battles.

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, EricW said:

Arkat was famous for his shifting cult allegiances and his ruthlessness in pursuing his single minded goal of destroying Gbaji. Were there any limits on his willingness to use whatever tools were available to advance towards his goal? 

I seem to recall reading about Arkat essentially turning into a chaos monster while fighting in Dorastor.  In typical fashion, Arkat likely betrayed the Trolls to gain new allies among the chaos folk to complete his quest to destroy Nysalor.  I would put this down to Arkat having joined a cult like Krjalk which I believe allows monstrous transformation.  The point is, it would be a temporary effect a bit like the Lunar Chaos Gift spell.  Akrat would have carried a chaos taint were it not for his illumination.  We know that after the duel in the Tower of Wonders, Arkat departs for Ralios as a normal looking man, you see.

[davecake]

On 2/11/2023 at 12:10 PM, Darius West said:

We know that after the duel in the Tower of Wonders, Arkat departs for Ralios as a normal looking man, you see.

Personally, I put Arkats shapechanging down to him being a kaelith, someone who has returned after dying and descending to the Underworld. One of the few canonical examples, along with Talor, Jonat and Harmast. A common power possessed by them is changing form (according to the Xeotam dialogues, anyway). 

I'm sure there are people who believe Arkat to have returned as Gbaji, but I'm also sure it's not (and probably will never be) unequivocally stated in a canon source. You can believe what you want. 

[mfbrandi]

On 2/11/2023 at 4:10 AM, Darius West said:

We know that after the duel in the Tower of Wonders, Arkat departs for Ralios as a normal looking man

It is funny, I never read:

Quote

When he finally fought hand to hand against Gbaji, he was no longer even human but a troll, a Dark Man. After the battle, Arkat was no longer a troll, or so said his friends and many trolls. — WoD

… as being about Arkat’s physical shape. I certainly took it that two trolls might look at Arkat after the battle and have three opinions about whether he was still a troll — “you know, really still a troll”. (See also: “yes, but where are you really from?”)

Eric had two questions:

On 2/10/2023 at 10:18 AM, EricW said:

[1] Were there any limits on his willingness to use whatever tools were available to advance towards his goal?
[2] Did Arkat Ever Use Chaotic Magic?

Surely, the answer to [1] is “no, there were no limits”, but it hardly follows that the tool he needed to put his hand to at any time was “chaotic magic”.

But what is chaotic magic, anyway? Is the insight that there really is no difference between Chaos and non-Chaos itself chaotic magic? His illumination pre-dated his anti-Nysalor fanaticism rather than being a tool sought to aid the fight, right? Perhaps the illumination even caused the fanaticism. I imagine his illumination was incomplete (or at any rate unsatisfactory) and that the fight against Nysalor was his inner struggle to eliminate the bright side of his illumination — leaving only the Stygian purity of black light — splurged bloodily across everyone else’s reality. The turn to ZZ wasn’t a pragmatic resort, it was just who he was — with Nysalor as his Yelmalio.

Where are all the quiet Gloranthan illuminates? Carrying out a secret Bene Gesseritesque breeding program to produce the enlo Kwisatz Haderach, one suspects. (You have to watch the quiet ones, too: for every “there really is no difference between Uz and human”, there is a “there really is no difference between Galton and sanity.”)

[EricW]

53 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

But what is chaotic magic, anyway? Is the insight that there really is no difference between Chaos and non-Chaos itself chaotic magic? His illumination pre-dated his anti-Nysalor fanaticism rather than being a tool sought to aid the fight, right? Perhaps the illumination even caused the fanaticism. I imagine his illumination was incomplete (or at any rate unsatisfactory) and that the fight against Nysalor was his inner struggle to eliminate the bright side of his illumination — leaving only the Stygian purity of black light — splurged bloodily across everyone else’s reality. The turn to ZZ wasn’t a pragmatic resort, it was just who he was — with Nysalor as his Yelmalio.

Sourcerous tap is considered chaotic, Krjalk magic to gain chaotic abilities, consume knowledge and other chaotic knowledge magics, to learn new skills?

 

59 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Where are all the quiet Gloranthan illuminates? Carrying out a secret Bene Gesseritesque breeding program to produce the enlo Kwisatz Haderach, one suspects. (You have to watch the quiet ones, too: for every “there really is no difference between Uz and human”, there is a “there really is no difference between Galton and sanity.”)

Busy putting together fragments of old gods... oops 🙂

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Sourcerous tap is considered chaotic

The curse on Dorastor does look a lot like tapping, really. Sucking out all fertility.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

Personally, I put Arkats shapechanging down to him being a kaelith, someone who has returned after dying and descending to the Underworld. One of the few canonical examples, along with Talor, Jonat and Harmast. A common power possessed by them is changing form (according to the Xeotam dialogues, anyway). 

Does that imply that any fully initiated Kitori Shadowlord is a Kaelith?

 

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, EricW said:

Sourcerous tap is considered chaotic

Some people might consider it chaotic but Tapping is wholly lawful. 

[svensson]

As I understand it, the answer in canon is that there is no proof as to whether or not Arkat did stoop to using Chaotic magic.

There is general agreement that if the right circumstances presented themselves or if there was a pressing tactical need, Arkat would most likely [but not definitely] use any tool he could get his hands on. Everything else was grist for the mill in his quest to defeat Gbadji [he even became a troll!] so most scholars of the First Age don't think he'd many compunctions about using Chaos.

Note: Arkat underwent the full Uz Adoption Rite. That means that he was ritually vivisected while still living until he died and was reborn in Darkness. The process adds various Trollish features to a human's body and adds the Darkness Rune to their spirit. A person who undergoes this rite would appear to be a deformed and ugly human with troll fangs protruding from their mouth and the ability to eat anything... however they're never satiated, they will ALWAYS be hungry. Arkat wasn't just initiated into a cult of the Uz, like joining Argan Argar or Zorak Zoran. Arkat literally changed races and BECAME a troll. And not just 'a troll', he became a Mistress Race Ancestral Troll.

Insofar as I know, other than becoming a broo via the Blessing of Thed there is no other way to voluntarily change your species in RQ.

Edited February 14, 2023 by svensson

[Rodney Dangerduck]

According to Cults of Terror, p90, The Arkat Cult has a "strict moral code clearly within the bounds of acceptable non-chaotic behavior".  One might assume that this precludes the use of chaotic magic.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

There is general agreement that if the right circumstances presented themselves or if there was a pressing tactical need, Arkat would most likely [but not definitely] use any tool he could get his hands on. Everything else was grist for the mill in his quest to defeat Gbadji [he even became a troll!] so most scholars of the First Age don't think he'd many compunctions about using Chaos.

Likely the closest we'll have are the statements from Cults of Terror, p.19: "Finally, atop the Tower of Dreams, amid the City of Miracles, the two opponents met in single combat as all existence seemed to shatter around them. The city was turned to dust and poison, killing many of the greatest still surviving. From the ruins only Arkat emerged.... After the battle Arkat was no longer a troll, or so said his friends, and so did many trolls."

Did Arkat become Nysalor, and Nysalor Arkat, as they fought amidst the Void? Quite possibly, and if so, then yes Arkat wore the Face of Chaos to defeat his foe. He was a troll going in, but seems to have had to shed that (or lost that) in the battle. Perhaps in the end, Arkat only had or was left with himself?

[Joerg]

There was more than only Arkat left after that encounter - there were (supposedly) 49 pieces of Nysalor/Gbaji which then got hidden away. According to a rumor the Lunars managed to collect a bit about fifty and were positive their reconstituted Nysalor contained no traces of Gbaji.

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does that imply that any fully initiated Kitori Shadowlord is a Kaelith?

If by 'fully initiated' you mean has died and then returned from the Underworld, yes. But I don't think that is normal initiation, but a heroquest (albeit one that is easier for a Kitori Shadowlord than others, as you don't have to fight your way out). But it still requires death and the destruction of the body, then returning from the Underworld with the expenditure of enough magical energy to create the body anew - I think its not just the visiting the underworld, but breaking the connection with the body, and recreating it, and in the process transcending formal mortality somewhat. Remembering most of the 'canonical' kaelith returned via a Lightbringers Quest. 

So, not every underworld quest makes you a kaelith, IMO, nor are the kaelith powers gained by everyone who qualifies. While the Xeotam dialogues seem to be regarded as an important (and canonical) source, that doesn't mean that everything within them is fully accurate, and we have no particular evidence of shapeshifting or disincorporation by Arkat, Harmast, or Talor. I think that shape changing is only between spells that they somehow have learned or earned a right to, so Arkat can't turn into a troll before he undergoes rebirth. Hsunchen would have more than one natural shape though. And Arkat does seem to have the power to have more than one body when he kills Kwaratch Kwang. 

[davecake]

20 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Where are all the quiet Gloranthan illuminates?

"Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water".

They are just chopping wood, and carrying water, and so on. 

[Darius West]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:12 PM, mfbrandi said:

 His illumination pre-dated his anti-Nysalor fanaticism rather than being a tool sought to aid the fight, right? Perhaps the illumination even caused the fanaticism. I imagine his illumination was incomplete (or at any rate unsatisfactory) and that the fight against Nysalor was his inner struggle to eliminate the bright side of his illumination — leaving only the Stygian purity of black light — splurged bloodily across everyone else’s reality. The turn to ZZ wasn’t a pragmatic resort, it was just who he was — with Nysalor as his Yelmalio.

I think that Nysalor as a "created god" developed an energy debt that had to be paid, and that every light creates a shadow.  Arkat was Nysalor's destined nemesis, and if you look at how Arkat behaves, he is also the personification of the perfect argument against what Nysalor taught; an argument against Nysalor's concept of illumination so powerful and conclusive that even Nysalor has to admit that his philosophy is flawed and too open to abuse, and as such his entire incarnation has been wasted.  In a sense Arkat's life refutes Nysalor's philosophy, using what we know of Gloranthan mysticism.  Needless to say, that Nysalor as a deity (with a chaos rune) created after time was dangerous to the Compromise. 

It is also important to note that Arkat invents or discovers Hero Questing in this time, which is something that nobody foresaw.  In many ways, Hero Questing is more important, long term, to the history of Glorantha than illumination.  I think this is what makes Arkat more than Nysalor's mere nemesis, and turns him into the "main character" and the greater mystic of the two, despite his penchant for abandoning spent allies...

"The sage is impartial.  He treats people as straw dogs." - Lao Tze

(the straw dogs are venerated for a day and then cast aside as waste btw).

Edited February 16, 2023 by Darius West

[svensson]

13 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

According to Cults of Terror, p90, The Arkat Cult has a "strict moral code clearly within the bounds of acceptable non-chaotic behavior".  One might assume that this precludes the use of chaotic magic.

That's the cult, not the man.

I'm pretty sure that every single Christian denomination does something The Christ would find objectionable. Humans are fallible. Prophets get misheard, apostles misunderstand the lesson, scripture gets mistranslated. And all of that sometimes happens on purpose.

Now I grant you that Gloranthan gods have far more direct contact with their worshipers than here on Terra, but published sources show that worshipers get stuff about Orlanth and Ernalda wrong all the time.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Needless to say, that Nysalor as a deity created after time was dangerous to the Compromise.

Although Nysalor-as-Rashoran might say that a bunch of other gods got killed in Godtime and came back at the Dawn — he was just a little late to the resurrection party, so exceptional means were necessary.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

That's the cult, not the man. I'm pretty sure that every single Christian denomination does something The Christ would find objectionable.

Although in this case it is Hey Zeus Herbert who may be misbehaving and his followers who would find that objectionable. We do sometimes tell tales of old JC getting up to no good, as in the folk song/carol The Bitter Withy.

Spoiler

The Bitter Withy (Peter Bellamy version)

As it fell out upon a bright holiday
Small hail from the sky did fall;
Our Saviour asked his mother dear
If he might play at ball.

“At ball? At ball? My own dear son?
It's time that you was gone,
But don't let me hear of any doings
Tonight when you return.”

So it's up the hill, and down the hill
Our sweet young Saviour ran,
Until he met three rich young lords
All playing in the sun.

“Good morn, good morn, good morn”, cried they,
“Good morning,” oh says he,
“And which one of you three rich young lords
Will play at ball with me?”

“Well, we're all lords' and ladies' sons,
All born in a bower and hall,
And you are nothing but a Jewish child
Born in an oxen stall”

“Well, though you're lords' and ladies' sons
All born in your bower and hall
I'll prove to you at your latter end
I'm an angel above you all”

So he built him a bridge from the beams of the sun
And over the river danced he;
Them rich young lords followed after him
And drowned they was all three.

So it's up the hill and down the hill
Three rich young mothers run
Crying “Mary mild, fetch you home your child
For ours he's drowned each one.”

So Mary mild fetched home her child,
She laid him across her knee
And with a bundle of withy twigs
She gave him thrashes three.

“Oh bitter withy. oh bitter withy
That causes me to smart.
Oh the withy shall be very first tree
To perish at the heart.”

Edited February 15, 2023 by mfbrandi
whitespace

[svensson]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Although in this case it is Hey Zeus Herbert who may be misbehaving and his followers who would find that objectionable. We do sometimes tell tales of old JC getting up to no good, as in the folk song/carol The Bitter Withy.

  Reveal hidden contents

The Bitter Withy (Peter Bellamy version)

As it fell out upon a bright holiday
Small hail from the sky did fall;
Our Saviour asked his mother dear
If he might play at ball.

“At ball? At ball? My own dear son?
It's time that you was gone,
But don't let me hear of any doings
Tonight when you return.”

So it's up the hill, and down the hill
Our sweet young Saviour ran,
Until he met three rich young lords
All playing in the sun.

“Good morn, good morn, good morn”, cried they,
“Good morning,” oh says he,
“And which one of you three rich young lords
Will play at ball with me?”

“Well, we're all lords' and ladies' sons,
All born in a bower and hall,
And you are nothing but a Jewish child
Born in an oxen stall”

“Well, though you're lords' and ladies' sons
All born in your bower and hall
I'll prove to you at your latter end
I'm an angel above you all”

So he built him a bridge from the beams of the sun
And over the river danced he;
Them rich young lords followed after him
And drowned they was all three.

So it's up the hill and down the hill
Three rich young mothers run
Crying “Mary mild, fetch you home your child
For ours he's drowned each one.”

So Mary mild fetched home her child,
She laid him across her knee
And with a bundle of withy twigs
She gave him thrashes three.

“Oh bitter withy. oh bitter withy
That causes me to smart.
Oh the withy shall be very first tree
To perish at the heart.”

You wanna see somebody get spooled up? Tell an evangelical fundamentalist that you believe that The Christ and Mary Magdalena had, um, 'conjugal relations'. It's like winding up the Energizer Bunny....

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

the straw dogs are venerated for a day and then cast aside as waste

But it would be crazy to continue to venerate straw effigies after the ritual, of course. (I think — but others will have a better grasp of this — that the Zhuangzi has a pop at Confucius by having a foolish fellow do just that.)

And if the sage treats “the people” as straw dogs, to Heaven and Earth, the 10,000 things are as straw dogs.

What does it all mean? I have no idea.

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But it would be crazy to continue to venerate straw effigies after the ritual, of course.

Some effigies last longer than others.  Bronze effigies tend to be venerated for centuries, for example.  One could continue to venerate a straw dog, but after the appropriate holiday, it is a bit like a wilting Xmas tree.

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

What does it all mean? I have no idea.

The Sage holds no attachment to people or alliances, and discards the relationship when the purpose of their coming together has been achieved.  (Some might see this as betrayal however; see Arkat).

Edited February 16, 2023 by Darius West

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Although Nysalor-as-Rashoran might say that a bunch of other gods got killed in Godtime and came back at the Dawn — he was just a little late to the resurrection party, so exceptional means were necessary.

The other gods came back in their previous forms.  Yelm is back, looking much as he did during God Time, even if he isn't stuck on the Spike any more. This whole Rashoran-as-Nysalor thing is highly dubious for a deity. Then we find out that Nysalor has a Chaos Rune.  Just because he can hide his chaos taint, doesn't mean he isn't a chaos deity, it just means he's a chaos deity with fresh dirty tricks.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Darius West

[EricW]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

The other gods came back in their previous forms.  Yelm is back, looking much as he did during God Time, even if he isn't stuck on the Spike any more. This whole Rashoran-as-Nysalor thing is highly dubious for a deity. Then we find out that Nysalor has a Chaos Rune.  Just because he can hide his chaos taint, doesn't mean he isn't a chaos deity, it just means he's a chaos deity with fresh dirty tricks.

Krjalk Conversion spell doesn't work on the chaos tainted and illuminates, according to Lords of Terror...