Arkat Cult conflict with Illumination

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The point is, if you join a cult you are subject to the strictures of that cult. If you break the strictures you face the spirit of retribution. Illuminates … can break every cult stricture without suffering what they deserve. 

Cult strictures are not necessarily right — the spirit of retribution of a morally dubious cult might punish the righteous. It is not as if all the cults — even leaving out the Chaos cults — agree on what constitutes right action. So how sure are we about desert?

If you betray the cult, you might have the spirit of retribution sent after you, but surely not every cult will consider power-seeking behaviour beyond the pale. The idea that every cult is both like a super-efficient police state and the upholder of a fine anarchist-egalitarian morality seems to stretch even my credulity … and I am a very gullible person.

And if each cult considers its boss Leviathan, don’t we just shift the conflict up from individuals to groups? That organised crime gangs may punish those who betray them probably doesn’t contribute greatly to the peace and harmony of the world.

• The realities of the world always are in question, and there always are new revelations and perceptions which may alter any being’s outlook on the universe …

  The cult continues to exist because sapients cannot refrain from asking questions about the nature of existence …

  Cultists will tend to shrink from performing or advocating extreme actions of any sort …

  [I]f some cultists recognize, suspect, or receive reports of people asking odd questions or acting in a Socratic manner, they may strike out-of-hand to destroy the incipient Chaos before it spreads.

  It is very dangerous to exploit this cult’s undetectability by joining many different religions and learning their special cult spells. Members of the religions involved will find it questionable and distasteful, say, for a Fire priest to raise zombies, show vampiric powers, or to use strong Darkness spells.

  — Cults of Terror, pp. 84–86

The persecutors of Socrates, is that who we want to be? I would rather corrupt the youth of Athens … which is tricky when one is in witness protection. Still, questions must be asked.

So if you want the power of commanding fire, darkness, and zombies, probably best to join Zorak Zoran. Maybe you don’t get to add vampire stuff, but you won’t be passed the cup of hemlock either.

IIRC, it has been suggested that this was added to the introduction of CoT to placate the Satanic Panic crowd:

• Player Characters should not join these cults. We recommend that Player Characters who join these religions quickly be put to sacrifice by Non-Player-Character priests, to get them out of play.

Although, looking at it again after the passage of decades, suggesting human sacrifice as the solution seems like holding up two fingers to that lot. So let us not have our own moral panic about harmless riddlers — especially not when the in-game charge is led by the most demented of their fellow cultists, “the epitome of the Light Side of Nysalor” (p. 87), they say.

[simonh]

I think Arkati subsume the self to the cosmic cycle of creation and destruction. Their Illumination reveals that the universe is a system that incorporates both law and chaos asymmetrically but in balance. They serve the cycle of existence and nonexistence, and understand that chaos is necessary because for something to exist something else must not. This is the light side of illumination, that the cycle is all, and that change is all.

The dark side of illumination identifies self with cosmos in a different way where personal self is dominant. Dark side illumination doesn't see the cycle for itself, or at least doesn't value it. They take the view that since chaos is part of the cycle and is necessary, that therefore there is no reason why they should not embrace chaos towards their own ends. This is the temptation of chaos, to become an agent of annihilation and ride that road to power, while it lasts.

Arkati understand the role chaos plays, they also understand that the constant struggle between creation and destruction is all. However there is a struggle, law must be opposed by chaos, but chaos must also be opposed by law. The destruction of order, as manifested by civilisation and society may be inevitable, but that does not mean such things have no value. For them there is no neutrality, and so they have chosen their part to play.

Edited October 3, 2023 by simonh

[mfbrandi]

6 hours ago, simonh said:

Arkati understand the role chaos plays, they also understand that the constant struggle between creation and destruction is all.

I do like your Arkati better than what I take to be the official version, but they put me in mind of The Worm Ouroboros, which was probably not your intention.

The Arkati — like Eddison’s “Demons” — if ever they triumph over their enemy, cry, “Rewind Selector — come again!” The cosmic cycle is driven by the struggle and if justified, it is only by the joy of the struggle. Badges of Cosmos and Chaos are picked blind from the bowl, like car keys. The important thing is to have at it.

[Darius West]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:37 PM, mfbrandi said:

Cult strictures are not necessarily right — the spirit of retribution of a morally dubious cult might punish the righteous. It is not as if all the cults — even leaving out the Chaos cults — agree on what constitutes right action.

Right action is determined by the deity.  The worshipper is certainly well appraised about what is expected of them prior to initiation.  Spirits of Retribution are sent by the deity, not the mortal head of the cult.

On 10/3/2023 at 7:37 PM, mfbrandi said:

 The idea that every cult is both like a super-efficient police state and the upholder of a fine anarchist-egalitarian morality seems to stretch even my credulity … and I am a very gullible person.

Deities know what their worshippers are doing because that is what initiation is all about.  You get power, the deity gets to see what you are up to, and you become their agent within Time.  I can't see what is difficult about this?  Why do you think characters spent 1 POW to form a connection with their deity upon initiation?

On 10/3/2023 at 7:37 PM, mfbrandi said:

The persecutors of Socrates, is that who we want to be? I would rather corrupt the youth of Athens … which is tricky when one is in witness protection. Still, questions must be asked.

If Socrates is an initiate of Zeus, the most infamous sex criminal of Mount Olympus, then corrupting they youth of Athens is nothing Zeus will object to.  If Socrates is an initiate of the Judeo-Christian God, who mainly frowns on such things (unless God needs humans to populate a planet via incest), then Socrates has a problem.  Either way the god will know what the worshipper is up to, or else they couldn't answer Divination questions of a personal nature about the initiate, but we know they can.

[Darius West]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:34 PM, Martin Dick said:

The illuminant hasn't hijacked the cult magic,they just now share it and it doesn't make them a superhero (well except Arkat) or even a hero, so a party of equivalent levels is highly likely to be able to discipline one illuminant.

Consider if you will, the egregious munchkinery that you can achieve if you have access to the spell rosters of multiple deities.  At very least, imagine a Stormbull berserker with chaos features. This is what illumination allows.

[mfbrandi]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Right action is determined by the deity.

The god may have an opinion — and enforce it with a big stick — but why suppose that the god’s opinion is correct?

Asking the youth of Athens to think about the nature of the world and the good — that is “corrupting” them.

[Darius West]

3 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

The god may have an opinion — and enforce it with a big stick — but why suppose that the god’s opinion is correct?

Well, that God's opinion is supported by an awful lot more information and power than a human can possibly comprehend.

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Asking the youth of Athens to think about the nature of the world and the good — that is “corrupting” them.

Socrates was charged with a lot more than that.  He was an outspoken anti-Democrat.  He was a supporter of the Thirty Tyrants, the ruthless oligarchic clique who ruled Athens as a puppet state on behalf of deeply fascist Sparta.  Socrates was not only charged with corrupting the youth of Athens, but with failing to acknowledge the gods of the city and with introducing new gods.  Socrates was also the lover of Alcybiades who was famously impious and led Athens in their disastrous Sicilian adventure, who was held up as an Athenian youth corrupted by Socrates.  In short, Socrates was far from a saint.

[Eff]

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

In short, Socrates was far from a saint.

This has to be one of the more interesting forms of in-character posting I've witnessed on a webforum.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Consider if you will, the egregious munchkinery that you can achieve if you have access to the spell rosters of multiple deities.

See Bolthor Hairybreeks who was an initiate of half a dozen or more cults, and moaning about the tithing.

Being a king is good - you become high priest of the kingdom, and your temple pays your standard of living, but you are supposed to tithe your pocket money among the remaining cults.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

At very least, imagine a Stormbull berserker with chaos features. This is what illumination allows.

Storm Bull berserks acquiring a chaos feature is a job risk. Illumination only comes into play if said berserk wants to delay retirement indefinitely.

[davecake]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:30 PM, Darius West said:

Illuminates don't face any spirit of retribution ever, and can break every cult stricture without suffering what they deserve.  THIS is what the Arkati object to.  Illuminates can infiltrate and abuse cults and hero quests with impunity, even chaos cults.

You think the Arkati object to.. acting like Arkat did,  and breaking cult strictures? 
A novel interpretation. But wrong. 
Arkat (obviously) saw nothing wrong with breaking cult strictures. He left the Humakt cult to join Zorak Zoran. 
What the Arkat cult actually objects to is set out quite explicitly in the old Cults of Terror Nysalor write up. Arkat breaks cult strictures in pursuit of his own personal ethical code, a code that despises Chaos and the Nysaloran Dark Side. He takes powers from cults as needed - something that many Humakti regard as a terrible betrayal and abuse.

But a person who joined many Chaos fighting ‘good’ cults because they wanted to accumulate power for its own sake - your Orlanth Wind Lord/Yelm Imperator/Sword of Humakt, and renowned Chaos fighter, might be just as much prey to the Dark Side. 
 

[John Biles]

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

If Socrates is an initiate of Zeus, the most infamous sex criminal of Mount Olympus, then corrupting they youth of Athens is nothing Zeus will object to.  If Socrates is an initiate of the Judeo-Christian God, who mainly frowns on such things (unless God needs humans to populate a planet via incest), then Socrates has a problem.  Either way the god will know what the worshipper is up to, or else they couldn't answer Divination questions of a personal nature about the initiate, but we know they can.

If Socrates was Goranthan, he would 100% be an illumnated initiate of Nysalor.

Asking questions which bring enlightenment / piss people off is his jam.

 

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

You think the Arkati object to.. acting like Arkat did
 

Yes I absolutely DO think that Arkat looked back on what he had done, with the benefit of hindsight, and was sufficiently self reflective to think he had done things he regretted. 

I would go so far as to suggest that Arkat set himself up as the counter-argument in the flesh to everything that Nysalor taught; showing exactly what was wrong with Nysalor's teachings and philosophy.  It was likely the only way he could have defeated Nysalor, as Nysalor could only look at Arkat and despair that everything Nysalor had said was wrong, and horribly abusable.

As a result, I think Arkat realized that the what he had done should not be repeated, and that is why he set up the Arkati in the form they exist. 

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

You think the Arkati object to.. acting like Arkat did
 

Yes I absolutely DO think that Arkat looked back on what he had done, with the benefit of hindsight, and was sufficiently self reflective to think he had done things he regretted. 

I would go so far as to suggest that Arkat set himself up as the counter-argument in the flesh to everything that Nysalor taught; showing exactly what was wrong with Nysalor's teachings and philosophy.  It was likely the only way he could have defeated Nysalor, as Nysalor could only look at Arkat and despair that everything Nysalor had said was wrong, and horribly abusable.

As a result, I think Arkat realized that the what he had done should not be repeated, and that is why he set up the Arkati in the form they exist. 

This may seem hypocritical, but consider.  Is it hypocritical for a drunken uncle who "seems so cool" to advise youngsters not to copy his life choices?  Is it hypocritical for a daredevil stuntman who has broken every bone in his body over his career and is in constant pain but "seems so cool" to advise youngsters against copying his life choices? Sometimes the voice of experience does seem hypocritical, but it doesn't mean that it is, or that its advice shouldn't be heeded.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Darius West

[Martin Dick]

23 hours ago, Darius West said:

Consider if you will, the egregious munchkinery that you can achieve if you have access to the spell rosters of multiple deities.  At very least, imagine a Stormbull berserker with chaos features. This is what illumination allows.

Just wait until we qet the heroquesting rules, then the egregious munchkinery will know no bounds and make illumination just another storm in a teacup, but yes, I agree  illumination does allow for some prime egregious munchkinery, but personally I don't think it's a problem either in terms of illumination or heroquesting. Firstly, because Glorantha has never been balanced and in a world that includes characters like Jar-eel, Harrek, Ethilrist, Argrath, Arkat, the Only Old One, Cwim, Belintar, Ralzakark, the Red Emperor, the Crimson Bat etc. etc. etc., I don't think a bit of access to multiple spell rosters is going to be disastrous. Secondly, because egregious munchkinery in any game system is easily controlled, as the GM I can just say 'No' or more softly, as has been discussed before in this thread, there's a number of different ways of controlling egregious illumination via the societal rules and powers that exist.

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

If Socrates was Goranthan, he would 100% be an illuminated initiate of Nysalor.
Asking questions which bring enlightenment/piss people off is his jam.

He is pretty much the definition of what Storm Bull and company are against:

• [I]f some [anti-Chaos] cultists recognize, suspect, or receive reports of people asking odd questions or acting in a Socratic manner, they may strike out-of-hand to destroy the incipient Chaos before it spreads.
  — Cults of Terror (Classic), p. 86 [emphasis mine]

If we have to choose between eccentric old guys who generate aporia in the agora and the thugs who have taken it upon themselves to murder them, I side with the philosophers every time. And if this hastens the end of the world, the unexamined life was not worth living, anyway.

Do we side with the Arkati or Gully Foyle?

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes I absolutely DO think that Arkat looked back on what he had done, with the benefit of hindsight, and was sufficiently self reflective to think he had done things he regretted. 

I don't think they would argue that Arkat did the wrong thing, but in the total "ends justify the means" that Arkat practiced throughout his career, there's room for "it's regrettable that this had to be done, but it had to be done", even if not "Arkat did bad things".

[Darius West]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:57 PM, mfbrandi said:

He is pretty much the definition of what Storm Bull and company are against:

• [I]f some [anti-Chaos] cultists recognize, suspect, or receive reports of people asking odd questions or acting in a Socratic manner, they may strike out-of-hand to destroy the incipient Chaos before it spreads.
  — Cults of Terror (Classic), p. 86 [emphasis mine]

If we have to choose between eccentric old guys who generate aporia in the agora and the thugs who have taken it upon themselves to murder them, I side with the philosophers every time. And if this hastens the end of the world, the unexamined life was not worth living, anyway.

Yeah, right, because Stormbulls/Uroxi routinely slaughter Lhankor Mhys...  That's sarcasm btw.  And who says that you can't have a Stormbull Philosopher who still hates chaos and illuminates?  I would suggest that it is better to have a properly informed opinion about why such things are dangerous and evil, because they unequivocally are.

[Yēlm-ašarēd]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:57 AM, mfbrandi said:

He is pretty much the definition of what Storm Bull and company are against:

• [I]f some [anti-Chaos] cultists recognize, suspect, or receive reports of people asking odd questions or acting in a Socratic manner, they may strike out-of-hand to destroy the incipient Chaos before it spreads.
  — Cults of Terror (Classic), p. 86 [emphasis mine]

If we have to choose between eccentric old guys who generate aporia in the agora and the thugs who have taken it upon themselves to murder them, I side with the philosophers every time. And if this hastens the end of the world, the unexamined life was not worth living, anyway.

Do we side with the Arkati or Gully Foyle?

I don't know if we can presume that Illuminated philosophers are all eccentric gentlemen who cause a little social disturbance at the agora. Sure, they could be like Socrates, we generally as a society don't have a negative opinion of him. They could also be like Shang Yang, who is notable for his philosophical concepts like instating equality before the law (which is a good thing, but was radical to the Qin nobility), mass slavery through enslaving farmers who failed to meet quotas, forcing peasants to marry at a young age, and a firm belief in Li Kui's idea that people who knew of a crime but did not report it to authorities should be punished exactly the same as the perpetrator of the crime. In ancient China, this punishment could be as severe as clan extermination.

Everything Shang Yang did made rational sense; if you have a manpower shortage, implement policies to make the peasants have more children, he also implemented policies to make Qin a more attractive place to migrate to. If you have a productivity problem, enslave people who can't meet your quotas, and enslave more people to make them work on the farms. That helps prevent famine and keeps productivity high, but I don't think many people here would say that it's a good thing to do that.

Imagine, then, if you had someone like Shang Yang in Glorantha who was Illuminated. What would his solution to a manpower shortage be? I think the discussion in this thread would be close to his solution. But that thread didn't go the full way, because an Illuminate can see past the conflict of Law and Chaos, so he would use magics without regard to its origin, only to its efficacy.

There are many other philosophers I can name whose ideas make sense but are abhorrent, and all of the ones I have in mind are within a similar time frame to Glorantha (bronze age to iron age). Philosophers in the real world can be very dangerous, even if they don't actually kill or harm anyone themselves (Shang Yang is an example of that): philosophers in Glorantha have the ability to be even more dangerous.

To be clear though, I am not arguing for total philosopher extermination, but I will reiterate that these Illuminated philosophers are not all eccentrics. Some of them will be exceedingly dangerous and will know exactly what to say to get other people to agree with them.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:25 AM, Charles said:

• There is some pre-Wakboth Chaos, which is as likely to create as to destroy, and as likely to love as to hate.  I suspect that much of this Chaos is not obvious, or is easily confused with the more ‘evil’ Chaos.

I don’t know of any cases of pre-Wakboth non-awful Chaos that has survived, but this appears to be true of the the two and a half cases of post Wakboth chaos (The Red Goddess, Nysalor and Arket respectively)

On 8/31/2023 at 7:07 AM, Joerg said:

The Red Goddess inflicting her hummingbird, the Crimson Bat, onto her enemies and later her subjects is another such step away from that careful or innocent neutrality that may have been part of Rashoran's lessions.

How is this qualitatively different than the stuff non chaotic cults do? Every cult uses its cult’s allies on its enemies, such as the war trees of the Aldryami and the Founding Ancestors of the Praxins, most simply don’t have options as powerful as the Cult of the Red Goddess.

On 10/9/2023 at 12:29 AM, Darius West said:

Yeah, right, because Stormbulls/Uroxi routinely slaughter Lhankor Mhys...  That's sarcasm btw.  And who says that you can't have a Stormbull Philosopher who still hates chaos and illuminates?  I would suggest that it is better to have a properly informed opinion about why such things are dangerous and evil, because they unequivocally are.

The Telmori and the Puppeteer Troupe are unambiguously evil? Then why did Sartar embrace them when he could have easily excluded these forces from his kingdom? I find it hard to believe that one of Belintar’s best students would fail to notice the inner nature of such things.

Edited October 11, 2023 by FlamingCatOfDeath

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

I don’t know of any cases of pre-Wakboth non-awful Chaos that has survived

They are called plants actually.  They are one of the earliest manifestations of the Primal Plasma that is polluted by the Unholy Trio and becomes the Chaosium.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

They are called plants actually.  They are one of the earliest manifestations of the Primal Plasma that is polluted by the Unholy Trio and becomes the Chaosium.

This message brought to you by Mostal. Mostal - accept no growth, only making.

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This message brought to you by Mostal. Mostal - accept no growth, only making.

Tumors are growths, after all.

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, Darius West said:

They are called plants actually.  They are one of the earliest manifestations of the Primal Plasma that is polluted by the Unholy Trio and becomes the Chaosium.

I had the impression that the Chaosium was named that already when it became the base of the Spike.

Primal Plasma being polluted: surely not the entirety of it, but probably the portion of it carried into Glorantha by Wakboth and minions.