Arkat Cult conflict with Illumination

[mfbrandi]

Some light relief. Perhaps the Arkati are just really poor mathematicians.

If the Arkati had been educated at my primary school — in the wake of the “new maths” — practically the first thing they would have been given to do (at four or five years of age) would have been to take a set of crayons to a book full of Venn diagrams. I believe it had an orange cover and many pictures of brass band instruments.

Even the naïve do not think they can attack the Void directly, but they are happy to put to the sword all the chaotic creatures with chaotic features — the goatfolk, the “tentacled abominations,” the vegetarians, the atheists, and those who spilled their pints — they can “detect” with their “magic powers.”

Some — fancying themselves more sophisticated — started to say, “Of course, Chaos is part of the world.” The more hostile of them excused their attacks on sundry elements of Cosmos, “Chaos is part of the world; how else can we excise it?”

The shop steward of the Union of Sane Illuminates and Allied Void Cultists (or ∅, because that is a lot to put on a letterhead) sighed and adjusted the legend on the revised cosmological diagram. “Don’t you see, you fools? Destroy any element of Cosmos you like, Chaos will remain untouched.”

The Arkati scratched their heads, because:

• Everything of Chaos is evil
• There is nothing of Chaos which is evil

Those who were not netted and sent to a remedial set theory class shrugged and continued their crusade.

[mfbrandi]

11 minutes ago, Zac said:

you need to pass through that first stage and not turn into a psychopath to be truly Illuminated?

Are you going to tell my Uncle ZZ that he is not truly illuminated? All that heat, all that pain, all those scars — all for nothing! He won’t take it well. Which is not to say you are wrong, of course. 😉

(Or he is not really a psychopath — but keep that on the down low: it would ruin his rep.)

[mfbrandi]

19 minutes ago, Zac said:

Maybe Illumination is just the first step and you need to pass through that first stage and not turn into a psychopath to be truly Illuminated?

I think — but really, what do I know? — that the Buddhists might agree: in your meditation, you have to get past the stage of “temptation” by hallucinated demons on your way to the peace of being blown out. (But that may just be me ventriloquising Ken, the hippy Trotskyite.)

[Eagle Talon]

On 8/27/2023 at 2:21 PM, Zac said:

I am just trying to wrap my head around some descriptions of the Arkat Cult from the Cult Compemdium.

And

If they are Illuminated they should have lost their fear of Chaos. So why are they trying to destroy Chaos? Is it some form of false Illumination?

This is in part one of the events of the Hero Wars. The Safelster region and the prophecy of the return of Arkat. What is very significant about Safelster is that it is made of a lot of different kingdoms who disagree on the main question. Every kingdom and sect of Arkat in that region believe they have the truth about Arkat and that others are all wrong. 

Arkat is the embodiment of "the ends justify the needs". Meaning so some sects may use chaos. Remember that Arkat is worshipped in all forms of his quest. From a Brithini warrior to a ZZ troll berserker. 

Now the good stuff in the Hero Wars is when Arkat returns. In 5 (or more) different persons. That's when the proverbial poop hits the fan. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also compare Oddi the Keen, illuminated Storm Bull cultist, who still fights Chaos

OK, but he joined Ralzakark's Chaos army. (Then later he killed Ralzakark in a suicidal act.)

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

OK, but he joined Ralzakark's Chaos army. (Then later he killed Ralzakark in a suicidal act.)

so maybe his fundamental goal was to killed Ralzakark and, as Illuminate he did no "sane" stormbuller could ever do, he joined a chaotic army.

(hypothesis) his illumination did not convince (illuminate?) him that chaos is good, but that  joining (maybe in his logic temporary) chaos to destroy more chaos is good

 

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

(hypothesis) his illumination did not convince (illuminate?) him that chaos is good, but that  joining (maybe in his logic temporary) chaos to destroy more chaos is good

One Chaotic threat was greater than the other, so using one to destroy the other is a reasonable choice (e.g. as when Wakboth defeated Kajaboor) vs. having his own folk go off and get destroyed by either of the Chaotic threats.

I'm reminded of the Stormbringer setting where if I recall correctly, Elric's father(?) fought at the edge of the world to transform the stuff of Chaos into the substance of the world (and so expand the borders of the world).

[Ormi Phengaria]

Quote

"The words ‘chaos’ and ‘chaotic’ usually are misused and misapplied, adding to confusions.

 ...sometimes it seems that anything someone fears is called chaotic...

...Perhaps ‘chaotic’ really means ‘that which we do not understand....’

The condition [of Primal Chaos] is always passive and inert until acted upon by the gods."

-portion of a private letter from a Lhankor Mhy priest, ca. 1599 ST, translation by Greg Stafford

Now, you can read from this or surmise from many similar implications that the attitude most people take against chaos is primarily one of fear and incomprehension, avoidance, repulsion, a bigotry. That is true. Their consideration of chaos in this manner is also warranted; by and large chaos is evil and inimical to them and their lives. But then there is a third angle to this truth of ours, that chaos in and of itself is neither evil nor inimical to the cosmos.

So, altogether, that's: 1) chaos is real and fear of chaotics is warranted, 2) chaos in and of itself is the condition of what is unknown and apart from you and 3) these things apart from you which you do not understand are nonetheless as much a part of the universe as you are. If you bring these three things together, you might conclude that even the most awful creatures of chaos may be brought into your world and genuinely compromised with in a way which truly benefits everything. But you may also, with equal validity and coherence, conclude that chaos in and of itself is your real enemy.

The former is the perspective nominally offered by Nysalor, and the latter is the perspective nominally offered by Arkat. The Bright Empire brought people together, but its Illuminates kept the rifts between them from healing, and exploited them for their own ends. Arkat betrayed every cult he joined, and yet left lasting connections between them.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Ormi Phengaria

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

OK, but he joined Ralzakark's Chaos army. (Then later he killed Ralzakark in a suicidal act.)

Something he couldn’t have managed without the Illumination (being a Storm Bull). With it, he was ready to use Ralzakark as a tool against the Lunars.

[French Desperate WindChild]

58 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm reminded of the Stormbringer setting where if I recall correctly, Elric's father(?) fought at the edge of the world to transform the stuff of Chaos into the substance of the world (and so expand the borders of the world).

heroes yes in Stormbringer. Not sure if Elric's father, but there were many (not billions :p) , each of them "gaining" more land. So maybe Elric's father, I don't remember that

but I don't think the "chaos nature" in Stormbringer, in Glorantha and for example in Chronicles of Amber are the same.

I understand differences for the "matter" ( world with less logic and opportunity to create matter with more "logic" in SB, world with less logic in Amber, primal chaos dissolving matter in Glorantha  -we don't know if there is "something" beyond glorantha.. well I don't know, maybe some have reference about that-)

and for the sentient creatures -god or just being-, there are many difference too (evil but structured in SB, just "normal" in Amber - so god, bad, smart, dumb like anyone else-, evil and unstructured for the majority in Glorantha)

and probably we (here in this forum) project our personal understanding of what is chaos (matter and gods), so it is hard to share a demonstration when we don't share the definition (maybe some of you will disagree with me about the danger of non sentient chaos -gorps, bat, ... - for the "world" , world as the definition of glorantha, the world where there was a spike of law, now destroyed. What there is beyond glorantha, if something exists beyond, is not part of the world from my gloranthan perspective)

 

[Zac]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I think — but really, what do I know? — that the Buddhists might agree: in your meditation, you have to get past the stage of “temptation” by hallucinated demons on your way to the peace of being blown out. (But that may just be me ventriloquising Ken, the hippy Trotskyite.)

I was referencing what little I had read about buddhism :-)

[Zac]

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Something he couldn’t have managed without the Illumination (being a Storm Bull). With it, he was ready to use Ralzakark as a tool against the Lunars.

That is a very flexible moral outlook 🙂 Thank the Red Goddess for that.

[Zac]

1 hour ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

and yet left lasting connections between them

Mostly that they could all agree that they didn't like Arkat very much. 

[metcalph]

Reconciling Cults of Terror with Arkat the Deceiver

I think this began as a *study* of Gbaji with a view to identifying his signs and powers.  Later the Arkati realized that it could be heroquested against with the damage they inflicted upon it be magically reflected in their enemies in the world at large.  Any damage Gbaji inflicted upon them was acceptable losses.  

Accordingly every Safelstran City has a cult of Gbaji.  Every season they have public stonings or burnings of the images of Gbaji.  At the same time, the city's Arkati carry out magical combat against Gbaji.  The images are usually representative of neighbouring cities although other states and species have been used (like say Theoblanc the White or an EWF Dragon).  

But the danger of these rituals is that with enough damage, an Arkati might succumb to the Deceiver.  If undetected, the Arkati might become attracted to the Lords of Terror and join some horrible cult such as the Summer White Society, the Borists or the Chaos Monks.

[Manunancy]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'm reminded of the Stormbringer setting where if I recall correctly, Elric's father(?) fought at the edge of the world to transform the stuff of Chaos into the substance of the world (and so expand the borders of the world).

Nope, the version given in the books was Aubec of Malador (not 100% sure of the name as i'm working back from the french translation), one hero of the liberation of humans nations from Melniboné - several centuries before elric's time. Elric's father was emperor of Melninoné well afer the ermpire shrank back to just the island and never did tha tsort of things as far as I know (and would have very little incentive to do such risky endeavors for the benefit of worthless rebellious slaves - as the borders of the world lay beyond teh human nations)

[JRE]

My interpretation of Arkat the deceiver is different. No Arkati would worship Gbaji. But many sects will have enemy Arkati sects, and those obviously follow Arkat the deceiver. In most of Safelster Arkat the Destroyer sects, also known as Arkat Kingtroll, are classed as such, except in Naskorion. 
 

Many sects will be willing to use Chaos or chaos related magic if the benefit is large enough. It is part of the willing to do anything to win position. The limit, for me, is in the Hero Plane, where they will refuse to aid Chaos in any way. But in the mundane world, it does not matter as much. 
 

Most (if not all) of the claimed Boristi sightings or Chaos Monk atrocities are actually Arkati plots and deniable terror attacks. 
 

So I do not see Arkat the deceiver as one of the Arkats, but any gathering of different Arkati sects will have several labeled as deceivers. 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

No Arkati would worship Gbaji. But many sects will have enemy Arkati sects, and those obviously follow Arkat the deceiver.

Or more straightforwardly (😉), every Arkati  says (and may even believe), “Of course, I would never favour the Deceiver, but I wouldn’t put it past my fellow Arkati. They are a rum bunch, but don’t worry, I have my third eye on them. Yes, I know we are all Nysaloreans, but we haven’t gone over to the Dark Side en masse — I mean, we are … Zorak Zoran, and where is the Darkness in that? Well, OK, superficially, on the outside, but inside, all Aether!”

Self-deceiving, hypocritical, pointless people — but there is one good thing about being an Arkati: even if you are the last person left alive, you’ll not lack for an enemy.

Spoiler

The Arkat cult maintains a strict watch on itself … Their strict moral code is clearly within the bounds of … non-Chaotic behaviour, and their great duty is to … stamp out Chaos, and they know no limit in pursuing that duty … An Arkat cultist will never accept the use of Chaotic magic. They never will deal fairly or honestly with any Chaotic being or thing … The cultists of Arkat consider themselves the epitome of the Light Side of Nysalor, and condemn without hesitation he who is prey to the Dark Side. — Cults of Terror ‘Classic’, p. 87

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

So I do not see Arkat the deceiver as one of the Arkats

But then again, why not?

I see the appeal of “I am ruthlessly efficient, you are a bit sneaky, but they are unprincipled liars,” but there is the question of Arkat’s great suffering and the “ultimate price” (CoT ‘Classic’, p. 87) he paid. Surely the ultimate price Arkat paid was to become — or to see that he was all along — one of the people he warned us about (or possibly all of them). What could be worse for the Bright One than to be revealed to himself as the Deceiver?

If tragic, it should be inevitable: our saviour is himself a miserable sinner, else how could he be human? And if not human, he cannot save us. So Arkat the Deceiver is a canonical Arkat and not just a way to smear Arkat cultists who have fallen off the path. “I would do anything for Law … but I won’t do that.” They may be self-deceivers, but they are not so stupid as not to see the tension, the permanent temptation.

Arkat had to fall. If Arkat had not fallen, who would there have been for him to save us from?

[I am not sure this all hangs together, and I am not by conviction an Arkat apologist — I am a ∅ fan, after all — but it is the best I can do for Arkat and the Arkati, this morning.]

[AndreasDavour]

16 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

OK, but he joined Ralzakark's Chaos army. (Then later he killed Ralzakark in a suicidal act.)

What? He did, when?

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, AndreasDavour said:

What? He did, when?

1630, Lords of Terror.

Note that this is the third time he kills (a) Ralzakark.

[Ormi Phengaria]

Arkat was always the Deceiver and Betrayer.

He deceived the Brithini into giving him command of their Horali in the Army of Law by his intimate knowledge of the enemy. He probably introduced the word gbaji into the Western languages. Then he moved past the Law.

He deceived the Seshnegi by first fighting against the krjalki, and then allying himself to them. He moved past humanity.

He deceived the rebel Theyalans by being necessary for the Dawn's return, and then bringing only Darkness. He moved past unity.

He deceived uz by proving himself uzuz, then turning inner light to fire and leaving no hope of solace. He moved past all boundaries.

He deceived chaos by first knowing it, and then becoming it. He stilled his movement.

[Darius West]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:21 AM, Zac said:

If they are Illuminated they should have lost their fear of Chaos. So why are they trying to destroy Chaos? Is it some form of false Illumination?

That's easy to understand... By analogy, cancer the disease isn't morally evil, but that doesn't mean you won't seek medical treatment like surgery to have it removed.  Chaos is the cancer of the goddess Glorantha.  Now take your average Dragon Snail; it is no more evil than any other unintelligent beast. It wants to live according to its instincts like any other animal.  If the dragonsnail rampages through cropland it becomes a threat and the illuminate will kill it.  But now suppose there is a person who is a kindly worshipper of Primal Chaos.  They control the dragonsnail and send it back to the area where the other chaos creatures are, thus averting conflict.  A Stormbull will be honorbound to slay the Primal Chaos worshipper just for their faith, but an illuminate could potentially see that the Primal Chaos worshipper in this instance isn't a threat, and may actually be a valuable friend who can keep dragonsnails from future depredations.  

Now Arkati understand that illumination allows the illuminate to potentially abuse a lot of people's trust if they want to amass personal power.  For example, the illuminate could turn to the worship of Thanatar and use Consume Mind to destroy people to get easy access to skills and magic, and nobody could tell the illuminate was a chaos worshipper.  Such is the temptation of chaos.  The Arkati enforce a strict morality on their members, because illumination makes them otherwise unaccountable, which is potentially a license to riot and become terrible "munchkins" like the God Learners. 

Now Arkati will understand that Chaos can potentially destroy the world, but that doesn't mean that individual chaos creatures are all bad of necessity.  By analogy, one might say correctly that not all Germans in 1940 were pro-Nazi.  That doesn't mean that one accepts or endorses Nazism, it just means you can recognize that morality is complex, and you might not want to kill every German you meet during WW2 even if you are a member of the Allied forces.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Darius West

[AndreasDavour]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

1630, Lords of Terror.

Note that this is the third time he kills (a) Ralzakark.

Thanks. I'm always amazed about these small nuggets of information, that people seem to remember. I've read that book and clearly did not remember that part.

[AndreasDavour]

To add something to the conversation, I think you should not focus too much on illumination and chaos. I've always seen illumination as the sudden realization, a satori moment, that anything is possible. Arkat knew that he could do anything, if he could just twist and turn his perspective just right.

[AndreasDavour]

...and also...

we are all Arkat!