Elmal / Yelmalio in the Alda-Chur confederation

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlands.  They may have headed north, but at their core they look to the Heortlands as the heartland of Orlanthi culture, because that is where the Orlanthi survivors of the Great Darkness came from and spread from.  In later ages Orlanthi from the north will go on pilgrimage to Kero Fin and the Temple of Old Wind and learn how to be proper Orlanthi. 

There are several Orlanthi groups who have been separate from the Heortlings since before time, before Heort, when they were all Vingkotling tribes. They’ve had contact, I’m sure there are even pilgrimages, but they haven’t been the same group or had the same cultural practices for thousands of years. They’ve been shaped by the contingent factors of their society and its location. Do you have a source for this claim that they went to the Heortlings to be re-educated on how to be “Proper Orlanthi”?

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Elmal should be treated as a separate deity, even if he is a similar deity.  Elmal is a Thunder Brother and thus a distinct part of  Orlanth's pantheon.  Yelmalio clearly isn't.  Elmal and Yelmalio are culturally distinct religious practices and will continue to be separate whether or not they worship the same deity.  Ultimately it is the worshippers who will decide and they will do so based on politics, and that means most clans won't want the disloyal thane Yelmalio to walk among them.

Plenty of Orlanthi clans have Seven Mothers initiates among them, even in Sartar prior to the Dragonrise. It’s far from out of the ordinary in the Provinces and Tarsh. Whether or not you want to enforce a strong taboo against Yelmalio among your Orlanthi, it’s vastly more mythically problematic to have Seven Mothers around, but they’re still there in significant numbers.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

This suggests to me that Elmal has retained his fire powers, which has long been part of my Elmal cult write-up.

Again, if you’d like to vary your Glorantha that way, you’re free to, but it has been made clear that this is not the case any longer.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

Elmal is Yelmalio, so 'Yelmalio, not Elmal' is not really a thing. They would be more likely to say something like  'I'm a true Elmali, initiated at the Vaarntar temple. Not one of those idiots from up at Runegate'.

In the case of a Sairdite Orlanthi Yelmalion, they would know him as Yelmalio, explicitly the Little Yelm. This is what I mean. Many of them would be recognizable as clan-dwelling Dog Orlanthi, though since 1582 many have gone to the Sun Domes. There are places that recognize him as such but still follow the cultural lifeways of the broader Orlanthi.

[Erol of Backford]

I am reading the Sky Ship and its possible link to being a Golden Bow. I had read it was a shamanistic path somewhere but am thinking like Elmal it has its own cult write up somewhere as well?

Is it just another rendition of the small sun but based in the Grazelands? As Hipster noted - Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun?

Please forgive my ignorance but who, what why where when and how related to Golden Bow? Is Golden Bow in the new books?

[Richard S.]

21 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am reading the Sky Ship and its possible link to being a Golden Bow. I had read it was a shamanistic path somewhere but am thinking like Elmal it has its own cult write up somewhere as well?

Is it just another rendition of the small sun but based in the Grazelands? As Hipster noted - Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun?

Please forgive my ignorance but who, what why where when and how related to Golden Bow? Is Golden Bow in the new books?

Golden Bow is Yelm's shaman path, followed by the Pure Horse People (and I think Jeff mentioned that even some Dara Happans use it). It's included in RQG as a shaman-only subcult of Yelm.

Kargzant is the Pentan name of Lightfore, but the Grazers probably just call him Yelmalio nowadays. Jardan I think is an aspect of Yelm the Warrior, one of his other sons or titles or something, and so worshiped by Yelm initiates as part of that cult.

[Erol of Backford]

Just now, Richard S. said:

Golden Bow is Yelm's shaman path, followed by the Pure Horse People

I thought so but found it interesting that Grazers would be excited enmasse at becoming shamans per the Sky Ship scenario?

[Richard S.]

4 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I thought so but found it interesting that Grazers would be excited enmasse at becoming shamans per the Sky Ship scenario?

Considering that scenario was designed over a decade before the modern Golden Bow writeup was, I don't think that's what it means. If I remember correctly, Golden Bow was just the name of the spirit tradition followed by the Grazers in HQ1, or at least an important society within it. It wasn't exclusive to shamans back then.

If it was rewritten today with similar wording, it'd probably be more like "this journey will make us Sun Lords" or something like that, though they'd probably just change it entirely so it doesn't sound like they're just excited about a promotion.

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

There are several Orlanthi groups who have been separate from the Heortlings since before time, before Heort, when they were all Vingkotling tribes. They’ve had contact, I’m sure there are even pilgrimages, but they haven’t been the same group or had the same cultural practices for thousands of years. They’ve been shaped by the contingent factors of their society and its location. Do you have a source for this claim that they went to the Heortlings to be re-educated on how to be “Proper Orlanthi”?

Vingkotlings originate in Dragon Pass.  They will pilgrimage to Kero Fin.

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Plenty of Orlanthi clans have Seven Mothers initiates among them, even in Sartar prior to the Dragonrise. It’s far from out of the ordinary in the Provinces and Tarsh. Whether or not you want to enforce a strong taboo against Yelmalio among your Orlanthi, it’s vastly more mythically problematic to have Seven Mothers around, but they’re still there in significant numbers.

The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet.  That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere.

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Again, if you’d like to vary your Glorantha that way, you’re free to, but it has been made clear that this is not the case any longer.

The point being that my position is backed by references.

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

In the case of a Sairdite Orlanthi Yelmalion, they would know him as Yelmalio, explicitly the Little Yelm. This is what I mean. Many of them would be recognizable as clan-dwelling Dog Orlanthi, though since 1582 many have gone to the Sun Domes. There are places that recognize him as such but still follow the cultural lifeways of the broader Orlanthi.

There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Darius West

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is it just another rendition of the small sun but based in the Grazelands? As Hipster noted - Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun?

If you look at my post, Jardan isn’t the little sun, he’s Yelm the Archer (initiate subcult) and offers a way to Yelm’s shaman path, as laid out in the RQG core book.

Golden Bow is also said to be the name of a Grazer warrior society, one of their leaders is featured in a minor role in the eponymous adventure of the Smoking Ruin adventure book.

Edited April 21, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am reading the Sky Ship and its possible link to being a Golden Bow. I had read it was a shamanistic path somewhere

There has to be some punning going on here, right? Ostensibly bow as in archery, but in the context of a sky ship, the pointy end — from there hop from Golden Bow to Golden Bough:

Quote

The king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth. He died at the harvest and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend of rebirth was central to almost all of the world's mythologies. — Wikipedia

I tried to read The Golden Bough (abridged version) in my 20s, but I got bored and gave up. I blame Auntie Ludwig.

——————————

PS: Pure Horse shamanistic path in HQ Glorantha p. 139 — all of two sentences, I think.

Edited April 21, 2023 by mfbrandi
PS

[hipsterinspace]

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet.  That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere.

He’s not proselytizing Yelmalio, he’s suppressing Orlanth worship. He is using his cadre of Yelmalio worshipers to prevent the Orlanthi from accessing their holy sites and performing their rites by force, same as the Lunars have the Sun Domers doing at the Hill of Orlanth Victorious after Starbrow’s rebellion. It’s antagonistic, sure, but doesn’t involve forcing people to initiate into a different cult, I don’t think most gods would accept initiations done under duress rather than a genuine call to them.

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

Again, they are of Tarshite culture and speak Tarshite. This is pointed out explicitly, they are originally from Tarsh. Tarshites mostly come from Saird, Holay, Vanch, Aggar, and elsewhere in Peloria’s barbarian belt. This is a significant cultural difference from the Heortlings who constitute most of Sartar’s population and is notable enough to warrant mention.

Edited April 21, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Erol of Backford]

53 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Yelm the Archer (initiate subcult)

I see this now, thanks.

53 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Golden Bow is also said to be the name of a Grazer warrior society

Agreed, it says qualify us to be in... so yes a warrior society.

What does being a Golden bow get you besides recognition? Any spells or abilities? Rainbow Bridge anyone?

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

Golden Bow is also said to be the name of a Grazer warrior society, one of their leaders is featured in a minor role in the eponymous adventure of the Smoking Ruin adventure book.

In Smoking Ruins it says cannot contact Golden Bow directly and so is some sort of deity? Seems like a being, a shaman path and a warrior society...

Also says Grazer Four Gifts Clan forms the core of the Golden Bow Spirit Society (an elite Grazer Cavalry troop)...

Mr. Svensson how about a cult write up for this as well? Smoking Ruins says marking are different than Yelmic ones... could be another Yelmalio - Elmal type issue to vet?

[hipsterinspace]

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

In Smoking Ruins it says cannot contact Golden Bow directly and so is some sort of deity? Seems like a being, a shaman path and a warrior society...

Also says Grazer Four Gifts Clan forms the core of the Golden Bow Spirit Society (an elite Grazer Cavalry troop)...

If someone can’t contact an entity directly, that’s often why they would use a spirit cult or society instead, there’s a lot more flexibility. It’s very common in Prax, with several spirit societies forming important parts of the cultic landscape, the most important one of 1625 probably being the intertribal White Bull Society which is integrated into Storm Bull, Waha, and Orlanth.

For the Grazers it’s a place for a more esoteric approach to the Yelmic religion. There’s already a short-form write-up in the RQG core book, and there are some theories out there about possible ties between Golden Bow and the lost Sun of Genert’s Garden, Splendid Yamsur.

[Erol of Backford]

2 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Splendid Yamsur

I thought he's splendidly like all chopped up... died at Earthfall? Hard to talk to if they are dead and headless... are Yamsur and Golden Bow siblings?

Was it Mr. Phipp who had a campaign the bring back Genert was it? That would be epic.

[Darius West]

8 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

He’s not proselytizing Yelmalio, he’s suppressing Orlanth worship. 

According to what I've read Harvar was doing both.

 

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was it Mr. Phipp who had a campaign the bring back Genert was it?

It was.

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

That would be epic.

It was.

This will come out as Secrets of the Oasis Folk, at some point.

 

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

This will come out as Secrets of the Oasis Folk, at some point.

If you could work a scenario(s) into it where the bog waters a purified, Yamsur's head is found and reattached and he is brought back, I'd buy that one. The thread Prax and the thousand questions had a good bit of ideas in it.

(sorry this has gotten off topic)

Edited April 22, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlands. 

The Oranor folk who worship Orlanth the Bull Rider would be amused to hear this claim. Yes, they did get into contact with the Bright Empire and its precedessor, the Second Council, and they did accept Harmast and Talor when they were struggling against the monstrous things coming out of the Gate of Banir (apparently on behalf of some less enlightened local satrap of the Bright Empire), but their traditions are as old and as valid as those of the sheep Orlanthi of Kerofinela and Saird.

The "Dawn Age Civilizations" map in Troll Pak shows the areas settled by Malkioni on the Neliomi Sea as being civilized. And so they were, as much as the Hykimi neighbors of theirs whose city states were at war with the Malkioni ones, until a certain Hrestol tipped the balance against these early civilized Hykimi-adjacent urban cultures.

Kethaela, Kerofinela and Saird are the regions which never came into contact with the Kachisti civilization (before the Vadeli/Nidan uprising). The rest of the Genertelan Hill Barbarians may have inherited some of the Brithini urban culture, or at least of their diplomacy and speaking magic. And they may have a solar streak, too, like those horse barbarians of the Tanier Valley.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

They may have headed north, but at their core they look to the Heortlands as the heartland of Orlanthi culture, because that is where the Orlanthi survivors of the Great Darkness came from and spread from.  In later ages Orlanthi from the north will go on pilgrimage to Kero Fin and the Temple of Old Wind and learn how to be proper Orlanthi. 

The areas of influence of Kero Fin and Top of the World have quite a bit of overlap. Orlanthi descended from the Vingkotlings tend to look towards Kero Fin (and Grizly Mountain) for their magical guidance, but other people in Sylila and further west may choose to look towards Top of the World as Orlanth's birthplace and the most holy Storm Mountain in the world. (Never mind those in Umathela with their own peak in or near the Tarmo mountains.)

The Heortlings split from the Second Council, leaving the rest of the Orlanthi world to their own devices, with Top of the World as their spiritual center. This may have included the Sairdite Orlanthi (Vanch, Imther, Sylila, Talastar) as well. The Dorastans went off in the direction of an urban culture we don't know much about, expect that it was respected by the Dara Happans of the Khordavu dynasty as civilized and equal partner in raising the Perfect God.

Other than the Hendriki who made a fetish out of hiding in their woods, the Dawn Age and Second Age Orlanthi were a quite urbanized civilization even in Kerofinela. With the dragonfriend influences, this urbanization probably increased more, leaving behind places like Clearwine.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Elmal should be treated as a separate deity, even if he is a similar deity.  Elmal is a Thunder Brother and thus a distinct part of  Orlanth's pantheon. 

Storm Bull, Elmal, Heler, Humakt, Valind, Pole Star, and even Argan Argar may have fought alongside the Vingkotlings and the Storm Brothers, but at best they were included in the host of the Storm Brothers, not as Storm Brothers. Many a Vingkotling demigod/hero may have actually joined the Storm Brothers, and the Star Captain founders of the Vingkotling Star Tribes may have split off that collective when they returned to their mortal kin. There may have been more than the four we know from the Dawn Survival Sites, as there may have been Vingkotling Tribes who did not survive the Greater Darkness. (Given the broken-up state of Greater Darkness Genertela, their lands may have fallen into oblivion, too, not included in Arachne Solara's Web, or at least not surfacing on her great tapestry of recovery.)

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yelmalio clearly isn't. 

Yelmalio clearly was not a Vingkotling deity. He may still have been a brother-in-arms of the Star Captains of Orlanth's sky conquest host that descended to the Surface World after ridding the Sky World of the Sky Terror and its minions. Some of the Star Deities of the Starlight Wanderers of the Arcos Valley may have been associates of Orlanth, too.

Argan Argar clearly was not a Vingkotling deity, either. He seems to have been part of the Manirian boar Orlanti pantheon, though, with Aram-ya-Udram and Vathmai (or his great-grandson Lalmor) prominent Tusker-boar-riding representatives, and whatever other group the Torkani may have descended from. The human portion of the Kitori were Orlanthi, too, at the very least by culture, but many by cult as well.

Esrolian Harono (the Sun Emperor) may have been the local incarnation of Yelm. It is quite possible that the Heortling Evil Emperor myth with the Contests of Dancing,  Music and Magic and finally Martial Prowess took place in Esrolia and never on the Oslir, with the Iron Ram god as one of four conspirators against Murharzarm (with Verithurus(a), the Bat, and Red-Sworded Tolat/Shargash joining him) being unrelated to anything Vingkotling. 

We don't know whether the northern Orlanthi (bear-totem folk, Iron Ram folk who went extinct, Andam folk who went extinct, Raccoon Folk who adapted, Dog Folk who persisted) had anything to do with Harono and Ezel (as Ernalda's home) but everything with the Dara Happan Rebellus Terminus. The area outside of Marallarvus's Dome (raised against the advancing Glacier, but serving as a hide-out against the first terrible advance of Chaos, too) may have been obliterated or forgotten, leaving us with a smaller Genertela than went into the Gods War.

The Hill of Gold lies smack dab in northern Orlanthi territory, and the Orlanthi there will see a different Lightfore than Elmal as their guiding light. Whether that is Harald Smith's (@jajagappa) Khelmal (see the excellent Edge of Empire book on the Jonstown Compendium, or search the Digest archives for the term Khelmal if you don't know what I am talking about) or take Balazar's Sun Dome cult.

 

The Orlanthi who fled Hwarin Dalthippa's conquests included Pelorian Orlanthi of all the northern kingdoms - Vanchites, Imtherites, riverine Sairdites, folk from Dara Ni, Aggar, Holay. Some of these had VIngkotling roots, many others did not.

The Dinacoli tribe just north of the Creek are horse-riding Orlanthi with a Yelmalio tradition (though probably without either hoplites or access to Sun Spear prior to Monrogh's revelations and innovations). At least according to a direct divination from Greg when I did research for a scenario on both sides of the Creek after the shock of there being a Cold Sun god named Elmal had hit the RQ2/RQ3 community of the middle to late nineties.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Elmal and Yelmalio are culturally distinct religious practices.

Yes. Yelmalio is practiced by people whose ancestors thought that Nysalor might have been a good idea at the time, or at least not bad enough to go to war over, and surely not side by side with the trolls. The cult is practiced by elf-friends throughout Glorantha.

Elmal was big previous to peaceful contact with the Dara Happans. 

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

and will continue to be separate whether or not they worship the same deity. 

YGWV. Their ancestors certainly worshiped the same deity in the same places before Monrogh had his revelation and led a majority of the Sun worshipers out of southern Sartar into Sun Dome County.  Apparently entire clans of the Locaem, and probably a whole load of individual households from other clans.

Who would have thought that within one century after the Battle of Waterloo the English would fight two major wars on the side of the French?

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Ultimately it is the worshippers who will decide and they will do so based on politics, and that means most clans won't want the disloyal thane Yelmalio to walk among them.

The situation you are describing might be the aftermath of the betrayal of Jarosar (although the culprits in question have been consistently painted as not-so-loyal Elmali rather than as Yelmalians).

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

👉We literally have a reference to Yelmalio stealing Elmal's fire powers one time.👈

And we know that Ernalda betrayed Orlanth Rex-in-Exile with Orlanth Niskis. Already major human heroes have pluripresence. (The two different Argraths/Garrath people may encounter might be an initial symptom of capital H herodom...) Arkat wounded himself.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

This suggests to me that Elmal has retained his fire powers, which has long been part of my Elmal cult write-up.

To me this sounds like Yelmalio took them over from Elmal, only to lose them again, leaving both without.

Or "Yelmalio stealing it" might be a belated loss of the fire powers when the event horizon from Yelmalio's defeat at the Hill of Gold reached Elmal?

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

As far as I am concerned the matter is closed and I consider my position completely vindicated.

YGWV. Certainly from mine.

[Jeff]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:19 PM, Darius West said:

Vingkotlings originate in Dragon Pass.  They will pilgrimage to Kero Fin.

The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet.  That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere.

The point being that my position is backed by references.

There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

Vingkotlings were around some 5000 years ago. Their civilization ended long before the Dawn. They are about as relevant to this discussion as Final Neolithic settlements are in order to understand the tensions in Philip's Thessaly.

And I will say it again, Harvar Ironfist did not seek to convert everyone to Yelmalio. He used that cult to establish his personal rule over the tribes around Alda-Chur, and ruled by force and without public legitimacy - hence his sobriquet. Here's his official summary:

Harvar Ironfist

This Light Son from the Vantaros tribe was the leading figure in the Far Point for the past generation. Born in 1580, he became Light Captain of Alda-Chur in 1610 and crushed the Righteous Wind Rebellion the following year. He proclaimed himself Prince of Alda-Chur and was appointed Duke of Far Point by the Lunar Provincial Government. He ruthlessly enforced his peace in the Far Point, aggressively protecting merchants and travelers. He was devoured during the Dragonrise, and his death has left a vacuum with the Far Point tribes.

 

 

[soltakss]

On 4/20/2023 at 8:36 AM, Darius West said:

ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlings from Before Time.

Why do you say that?

Heortlings were a southern people around Kero Fin. There are a lot of Orlanthi from the north, around Top of the World. Don't forget that Orlanth lives on Top of the World, sure he was born on Kero Fin but that isn't his home.

Orlanthi clans at the Dawn were not all in Dragon Pass.

 

[soltakss]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:19 PM, Darius West said:

Vingkotlings originate in Dragon Pass.  They will pilgrimage to Kero Fin.

Great, but as Jeff says, they were many Ages ago, sort of mythical ancestors of some of the Orlanthi people.

Not all Orlanthi are found in Heortland or Sartar, or even have ties to those areas. Sartar clans and tribes are only a few centuries old, at best, and broke ties with the older clans in the Holy Country and Tash. Even the clans and tribes in those areas probably don't claim that they were founded before the Dawn, or even in the First and Second Ages, although some might. 

Orlanthi in and around Kero Fin will gravitate to Kero Fin. Those around Tope of the World will gravitate to that huge sacred mountain. Lesser Sacred Mountains also attract local Orlanthi. I think that Jeff said that the Skanthi look towards Kero Fin, not Top of the World, but they are on the very edge of Kero Fin's influence.

[Joerg]

Just now, soltakss said:

  

On 4/20/2023 at 9:36 AM, Darius West said:

ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlings from Before Time.  

Why do you say that?

There is a slight truth to this statement, as in all modern Orlanthi magic derives from the message of the Lightbringers, whose apparently superior ways of magic and worship were adopted even by Orlanthi peoples who had found out of the slouch of the Greater Darkness trauma on their own, like the Enerali of Hrelar Amali. 

ALL their culture derives from the examples set by their deity. And in some places, these examples included bull riding or boar riding.

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Great, but as Jeff says, they were many Ages ago, sort of mythical ancestors of some of the Orlanthi people.

Not all Orlanthi are found in Heortland or Sartar, or even have ties to those areas. Sartar clans and tribes are only a few centuries old, at best, and broke ties with the older clans in the Holy Country and Tash. Even the clans and tribes in those areas probably don't claim that they were founded before the Dawn, or even in the First and Second Ages, although some might. 

Orlanthi in and around Kero Fin will gravitate to Kero Fin. Those around Tope of the World will gravitate to that huge sacred mountain. Lesser Sacred Mountains also attract local Orlanthi. I think that Jeff said that the Skanthi look towards Kero Fin, not Top of the World, but they are on the very edge of Kero Fin's influence.

Yeah, I suspect few "Heortling" (Sartarite and Heortlending) clans predate the Second Age. The old Hendrikar kinship group claim a thousand-year history before they were broken. Some Sartarite clans certainly claim ancient or mythological origins - although such claims should not be understand as historical links.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Some Sartarite clans certainly claim ancient or mythological origins - although such claims should not be understand as historical links.

After all, to hear them tell it EVERY Irishman is a direct descendant of Cu Chulain AND Brian Boru! And every Scot is blood-kin to William Wallace. 😁

Which does NOT mean that we Americans don't have our version of, um, let's just call it 'mythological misunderstandings' too... I mean, I love my country, but I know my people... 🤣😅😂

[David Scott]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:54 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Was it Mr. Phipp who had a campaign the bring back Genert was it? That would be epic.

To clarify, that is my map of where Seolinthur fell, not Genert.

 

[Erol of Backford]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

To clarify, that is my map of where Seolinthur fell, not Genert.

Oh, I understood that, sorry if I was/am confusing. Thought it'd be cool to rebuild Seolinthur while cleansing the Bog... but where is his head and how to rebuild it.

Maybe the chaos dwarves in the Tunneled Hills are hiding information on this and the Bog is being polluted with something similar to the God Learner shell-boat-island thingy that spews out as black tarish waste ichor. TotRM 10 Storms in the Deep

Only the Sun Domers know how to combat this via there relation with the Zola Fel and the Cleansed One subcult?

Maybe there is a library in the Alda-Chur Sun Dome with some obscure info on this?

[DrGoth]

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yeah, I suspect few "Heortling" (Sartarite and Heortlending) clans predate the Second Age. The old Hendrikar kinship group claim a thousand-year history before they were broken. Some Sartarite clans certainly claim ancient or mythological origins - although such claims should not be understand as historical links.

In other words, don't take KoDP too literally.