Elmal / Yelmalio in the Alda-Chur confederation

[hipsterinspace]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

I think it's a perfectly reasonable assertion to make, but as things are textually, there are no differences in the Yelmalio cult across the cultures of the core book that are represented in the core book, and the way in which extratextual commentary adjusts them to accommodate people who are pastoral impala and ostrich herders is simply to remove the Pike skill and not replace it with anything, and also to remove Rune Priests from their cult.

They appear to replace Pike with their relevant Ride skill, something of far greater use to their way of life than a pike phalanx. As for the removal of priests, they are a warrior society within a tribe of pastoral nomads with a strong shamanic cultural bent, not a rigid social order based entirely around a temple and its hierarchy. The way the cult fits into their way of life doesn’t seem to call for a dedicated priesthood, and if they do find they have a need for someone in that role, it seems like that’s what shamans of the Sky Gazers society are for.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

When Chaosium creative staff talk about Yelmalio, the assumption is that Yelmalio cultist characters, player or otherwise, are people with pikes who stand in a big square block of 16x16 or multiples of such.

Not literally the core rulebook, but certainly published by Chaosium:  Dazarim Crescentblade, one of the pregen characters from the starter set is a Yelmalian sable rider. He has no pike skill, fights with kopis and javelins, and knows the rune spell Sureshot.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

When Chaosium creative staff talk about Yelmalio, the assumption is that Yelmalio cultist characters, player or otherwise, are people with pikes who stand in a big square block of 16x16 or multiples of such.

Actually Jeff has explicitly said that is not the case. He's noted that Yelmalions include both heavy infantry and horse riders. The assumption of pike-wielders is from players based on the Sun County model and the training in 2H pike with shield. 

[Eff]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Actually Jeff has explicitly said that is not the case. He's noted that Yelmalions include both heavy infantry and horse riders. The assumption of pike-wielders is from players based on the Sun County model and the training in 2H pike with shield. 

And yet again and again, this is the default model that is used when talking about Yelmalio casually- the fact that Yelmalio cultists are strong because they fight in a pike phalanx, for example. Whatever might be said about what particular Chaosium people say directly, what is assumed in the background is the "Sun County model" (just as the corebook deletes Riding from the RQ2 writeup as a skill).

[SDLeary]

Sorry, that's my fault. The conversation was talking about Sartar so I didn't qualify my comments.

9 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

One of the biggest Yelmalio cults among any playable group in the currently available material is in Prax among Impala Tribe, pygmy nomads. They are not hoplites by any stretch, given their stature they would probably struggle if placed in that role, but they clearly worship Yelmalio all the same. ...

I can't see anything that mentions the Impala are any less focused on Waha and Eiritha than any other tribe. Even in the Guide. Can you point me to the reference? Of course they would be focused on light cavalry. And if fighting along side the Domers, they would probably be in support of the phalanx. 

And, I agree! They (the Entity that is both Elmal and Yelmalio) would be worshipped differently (different customs and traditions) based on the culture. However, I don't see much of this difference described. Now I understand that a lot of this is probably lowering the barrier of entry for new recruits to RQ and Glorantha; but the differences should be mentioned somewhere for those of us that have been gaming in Glorantha for a long time. 

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Actually Jeff has explicitly said that is not the case. He's noted that Yelmalions include both heavy infantry and horse riders. The assumption of pike-wielders is from players based on the Sun County model and the training in 2H pike with shield. 

Correct. Note that in my comment above, I did state Hoplites and Phalangites, and those that support them (whom I didn't list but would include skirmishers and light cavalry). Even back in the RQ2 days they were described as organized in this way, though the skirmishers and light cavalry were generally described as allies, not as actual Sun Domers or Yelmalio followers.

SDLeary

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

I can't see anything that mentions the Impala are any less focused on Waha and Eiritha than any other tribe. Even in the Guide. Can you point me to the reference? Of course they would be focused on light cavalry. And if fighting along side the Domers, they would probably be in support of the phalanx. 

From here:

Quote

There are about as many Yelmalio cultists in Sartar as there are in Praxian Sun County. And about twice as many in Tarsh or among the Praxian tribes as there are in either Sartar or Praxian Sun County.
...
There are Yelmalio worshippers out in the various tribes too (esp the Impalas), almost as many in fact as the sedentary farmers in the Cradle Valley. The Nomad Yelmalions have a slightly different form of the cult with only Light Sons and no temple structure per se. The nomad Yelmalions come at certain predetermined days to worship at the Great Sun Dome of Mo Baustra.
...
There’s more Yelmalio cultists among just the Impala Tribe than there are in [Praxian Sun County].

They're said to get along with one another to a degree, but they aren't part of the Sun Domes or settled Yelmalio cult, they remain part of their tribe and follow Praxian nomadic ways (see the Yelmalio section from Cults of Prax). They fought when the original Sun Domers appeared in the Second Age (again, Cults of Prax). The Impalas were some of the most enthusiastic followers of the White Bull in the Third Age, alongside the Bison Tribe, so I'd imagine some of them fought the Sun Domers when they acted as Lunar Mercenaries, and again as part of Argrath's host when he attempted a conquest of Sun County.

There's also this, from here:

Quote

 

Yellow-Face (born 1594) is the martial leader of the Yelmalio cult for the Impala Nation. He maintains stiffly formal relationships with the Yelmalio cult leaders in Pavis and Sun County, holding them in private disdain.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Richard S.]

24 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

I can't see anything that mentions the Impala are any less focused on Waha and Eiritha than any other tribe. Even in the Guide. Can you point me to the reference? Of course they would be focused on light cavalry. And if fighting along side the Domers, they would probably be in support of the phalanx. 

Waha and Eiritha are still their primary gods, but Yelmalio has equal members with Waha according to Cults of Prax (and Orlanth is slightly higher apparently). The Sables, Zebra, and Unicorns also have considerable amounts. Tribal praxian Yelmalians in general outnumber those along the River of Cradles, though it's still the closest great temple so they'll worship there for important ceremonies and are technically subservient to its Light Captain.

And here's a collection of references pulled from the Well. Not all of them are directly relevant to the Praxian question, but they're the most recent stuff about Yelmalio so they might be useful.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/yelmalio-cultists-numbers/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-sun-dome-temple-in-sartar/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sun-dome-information/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-impala-tribe/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/light-in-the-sky/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/yelmalio-description/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/horsemen-and-charioteers-of-the-yelmalio-cult/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/river-of-cradles-farmers/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/yelmalio-cult-in-sartar/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/yelmalio-adventurers/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/cults-of-differing-power/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/how-cults-change/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/15-sun-dome-temples-again/

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Jardan isn’t the Little Sun, he’s an aspect of Yu-Kargzant, Yelm, the (big, regular) Sun. Rules-wise he is Yelm the Archer in the RQG book. Among their relatives, the Pentans, the Little Sun is called Kargzant.

I disagree.  Kargzant is Hyaloring Yelm and Yu-Kargzant is Grazelander Yelm.  Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun, and is the Son of the Sun and the Earth, which is consistent with Yelmalio.

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I wouldn’t sweat it. Just as religions don’t reside in their holy books but in the play cultures practices of their adherents, so RPG cultures don’t reside in their splatbooks. Maybe think of the splatbooks as like icons: the pretty pictures are revered but there needs to be a whole lot going on in people’s lives for the pictures to make any sense.

I disagree.  What goes in the rule books is mostly what gets used, especially by new GMs.

13 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

One thing that has been pointed out elsewhere is that the Little Sun worshippers of Tarsh and the Provinces never lost contact with the old Pelorian Solar traditions. The reason the Elmal civil war stuff happens in southern Sartar is that that’s the only place where the Elmal cult meaningfully exists, where the Heortling Little Sun was disconnected from the Pelorian Solar cults and old traditions by the Inhuman Occupation. This being the case, Harvar didn’t need to convert anyone, they were already Yelmalio worshippers up north, that’s how he was able to take over in the first place. If he’d had to convert a bunch of Elmal worshippers by force it would have made it impossible to leverage his position against the more numerous Orlanthi in the way that he did.

Again, I disagree.  I think that the people of Far Point live on the edge of Troll Territory, and the value of Elmal in fighting trolls cannot be underestimated.  Having light powers is also extremely valuable when battling Chaos in Snakepipe Hollow.  Back in RQ2 when there was only Yelmalio, and we didn't have an Elmal yet as the lore wasn't developed, I have watched how effective Yelmalio characters were in fighting Thanatari, and it was impressive, but it did involve making collapsible socket spears for climbing through narrow spaces first.  As to Harvar not needing to convert anyone, I am quite sure I have read something very different, where Harvar suppresses Orlanth, then suppressed both Barntar and Elmal, but mainly Elmal as Harvar is a Yelmalio, and had great plans to make Far Point into a new Sun Country.

13 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I think David Scott does a good job of clarifying how their cult is represented rules-wise and what they get here. They wouldn’t worship him like a Sun Domer, just like Pentan Kargzant worshippers wouldn’t worship their little sun like the Sun Domers. I don’t think Monrogh’s revelation is supposed to be that you have to be a hoplite who lives in a Sun Dome.

Okay, I saw the link.  I would point out that Kuschile Horse Archery doesn't apply to Ostriches, so in its present form, Yelmalio isn't much use to the Ostrich Riders.  My argument has always been that we need to highlight and preserve the different traditions of the Little Sun, and in its present form, the Yelmalio cult write-up is in danger of being very incomplete.  And I disagree that Monrogh's vision was not about everyone becoming a hoplite as religious fanatics are notoriously mono/megalomaniacal about adherence to their rules.  Monrogh is such a stickler for rules he was reborn as the Yelmalio spirit of retribution ffs.

[hipsterinspace]

52 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I disagree.  Kargzant is Hyaloring Yelm and Yu-Kargzant is Grazelander Yelm.  Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun, and is the Son of the Sun and the Earth, which is consistent with Yelmalio.

Kargzant is explicitly Lightfore/Yelmalio. The Grazelanders are the Hyalorings. They do not have a Little Sun; they are Pure Horse and have Yelm instead, there is no need for a Little Sun cult as long as they have the Vendref around to herd lesser beasts and farm for them. The Solar Pentans, on the other hand, are not Pure Horse and lack both the unbroken ancestal link and a group like the Vendref that would enable them to be Pure Horse, so instead they have both Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant, with the former being the god of nobles and their priestly caste, it strikes me as a similar arrangement to that of Yelm and Lodril in Dara Happa.

Jardan is Yelm the Archer (and the Golden Bow), Jasad is Yelm the Elder, Henird is the Sun Lord, Dastal is Yelm the Youth; their descriptions match the Yu-Kargzant subcults in the core book.

52 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Again, I disagree.  I think that the people of Far Point live on the edge of Troll Territory, and the value of Elmal in fighting trolls cannot be underestimated.  Having light powers is also extremely valuable when battling Chaos in Snakepipe Hollow.  Back in RQ2 when there was only Yelmalio, and we didn't have an Elmal yet as the lore wasn't developed, I have watched how effective Yelmalio characters were in fighting Thanatari, and it was impressive, but it did involve making collapsible socket spears for climbing through narrow spaces first.  As to Harvar not needing to convert anyone, I am quite sure I have read something very different, where Harvar suppresses Orlanth, then suppressed both Barntar and Elmal, but mainly Elmal as Harvar is a Yelmalio, and had great plans to make Far Point into a new Sun Country.

There's a Yelmalio cult to the north of Dragon Pass that remained in contact with the Pelorian Solar traditions for the centuries where the Heortlings to the south were cut off from them by the crossline and inhuman occupation. They wouldn't need to have Elmal because they already had Yelmalio. For them it was Yelmalio the entire time, even if they weren't organized along Sun Dome lines. Why would they need to have a revelation to convert them to a god they already worship and know the inner secrets of?

There's also this, which goes into how Harvar took over The Far Place:

Quote

So how, you might ask, could 1700 Yelmalio cultists dominate a tribal confederation with 5300 Orlanth cultists? Three things:

1. The Yelmalio cult was more centrally organized, with Harvar able to gain their support and defeat foes piecemeal.
2. Harvar had strong Lunar support. Money, mercenaries, you name it.
3. His rule was pretty tenuous once you got outside of Alda-Chur and the Vantaros tribal lands. The other tribes paid tribute and stayed out of trouble.

It makes it clear that they don't have Elmal to worry about, at this point nobody really has Elmal to worry about, at least if you're not from the Enhyli or Narri clans of the Colymar.

Edited April 13, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Darius West]

36 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

They wouldn't need to have Elmal because they already had Yelmalio. 

On the contrary, Orlanthi don't fight in formations like Yelmalio hoplites, and this is who settled Far Point.  Elmal is a spear and cavalry thane, but not a formation fighting hoplite.  Hoplite tactics are utterly useless in the terrain of Far Point which is famously rainy, full of forested hills and bogs, where the Orlanthi often live in crannogs.

Also Yelmalio societies are notoriously insular and overly structured, and are not a good fit with Orlanthi societies.  While there is the Sun Dome temple at Goldedge in Tarsh, I can't find information on when Goldedge was settled; only that it provides mercenaries to the Lunars, which is not the same as saying it has friendly ties to the Orlanthi in Far Point. 

What I do not see is a Sun Dome temple in Far Point, and there isn't one until Harvar Ironfist shows up.

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, Orlanthi don't fight in formations like Yelmalio hoplites, and this is who settled Far Point.  Elmal is a spear and cavalry thane, but not a formation fighting hoplite.  Hoplite tactics are utterly useless in the terrain of Far Point which is famously rainy, full of forested hills and bogs, where the Orlanthi often live in crannogs.

Also Yelmalio societies are notoriously insular and overly structured, and are not a good fit with Orlanthi societies.  While there is the Sun Dome temple at Goldedge in Tarsh, I can't find information on when Goldedge was settled; only that it provides mercenaries to the Lunars, which is not the same as saying it has friendly ties to the Orlanthi in Far Point. 

What I do not see is a Sun Dome temple in Far Point, and there isn't one until Harvar Ironfist shows up.

If you read the article linked in the text you quoted, a bunch of clan-dwelling (i.e. Orlanthi barbarian not Sun Domer) Yelmalio worshippers from the place where Yelmalio’s cult began, Saird, migrated south into Dragon Pass centuries before, when their homeland was conquered by the Lunars under Hwarin Dalthippa.

There are several Sun Domes in Saird, Mirin’s Cross was the center of the Yelmalio cult in the Second Age, but before 1582 they weren’t organized into Monrogh’s familiar temple phalanxes, nobody was (at least outside of Sartar and Prax). They still worshipped a god they call Yelmalio, they know of his Hill of Gold and could always travel there, they have his gifts and geases. Just because they’re not phalangites doesn’t mean they’re Elmal worshippers, they clearly aren’t, they’re not from the places where his cult existed in Heortland and Hendrikiland.

Edited April 13, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[radmonger]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

My argument has always been that we need to highlight and preserve the different traditions of the Little Sun, and in its present form, the Yelmalio cult write-up is in danger of being very incomplete. 

The present write-up is barely more than a page long. most of which is rules and tables. It's not in danger of being incomplete, it could not possibly be anything other than incomplete. It also predates the red book of magic, which contains the details of some of the spells that Yelmalio has in Cults of Prax,  e.g. Vision.

it is hard to imagine the long form write-up in the cults book will not be better. It's just a pity the cults books are organised by pantheons rather than regions, as Sartarite Yelmalio, with it's Elmal subcult, is by far the most significant potential PC cult to currently lack a long form Runequest write-up.

 

[DrGoth]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:01 AM, hipsterinspace said:

One thing that has been pointed out elsewhere is that the Little Sun worshippers of Tarsh and the Provinces never lost contact with the old Pelorian Solar traditions. The reason the Elmal civil war stuff happens in southern Sartar is that that’s the only place where the Elmal cult meaningfully exists, where the Heortling Little Sun was disconnected from the Pelorian Solar cults and old traditions by the Inhuman Occupation. This being the case, Harvar didn’t need to convert anyone, they were already Yelmalio worshippers up north, that’s how he was able to take over in the first place. If he’d had to convert a bunch of Elmal worshippers by force it would have made it impossible to leverage his position against the more numerous Orlanthi in the way that he did.

Well, they may have been Yelmalio already, but that doesn't mean they always were. Check Wyrms Footnoters #15, page 41, which is in the article on the Far Place. 

"The Aldachuri gave the Golden Spearman a shrine in the Elmal Temple"

That means they had an Elmal temple. Now that was somewhere in the period 1455-1490, so some time before the present setting.  A little later in that article it has "In the mid-1500s, Lunar magicians proved to the tribal priests that the Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth."  It also talks about Monrogh around there. It also says the Elmali at Alda-Chur recognised Yelmalio, but those at Ironspike stuck with Elmal.  So lots went over to Yelmalio, but by 1625 there might (maybe) be some old-style hangers on.

[Darius West]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:54 PM, hipsterinspace said:

Just because they’re not phalangites doesn’t mean they’re Elmal worshippers, they clearly aren’t, they’re not from the places where his cult existed in Heortland and Hendrikiland.

I don't think you understood my position at all.  I don't contest the idea that there are various Sun Dome cults coming out of Saird and Peloria.  My issue is that the victory of Monrogh in the Elmal War within South Sartar/North Hendrikiland  doesn't suddenly mean that all the Elmal worshippers in Sartar will suddenly give up on their Elmal traditions and become Yelmalio hoplites.  I am also pointin out that Far Point, which is a very isolated part of Sartar, on a troll haunted border with terrain inhospitable to hoplite tactics, is in no hurry to adopt a style of Solar warfare that is not appropriate for their environment, and will be in no rush to adopt Yelmalio beliefs from the south.  Most Far Pointer will likely see such acts as a slap in the face to everything they believe about their god, Elmal the Thunder Brother, and his place in the world.

[hipsterinspace]

21 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I don't think you understood my position at all.  I don't contest the idea that there are various Sun Dome cults coming out of Saird and Peloria.  My issue is that the victory of Monrogh in the Elmal War within South Sartar/North Hendrikiland  doesn't suddenly mean that all the Elmal worshippers in Sartar will suddenly give up on their Elmal traditions and become Yelmalio hoplites.  I am also pointin out that Far Point, which is a very isolated part of Sartar, on a troll haunted border with terrain inhospitable to hoplite tactics, is in no hurry to adopt a style of Solar warfare that is not appropriate for their environment, and will be in no rush to adopt Yelmalio beliefs from the south.  Most Far Pointer will likely see such acts as a slap in the face to everything they believe about their god, Elmal the Thunder Brother, and his place in the world.

I think we’re talking past each other. My point is that the people in Far Point are Tarshites who are from Saird. The Northern Theyalan-speaking groups originate from the Barbarian Belt and crossed into Dragon Pass from the North, Elmal is the foreign tradition from the south. They come from a place with native Yelmalio tradition that has persisted largely uninterrupted (though in several different forms) throughout time. They were able to travel to the Hill of Gold when the Heortlings were cut off by the crossline and inhuman occupation. That means that they have no need to convert to being something they already are. They would still know him as Yelmalio even if they aren’t phalangites.

Yelmalio in whatever form is also pretty well known for fighting trolls, certainly moreso than the Heortling Elmal cult, who for centuries were seemingly content to live in a place ruled over by darkness, paying tribute to Ezkankekko and his Kitori.

On 4/15/2023 at 3:52 AM, DrGoth said:

Well, they may have been Yelmalio already, but that doesn't mean they always were. Check Wyrms Footnoters #15, page 41, which is in the article on the Far Place. 

"The Aldachuri gave the Golden Spearman a shrine in the Elmal Temple"

That means they had an Elmal temple. Now that was somewhere in the period 1455-1490, so some time before the present setting.  A little later in that article it has "In the mid-1500s, Lunar magicians proved to the tribal priests that the Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth."  It also talks about Monrogh around there. It also says the Elmali at Alda-Chur recognised Yelmalio, but those at Ironspike stuck with Elmal.  So lots went over to Yelmalio, but by 1625 there might (maybe) be some old-style hangers on.

They’ve definitely retconned several things from WF15, even changing some things in a way that that doesn’t seem to make sense, like getting rid of the Ergeshi helots that the Sun Domers ruled over (being a professional warrior means it’s a lot harder to farm). Either way, the thing that they have emphasized strongly is that Elmal is a Heortling/Hendriki thing, and the people of Far Place are of Tarshite/Sairdite origins, the place Yelmalio comes from, they wouldn’t need the Lunar magicians to lead them astray. I like Elmal, I think that conflict is interesting, I just don’t think it’s going to play out among people who had continued contact with Solar cultures.

[DrGoth]

6 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

They’ve definitely retconned several things from WF15, even changing some things in a way that that doesn’t seem to make sense, like getting rid of the Ergeshi helots that the Sun Domers ruled over (being a professional warrior means it’s a lot harder to farm). Either way, the thing that they have emphasized strongly is that Elmal is a Heortling/Hendriki thing, and the people of Far Place are of Tarshite/Sairdite origins, the place Yelmalio comes from, they wouldn’t need the Lunar magicians to lead them astray. I like Elmal, I think that conflict is interesting, I just don’t think it’s going to play out among people who had continued contact with Solar cultures.

Has it been retconned that much?  I think it would be a mistake. Because if the Far Place was Yelmalio and no Elmal, than Monrogh was a bit of a non-event. "Let's worship the god of those guys up the road! I hear he's really cool!"

The people of Far Place might Tarshite/Sairdite origin. But they are *Orlanthi* from their. Not Solar worshippers.  And those Orlanthi came from where at the dawning?  THeir ancestors could have brought Elmal with them, and then eventually they brought it back to the Far Place.

Edited April 17, 2023 by DrGoth

[radmonger]

 

if you follow Yelmalio's path through myths, you find three stages[1] in his life;

• A a junior son of yelm, and loyal to him
• B an exile who followed chalana and/or ernalda when they left with orlanth, loyal to him afterwards
• C  ruler of their own domain after orlanth went off to the underworld, making their own decisions and answerable to noone (except Ernalda).

By the nature of god time, all three stages, and more, can be contacted[2]. Monrogh's novel claim, which he was able to prove, was that they were all the same. Perhaps he started a heroquest at a temple to A, lived through the events, and emerged at a temple to C?

To Sartarites, this was relevant as it showed Elmali how to be true to their god, and win the hand of Ernalda, without breaking any vow they swore to Orlanth.

But to the north[3] it was equally important as it provided a path to be independent of the legitimate hairs to the Yelmic empire without ever actually rebelling against it. They were Templar Spearmen, and they stayed Templar Spearman. They likely know secrets of fire spear magic forgotten in dragon pass. But now they are not necessarily a formal part of the imperial army,  but mercenaries hired by it. which is a much better deal.

So in the north, Sun Dome temples provide subcults A and C. In sartar and prax they provide B and C. Standalone small temples that provide B alone are rare, in most cases B is worshipped at either shrines in an orlanthi clan, or at large or great temples essentially run by subcult C. The fact that this arrangement works and persists is generally regarded as further proof of the underlying mythic identities Monrogh discovered.

A could be Yelmalio Golden Spear, one of many Dara Happen yelmic gods

B could be Yelmalio the Sun Brother, one of the thunder brothers collective, and Orlanth's solar thane. Known as Elmal for short, Elmal being old Sartarite for sun.

C is Yelmalio Cold Sun, and is the only one covered in the current RQ:G rulebook.

 

[1] Similarly, Orlanth Adventerous and Orlanth Thunderous are both Orlanth at different stages in his life. 

[2] Little of known to Sartaries of the time he spent with the elves, or underwater.

[3] Canon status; not known to  contradict anything published. 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by radmonger

[Joerg]

At the Battle of Night and Day, it was the Vanchite charioteer of the Dara Happan general who suggested to call in Daysenerus, his sun god. While the general burnt out from trying to contain that deity, Palangio managed.

The cult was already popular among certain Pelorian Orlanthi, and it spread all over Saird as well as into the Arcos Valley.

We don't know what was Balazar's background - he was anti-EWF, or at least willing to plunder the remains of the EWF 78 years after the dragon-friends were exterminated/experienced collective Utuma. The citadel culture he established resembles Dawn Age Kerofinela (e.g. Korolstead).

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Because if the Far Place was Yelmalio and no Elmal, than Monrogh was a bit of a non-event. "Let's worship the god of those guys up the road! I hear he's really cool!"

The Far Place still was Yelmalio without Sunspear (and Sunspear is a great deal to the Lightfore cults). Monrogh's disciples changed that, somewhat to the anger of some of the anti-Dara Happan-minded tribesfolk there (equating Hwarin with the Empire and Moonson as high priest of Yelm).

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I think we’re talking past each other. My point is that the people in Far Point are Tarshites who are from Saird. 

I have now read multiple different and conflicting things about where the settlers in far Point came from.  I strongly doubt that ANY Orlanthi tradition regards Yelmalio as part of their pantheon.  Elmal is a Thunder Brother, while Yelmalio are those odd solar outsiders whom they have little to do with.  I don't think Sairdite Orlanthi have a different tradition to Heortlanders on this matter.  Proof of this is the lack of a Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  After Harvar Ironfist comes to power one will be built, but not before.  Yelmalio is simply not culturally part of Orlanthi society, and the Yelmalio cult hierarchy doesn't want to be part of Orlanthi society, in fact they are disdainful of it, and the reverse is equally true.  Sairdite Orlanthi will have an Elmali tradition and will believe that Yelmalio is a separate deity with similar powers.  This is not a matter similar to Catholics and protestants who admit they worship the same god; this is more like "Ahura Mazda is not Yahweh and is not Allah, and we have been fighting those other religions for years".  All Orlanthi culture comes from the South in the Heortlands and moves north Before Time, and then subsequently during the First and Second Ages.  This is when the Elmal cult is established in the Barbarian Belt in the lands north of Tarsh.  Elmal exists in the Heortlands Before Time and goes north with the Barbarians.   The various sun dome cults are small and insular by comparison and view themselves as separate from the Orlanthi.  Elmali living among the Orlanthi do not see themselves as the same as these Solar Cultists.  I have never seen anything on paper that says that Tarshite Orlanthi have no Elmal cult and instead embrace Yelmalio or Antirius, and I don't accept that any Orlanthi societies have a Yelmalio cult.   Sun Domers are the frontier cult of the Solar Pantheon who exist to fight the Orlanthi on behalf of the Solar Gods, not befriend them.  Each Sun Dome Temple is an incursion of Solar Worship into Orlanthi lands and is not seen in a friendly way.  It might be tolerated, but it will not be liked, and relations are always strained.

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I have now read multiple different and conflicting things about where the settlers in far Point came from.  I strongly doubt that ANY Orlanthi tradition regards Yelmalio as part of their pantheon.  Elmal is a Thunder Brother, while Yelmalio are those odd solar outsiders whom they have little to do with.  I don't think Sairdite Orlanthi have a different tradition to Heortlanders on this matter.  Proof of this is the lack of a Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  After Harvar Ironfist comes to power one will be built, but not before.  Yelmalio is simply not culturally part of Orlanthi society, and the Yelmalio cult hierarchy doesn't want to be part of Orlanthi society, in fact they are disdainful of it, and the reverse is equally true.  Sairdite Orlanthi will have an Elmali tradition and will believe that Yelmalio is a separate deity with similar powers.  This is not a matter similar to Catholics and protestants who admit they worship the same god; this is more like "Ahura Mazda is not Yahweh and is not Allah, and we have been fighting those other religions for years".  All Orlanthi culture comes from the South in the Heortlands and moves north Before Time, and then subsequently during the First and Second Ages.  This is when the Elmal cult is established in the Barbarian Belt in the lands north of Tarsh.  Elmal exists in the Heortlands Before Time and goes north with the Barbarians.   The various sun dome cults are small and insular by comparison and view themselves as separate from the Orlanthi.  Elmali living among the Orlanthi do not see themselves as the same as these Solar Cultists.  I have never seen anything on paper that says that Tarshite Orlanthi have no Elmal cult and instead embrace Yelmalio or Antirius, and I don't accept that any Orlanthi societies have a Yelmalio cult.   Sun Domers are the frontier cult of the Solar Pantheon who exist to fight the Orlanthi on behalf of the Solar Gods, not befriend them.  Each Sun Dome Temple is an incursion of Solar Worship into Orlanthi lands and is not seen in a friendly way.  It might be tolerated, but it will not be liked, and relations are always strained.

The settlers at Far Point speak Tarshite. Tarshites are the Orlanthi of what is now the Lunar Provinces and lowland Peloria. They have had long and often productive contact with Solar cultures, in contrast to the Southern Theyalan groups who were cut off for hundreds of years after the Dragonkill War and lived under the dominion of Darkness, Ezkankekko, paying tribute to his trolls prior to the rise of Belintar. While there are a bunch of Sun Domes in lowland Peloria, especially in Saird (plus two in Tarsh), Yelmalio certainly has minor temples, and there are undoubtedly clan and tribal temples that exist along the exact same lines as those of Orlanth in Sartarite tribes. The Sun Domes were important once, in the early Second Age, but by the start of the Third Age their importance had declined and most Yelmalio worshipers were farmers from regular clans.

From the article I linked to further up-thread, conveniently linked again here:

For almost 200 years [after 956, the defeat of the EWF in Saird], Saird was a melting point of Yelmalion, Orlanthi, Dara Happan, and Carmanian cultures. Chaos and dragons were identified with Ganesatarus the Devil, the Lodril cult was imported but Dendara did not take, every man was the Last Light against the dragons, and Yelm and Orlanth were viewed as the Rival Brothers – who would naturally quarrel unless held together for a greater purpose (usually by Yelmalio).

….

But you can see from this, Yelmalio has been around in Peloria since the beginning.

The only weird thing was the Hendriki Tribe that worshiped a limited and constrained version of Yelmalio…

When you tell the story from this perspective, the Praxian Sun Dome Temple is just a weird footnote (“did you know that Yelmalio made it all the way to Prax in the Second Age, and there is a weird little colony of them still there! Wow!”), and the whole Elmal-Yelmalio thing becomes another footnote (“did you know that the rebellious Hendriking tribe had a weird little Yelmalio variant that was tolerated by the trolls and the Only Old One, but it died out in the 1550s when they embraced the larger Yelmalio cult?”).

In short, they don’t have Elmal. When they migrated south after their homelands were conquered by Hwarin Dalthippa and the Lunars, they almost certainly brought those traditions with them.

Edited April 17, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

In short, they don’t have Elmal.

I think that's the wrong way to read what Jeff writes. To him, Elmal is entirely and 100% Yelmalio, just as orlanth thunderous is 100% orlanth adventerous. So when he says 'Yelmalio', you cannot conclude form that 'not Elmal'. 

To most Glorantha lore fiends, Yelmalio worshipped as orlanth's sidekick, married to Redalda, is Elmal. Just as to Police fans, Gordon Sumner on stage singing _Message in a Bottle_  is Sting. if someone decides 'he is a pretentious prick and i am not going to do him the honor of using that silly name', that doesn't imply 'Sting is somewhere else, not on stage'.

A deity by any other name is still going to be able to stab you with a big spear.

All Great Temples to Yelmalio will provide, by the RQ;G rules, access to all Yelmalio subcults. if they don't do that, they are merely major, not great. So at all of the 15 canonical sun domes, the version of yelmalio for which he is an exile working as a horse patroller is as mythically available as the ones where he is son of the sun, or the cold sun in his own right.

This is natural; the distances involved are not that great, and Yelmalio is relatively formally organised as cults go. So as soon as cross-initiation was demonstrated to be possible (by Monrogh), all magical secrets would have been disseminated to all 15 great temples within a decade at most.

 

[hipsterinspace]

13 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I think that's the wrong way to read what Jeff writes. To him, Elmal is entirely and 100% Yelmalio, just as orlanth thunderous is 100% orlanth adventerous. So when he says 'Yelmalio', you cannot conclude form that 'not Elmal'. 

To most Glorantha lore fiends, Yelmalio worshipped as orlanth's sidekick, married to Redalda, is Elmal. Just as to Police fans, Gordon Sumner on stage singing _Message in a Bottle_  is Sting. if someone decides 'he is a pretentious prick and i am not going to do him the honor of using that silly name', that doesn't imply 'Sting is somewhere else, not on stage'.

A deity by any other name is still going to be able to stab you with a big spear.

All Great Temples to Yelmalio will provide, by the RQ;G rules, access to all Yelmalio subcults. if they don't do that, they are merely major, not great. So at all of the 15 canonical sun domes, the version of yelmalio for which he is an exile working as a horse patroller is as mythically available as the ones where he is son of the sun, or the cold sun in his own right.

This is natural; the distances involved are not that great, and Yelmalio is relatively formally organised as cults go. So as soon as cross-initiation was demonstrated to be possible (by Monrogh), all magical secrets would have been disseminated to all 15 great temples within a decade at most.

 

The big point there in what Jeff posted seems to be that, in contrast to the Pelorian tradition, Elmal is a mythically constrained version of Yelmalio. Sure, they are effectively the same god, but only the Elmal group gets associate status with Orlanth, who grants Shield, something that’s contingent on his befriending and ultimately becoming a hanger-on to Orlanth. I don’t think they refer to him as a Thunder Brother in any of the canon material, but that would make him even more directly subservient to Orlanth.

In contrast, Pelorian Yelmalio cult gets Shield from Yelm, alongside one-use Sunspear for rune levels, a gift from father to son. Mythically they are independent, not subservient to Orlanth in any capacity, but also not subservient to Yelm. For Hendriki and Heortlanders, cut off from the broader Solar mythic complex, it makes a lot of sense to tie him to what is nearby and accessible, there were probably a bunch of heroquesters who made friends with or swore loyalty to Orlanth at the Hill of Gold (Elmal’s trading shields myth), but for the others it’s unnecessary to make that kind of compromise, and I’m sure they would see it as a compromise.

[radmonger]

 

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

The big point there in what Jeff posted seems to be that, in contrast to the Pelorian tradition, Elmal is a mythically constrained version of Yelmalio.

 

Yes, they have 14 great temples, compared to the 0 to 2 remaining minor temples to the Elmal subcult in dragon pass.

Given the relatively short distances involved, along a major trade route, and the (since Monrogh) mutual cross-recognition of initiation between temples, there is really no plausible way for those temples not to know and teach every myth known to the Elmal subcult that they find useful.