Grain Goddess Pelora and Barley

[Squaredeal Sten]

I have been reading The Earth Goddesses / The Grain Goddesses section. pages 87-95.

I see that "every land area has its own Grain Goddess".  Should I interpret this as meaning that

(1) the worship of each is restricted to her own geographic area, and

(2) therefore the 10% bonus to Bless Crops for Barley (whose Grain Goddess is Pelora) is not available outside Peloria.

(3) and there will be no shrines to Pelora in Earth temples outside Peloria.

It would seem to follow that beer is cheaper and more plentiful in Peloria than in Sartar.  I mesn real beer. not wheat beer. 

(Note that to me,  this does not imply a big long distance trade in beer from Peloria because transporting liquids is hard.)   

A subsidiary question: Do hops exist in Glorantha?

Edited January 19 by Squaredeal Sten
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[Richard S.]

Each land is home to a specific grain goddess, but that doesn't mean it's the only place they can be contacted. They're just the places those grains originated.

You're probably right about barley being cheaper in Peloria, and thus beer. Though I imagine that Ernaldans can learn the specific bless crops spells if they want, since the Grain Goddesses are subcults of Ernalda. There's probably an earth temple or two in Dragon Pass with a barley shrine to support domestic beer making.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Jeff has previously mentioned here that Peloria is beer country, while Kethaela is a wine region. This annoyed some who have long imagined the haughty Dara Happans sipping red while the Sartarites toast in ale, but it DOES make sense when you let it sink in. 

No idea if hops are involved. AFAIK premodern beer can basically range from slightly sour water to basically liquid bread (and consumed like a meal).

[Malin]

Does this mean Peloria is IPA country? Do I have to picture Lunars as beer snobs, with so many varieties of beer, not just with hops, but with all the bitter herbs used in the days before hops became widespread? I mean with the current microbrewery culture I can 100% see them getting into that as much as ever the wine snob...

[Squaredeal Sten]

56 minutes ago, Malin said:

Does this mean Peloria is IPA country? Do I have to picture Lunars as beer snobs, with so many varieties of beer, not just with hops, but with all the bitter herbs used in the days before hops became widespread? I mean with the current microbrewery culture I can 100% see them getting into that as much as ever the wine snob...

Absolutely, that is clearly implied.  

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 1/18/2024 at 1:25 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Jeff has previously mentioned here that Peloria is beer country, while Kethaela is a wine region. This annoyed some who have long imagined the haughty Dara Happans sipping red while the Sartarites toast in ale, but it DOES make sense when you let it sink in. .......

On the other hand wine is likely a high status drink in Peloria, and grape vines will very likely grow there despite the colder climate: After all in the RW they grow in Germany and German wine is very good.  Also, wine can be imported to the heartlands from convenient  places in the empire like Imther, using a short land haul to reach the long river routes. 

In other words if you are a Lunar noble you can afford it. 

Indeed  Clearwine is harder to get in Glamour after the Dragonrise, but the trade is still done.  The empire does not have the structure to stop this trade which fills Argrath's treasury and so pays his army.

 

Edited January 19 by Squaredeal Sten
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[Jeff]

34 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

On the other hand wine is likely a high status drink in Peloria, and grape vines will very likely grow there despite the colder climate: After all in the RW they griw in Germany and German wine is very good.  Also, wine can be imported to the heartlands from convenient  places in the empire like Imther, using a short land haul to reach the long river routes. 

In other words if you are a Lunar noble you can afford it. 

Indeed  Clearwine is harder to get in Glamour after the Dragonrise, but the trade is still done.  The empire dies not have the structure to stop this trade which fills Argrath's treasury and so pays his army.

 

German white wine is very good. Their red wine not so much.

But the climate of the Peloria plains is far more like Wisconsin than it is like Baden. And although I know folk in Wisconsin that tout the 800 acres of grapes grown in the state, it is not exactly all that good. Kind of like Colorado wines.

[Malin]

It makes sense why Dragon Pass is important then. Got to secure good wine for the Red Emperor's parties. He's breaking the bank as it is, might as well cut down on import costs by conquering the vineyards.

Also, the Lodrili as a beer-drinking culture makes so much sense...

[Sir_Godspeed]

43 minutes ago, Malin said:

Also, the Lodrili as a beer-drinking culture makes so much sense...

I bet they take a page from the Sumerians and pay their day-laborers in literal jugs of beer. And someone trying to impose a tax on brewing has caused more than one revolt.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

And someone trying to impose a tax on brewing has caused more than one revolt.

A royal tribute placed on cider and cider brewing was a big factor in my old Imther campaign (following the Imther civil war, so decidedly unpopular).

[Ynneadwraith]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I bet they take a page from the Sumerians and pay their day-laborers in literal jugs of beer. And someone trying to impose a tax on brewing has caused more than one revolt.

Came here to say that considering Dara Happa's inspirations in the early civilisations of the fertile crescent, beer really would fit them perfectly. Lots of inspiration for both Lodrilli and urban Dara Happans there:

• Here's a recipe for Sumerian beer
• Relief showing how it was drunk (not individually from glasses, but from a communal pot in the middle through long straws):

Would make for some very exotic feeling Lunar/Dara Happan drinking establishments.

Side note: I wonder if Pentans smoke weed like real world steppe peoples did (built little wigwam-like structures to hotbox 😄). Or opium (Sumerians again, who called it 'the joy plant'). Hell, our favourite hill-barbarians might have coca leaves...

Edited January 19 by Ynneadwraith

[Squaredeal Sten]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

German white wine is very good. Their red wine not so much.

But the climate of the Peloria plains is far more like Wisconsin than it is like Baden. And although I know folk in Wisconsin that tout the 800 acres of grapes grown in the state, it is not exactly all that good. ....

I prefer white wines most of the time. Therefore my bias.  

Anyway. an eventual Lunar Heartlsnds book should include base prices for various goods that are often different from prices in Sartar.  I'm just getting my request in early. 🙂

 

Edited January 20 by Squaredeal Sten
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[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I prefer white wines most of the time. Therefore my bias.  

Anyway. an eventual Lunar Heartlsnds book should include base prices fir various goods that are often different from prices in Sartar.  I'm just getting my request in early. 🙂

 

In all seriousness, I don't think the Lunar Heartlands raise grapes. Wine is certainly drunk, but is shipped up from the other side of Dragon Pass. 

Here's some old notes of mine:

Lunar Alcohol
For most Pelorians, the drinks of choice are:
Corn beer. Like chicha, this is made in huge earthenware vats and because of its low alcohol content (1-3%) is consumed in vast quantities. Corn beer is often drunk in Lunar celebrations and ceremonies because of its connection with Hon-eel.
Rice wine. Many varieties of rice wine are known in the Lunar Heartlands, with an average alcohol content of 18-25%. Particularly popular in religious festivals for Lodril, the local rice goddess, and Oslira. 
Barley beer and wine. In the Lunar Provinces, Sylila, Karasal, Oronin, and the West Reaches, barley is more important than rice and barley beer and wine are popular. Barleywine is a strong ale, 6-12%. It is considered semi-barbaric by many Heartlanders.
Wheat beer. In the Lunar Provinces, beer made from emmer wheat is popular. It is considered barbaric by many Heartlanders.
Kumis. Nearer to the Redlands, fermented mare's milk is popular. 
It is also drunk by many aristocratic clans.

In the Lunar Heartlands, it is the Lodrilli peasantry and workers that drink heavily. And often. The Yelmites put too much importance on self-control and purity, and drunkenness is seen as a "lower class" thing. Popular beverages include maize beer, barley beer, and fermented rice drinks.

Of course the upper classes drink too, but public drunkenness is considered shameful or embarrassing. And Moonson's notorious indulgences are transgressive and expensive - there is more likely to be hazia and vats of wine at his court than pots of cheap maize beer!

Which also ties into the Lunar ruling class view that the barbarians are basically Lodrilli peasants.
 

Pelorian Food

Rice, barley, and maize are the staple grains, supplemented by millet and various root crops. Fish is the most common domestic meat, followed by pork. Cattle are used mainly to pull plows, while goats are a primary source of milk and meat. Food is flavored with a variety of strong herbs and spices.

[Jeff]

Dragon Pass Alcohol
The most common alcoholic drinks in Dragon Pass are:

Beer. Made from emmer wheat,einkorn, or barley, beer (I am using the term broadly) is the most common drink. Brewing is often associated with the Ernalda cult and most brewers are women. Lots of different varieties and styles.

White wine. White grapes are grown in much of Sartar. It is associated with the Ernalda cult, particularly around Clearwine, and again most wine brewing is done by women. Wine is mainly consumed in religious rituals. 

Corn beer. Popular in Lunar Tarsh, this drink is like chicha and made from fermented maize. Associated with the Hon-eel cult.

Kumis. Fermented mare's milk is popular in the Grazelands. A Praxian variant is popular around Swenstown. 

Troll beer. Don't drink this. Everyone knows troll beers are lethal to humans.

Burned Water (aka Water of Life). The Free Sages of Boldhome have figured out a method of distilling beer and water. It is pricey and largely confined to the wealthy.

 

Drinking in the Holy Country is a lot like in Sartar except:

Most wine is red. And quite good. And also not watered down. Intoxication has divine sanction - we have Ernalda, Orlanth, and Lodril as rolemodels.

Wheat beer is very popular and has a bread-y taste with hints of toasted nuts and grains.

Young wines are popular in Earth Season and are drunk by the farmers (and is popular in the cities).

Violence is less common in drinking halls than in Sartar. Consider it part of Belintar's civilizing legacy.

[Sir_Godspeed]

We can still get the stereotyped "jolly hill barbarian collective feasting"-feel with wine, of course - Greek symposia with their massiv krater tubs of watered wine where people take turns getting their cup in is pretty raucous and lively.

[SDLeary]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Dragon Pass Alcohol
The most common alcoholic drinks in Dragon Pass are:

Beer. Made from emmer wheat,einkorn, or barley, beer (I am using the term broadly) is the most common drink. Brewing is often associated with the Ernalda cult and most brewers are women. Lots of different varieties and styles.

White wine. White grapes are grown in much of Sartar. It is associated with the Ernalda cult, particularly around Clearwine, and again most wine brewing is done by women. Wine is mainly consumed in religious rituals. 

Corn beer. Popular in Lunar Tarsh, this drink is like chicha and made from fermented maize. Associated with the Hon-eel cult.

Kumis. Fermented mare's milk is popular in the Grazelands. A Praxian variant is popular around Swenstown. 

Troll beer. Don't drink this. Everyone knows troll beers are lethal to humans.

Burned Water (aka Water of Life). The Free Sages of Boldhome have figured out a method of distilling beer and water. It is pricey and largely confined to the wealthy.

 

Drinking in the Holy Country is a lot like in Sartar except:

Most wine is red. And quite good. And also not watered down. Intoxication has divine sanction - we have Ernalda, Orlanth, and Lodril as rolemodels.

Wheat beer is very popular and has a bread-y taste with hints of toasted nuts and grains.

Young wines are popular in Earth Season and are drunk by the farmers (and is popular in the cities).

Violence is less common in drinking halls than in Sartar. Consider it part of Belintar's civilizing legacy.

Interesting!

Meade? Is there a Gloranthan analog, or place where it's brewed? Due to the bee association, a Troll beverage, perhaps specific to the Bee Tribe?

And what about cider and perry if they exist?

SDLeary

Edited January 20 by SDLeary
grammar is hard!

[Yazurkial]

Yazurkial says, "Grain goddess? What are you talking about? The Greatlands have no grain goddess. We have Eiritha's blessing, the fine grasses that grow in our best grazing."

Roneer says, "Back in the day before night and the night before days, before the weeping times, the Greatlands were the Greenlands. But the Greenlands were the Giant's own garden. None of his long-haired daughters settled there. This is why there was never grain in the Greatlands."

Yazurkial says, "Roneer, you just made that up. Your face should be as red as your cousin."

Roneer says, "Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on how you look at it. And you always look left. But these are Outlanders. <spits> They won't understand anyway."

Yazurkial says, "True."

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

 

And what about cider and perry if they exist?

SDLeary

Cider clearly exists.  See the Imther book.  Also, see Apple Lane and even the RQG rulebook price list.

 

[Cassius]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

Dragon Pass Alcohol

...

Could we add to this list brandys, liquors and other fruit alcohols, made from apples (like Calvados), pears, plums, etc.? Do distillation techniques exist in this part of the world? At first glance, it seems a Mostali thing.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Could we add to this list brandys, liquors and other fruit alcohols, made from apples (like Calvados), pears, plums, etc.? Do distillation techniques exist in this part of the world? At first glance, it seems a Mostali thing.

In our world, distillation (e.g. of pitch) as a human technology is older than application of yeast to sugary stuff. Distillation of alcohol requires a different technique for cooling the vapors and arrived delayed, probably unavailable in any of the local Bronze Ages except maybe in ancient China.

Glorantha is a postapocalyptic world with many an anachronistic technology or innovation available (such as alphabetic scripts, triremes, or metal coinage, all unknown from archaeological finds in our world's local Bronze Ages even though some of our world's mythical texts might be interpreted as the ancients having had similar tech.

Quicksilver mostali have distillation down pat, and the ones in Dragon Pass even hire out the Alchemical Transformer. The Second Council theninherited Feldichi magical technology, some of which may have survived into the EWF era (or re-discovered).

There is also the possibility of using selective freezing to concentrate alcohol. Dragon Pass winters certainly get cold enough for making Apple Jack.

 

Whether canonical or just YGWV, feel free to add some varieties of liquor to your games. I wouldn't make it a wide-spread technology as the equipment (glassware or metal tubing for capturing and condensating the vapors) would be quite costly. Gustbran and/or Caladra and Aurelion are likely to be patrons of some of that.

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, Cassius said:

Could we add to this list brandys, liquors and other fruit alcohols, made from apples (like Calvados), pears, plums, etc.? Do distillation techniques exist in this part of the world? At first glance, it seems a Mostali thing.

Jeff recently posted in a thread on food and drink, that distilled alcoholic beverages such as brandy exist but are rare and in small quantities, treated as a medicine and not a common drink.  

IiRC, Distilling in the RW may have been used first for perfumes.  We do know  Glorantha has perfume.  Anyway, alchemists can do it according to widespread opinion, see the (not canon)  Book of Doom from JC.

It is canon that Clearwine is turned into ice wine in winter.  I think that is in the GM screen pack adventure book, which is misleadingly named , it is a lot more than the screen.

Note that a copper tube coil for distilling alcohol will poison you if it is not tinned inside.  This is a piece of family lore.  Anyway. such stills appear to be a post Iron Age invention, so are more recent than most of the Iron Age items in Glorantha,'s Bronze Age.  Like muskets, they may be used by the Mostali.