Agentorange Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) Hear me out..... I was reading in the core rules about spirit cults ( which interest me more than the big established cults - Orlanth etc ) and it got me thinking . All the big theistic cults have the full panoply of common Rune spells, their own specific Rune spells and a selection of spirit magic spells. Orlanth for example gives 9. Now Spirit cults are if you like minor or lesser deities, they have a selection of some of the common Rune spells, their own specialist Rune spells ( Black Fang gives 3 )but.....according to core rules there is no mention of Spirit magic spells. Which seems odd to me. I understand that Spirit cults are accessed differently, via shamanic practices rather than theistic ones and shamans of course are deemed to have access to all spirit magic spells. But where do shaman get their spirit magic spells ? it's not like they engage in shamanic initiation , defeat the bad man and PTOOF !! the next second they know all the spirit magic spells in the world. they've got to get those spells from somewhere. And it seems to be me that spirit cults might well be one of those places. Even if we leave that to one side. it is still the case that spirit cults are minor deities ( as it were ) so it seems weird they don't provide any spirit magic spells at all. Edited February 4 by Agentorange Typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Agentorange said: But where do shaman get their spirit magic spells ? See RQG, Benefits of Being a Shaman, Learning Spirit Magic, page 357. 42 minutes ago, Agentorange said: it's not like they engage in shamanic initiation , defeat the bad man and PTOOF !! the next second they know all the spirit magic spells in the world. they've got to get those spells from somewhere. And it seems to be me that spirit cults might well be one of those places. Even if we leave that to one side. it is still the case that spirit cults are minor deities ( as it were ) so it seems weird they don't provide any spirit magic spells at all. They likely know some spirit magic already, now they can get most spirit magic at the rate of one per day. They are likely able to fill their CHA within a week. 42 minutes ago, Agentorange said: Can Spirit cults give Spirit magic/spells ? Yes, for example Hearth Mother teaches Ignite. Edited February 4 by David Scott 1 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, David Scott said: See RQG, Benefits of Being a Shaman, Learning Spirit Magic, page 357. They likely know some spirit magic already, now they can get most spirit magic at the rate of one per day. They are likely able to fill their CHA within a week. Sorry, that's me not being very clear. Certainly that's the game mechanic for acquiring spells. But the spirit world is a big wishy washy timey wimey sort of a place. What guarantee is there that a shaman is ever going to meet a specific spell spirit ? They could spend months wandering around on the spirit plane and never meet a specific spirit. Imagine i and a friend go to the local shopping mall on a busy day before christmas, we start at opposite ends of the mall and just wander around at random looking for each other. we might never find each other. And we want to be found ! Imagine if one of us didn't want to be found......... And that's just one small shopping mall, in a much larger town, in a much larger county, in a much larger country......... I don't see why shaman automatically get all the spells. i could go wandering on the spirit plane...find the Disruption spirit spell ( handy ! it's a keeper ) next day i wander off again...and find ......the Disruption spell. The day after that i go go wandering and find Dark Disruptor which despite it's name is not something from an Ann Summers catalogue but a disruption spell variant that only does 1d2 damage to most people but 1d3+1 to those tied to the darkness Rune... or maybe that's the other way round - maybe it's cast by people tied to the darkness rune and does 1d2 damage to them but 1d3+1 to those tied to light/fire - who can tell 😄 Anyway we're now in real danger of thread creep into a discussion about the nature of shaman - which would be an interesting thing to talk about but deserves it's own thread. So back to the original topic - is it possible or likely that the spirits involved in spirit cults might be able to offer some of the common spirit magic spells albeit in a limited or restricted way ? Thanks for mentioning Hearth Mother - I need to go and have a look at that. where's the reference if you don't mind me asking ? Edited February 4 by Agentorange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 3 hours ago, Agentorange said: What guarantee is there that a shaman is ever going to meet a specific spell spirit ? Spirit Lore and Spirit Travel. This is where Shamanic Traditions come into play. Shamans develop "maps" of the Spirit World. They travel to those places and record (in whatever fashion they prefer), how they got there and what they found. They teach and guide their apprentices through these "maps" so that by the time an apprentice becomes a full shaman, they've gained a solid foundation in these skills. They may know that if they want a Wind Spirit, they need to go to the Great Grazing Land, then listen for the Thunderbird, then follow the trail of the Thunderbird to the Whistling Cave. Or if they want a Mobility spirit magic, they just need to go to the Great Grazing Land, find the Great Herd, and then seek out the Running Hoof spirits who know that know the spell. Quote is it possible or likely that the spirits involved in spirit cults might be able to offer some of the common spirit magic spells albeit in a limited or restricted way ? Yes, of course! No reason they need to be limited/restricted per se - it's really what you want in your game. Maybe you find the Deathstroke spirit and worship it, and it can provide you with Bladesharp 8. Or you find the Fast Running spirit and it offers Mobility and Coordination. As I recall, there were one or two Spirit Cults included in the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha work that only offered spirit magic (fairly unique ones, but certainly an option). Meteor Swarm (in RBoM) was one that came from the Crater Makers. Edited February 4 by jajagappa 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Spirit cults can theoretically teach any spirit magic spell, since their priests are shamans. Rune cults have lists of spirit magic not because they are unique in knowing them, but because those are the only ones their priests usually know and can pass on. Some spirits cults may definitely prefer certain spirit magic spells, and make these more accessible to worshipers, but spirit magic itself is not bound up in cults like Rune magic is - anyone can learn any spell, as long as they can find a teacher. It's also possible that the spirit worshiped by the cult itself knows and can teach spirit magic, or is at least closely connected to other spell spirits, which saves the shaman a trip to find those spells elsewhere. At your discretion, the spirit may be able to teach these spells itself without the shaman as an intermediary - either during holy day ceremonies or in "friendly" spirit combat - which is much faster than the week required by a mortal teacher. 4 hours ago, Agentorange said: The day after that i go go wandering and find Dark Disruptor which despite it's name is not something from an Ann Summers catalogue but a disruption spell variant that only does 1d2 damage to most people but 1d3+1 to those tied to the darkness Rune... I love small spell variations like this. We know that each spirit magic spell is really hundreds of unique charms that all just have similar effects, so it makes sense for there to occasionally be small differences. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Richard S. said: I love small spell variations like this. We know that each spirit magic spell is really hundreds of unique charms that all just have similar effects, so it makes sense for there to occasionally be small differences. Something that's always surprised me is how few spirit magic spells there actually are. When you consider that the spirit world is considered to be pretty much a place of infinite variety it seems unusual that we only have the 60 odd that we do. Now from a game play point of view they all make perfect sense. Consider Fireblade - from a RQ perspective it's great, who wouldn't want 3d6 worth of fiery damage dealing goodness - especially damage that can harm creatures that may be unharmed by non magical means..... From a Gloranthan perspective though ? Well fire deities are very much minor players compared to say the blueskinned storm geezers - yet Fireblade is one of the most potent spirit magic spells there is. I suspect the original battle magic spell list for RQ1/2 was dreamed up as a cool set of spells for RQ gameplay without thinking about the miffical underpinning of it all. Which is is fair enough RQ is a game first and foremost. But from a gloranthan viewpoint some of them do just seem to have been shoe horned in 😁 There should be hundreds of little spirit magic variations like dark disruptor, for example this spell from a local spirit just south of Leaping Place falls on the Zola Fel river.... Water Grace 1 point ranged, Temporal, passive This spell acts in all ways like a Mobility spell doubling the recipients movement except when the recipient is moving through water: swimming, wading, climbing up a cliff through a waterfall etc. in which circumstances it triples their movement. there should be loads of these things everywhere. 👍 Edited February 4 by Agentorange 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 8 hours ago, Agentorange said: Now Spirit cults are if you like minor or lesser deities, they have a selection of some of the common Rune spells, their own specialist Rune spells ( Black Fang gives 3 )but.....according to core rules there is no mention of Spirit magic spells. Which seems odd to me. I understand that Spirit cults are accessed differently, via shamanic practices rather than theistic ones and shamans of course are deemed to have access to all spirit magic spells. But where do shaman get their spirit magic spells ? I think you are confusing Spirit Cults and Shamanic Spirit Travel. Spirit Cults grant Spirit Magic based on the powers and God Time deeds of the Spirit being worshipped. Most Spirit Cults are minor and grant one, or maybe two, Runespells and a few Spirit Magic spells. Quite often the Spirit Cults grant Spirit Magic spells that are not available to other cults, or that are cult special spells in other cults. So, you could have a Spirit Cult that grants Forget or Lantern, even though those are cult special spells for Lanbril and Yelmalio respectively. Worshippers of Spirit Cults can gain the Spirit Magic spells taught by the Spirit Cults fairly easily in my Glorantha. Shamans, however, can travel to the Spirit Plane and can bring back knowledge of Spirit Magic. This is outside of Spirit Cults, and a Shaman could be able to do this without being a member of a Spirit Cult. There is a difference of interpretation of the rules, where some people think that Shamans can bring back any spell, even Cult Special Spirit Magic spells, with ease, and others who believe that it is more difficult for Shamans to access Cult Special Spirit Magic if they don't worship that cult. My view is that Cults keep their Spell Spirits locked away in Spirit Vortices held within their Temples, so it is dangerous for Shamans to access them as they are guarded by cult spirits. 2 1 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, Agentorange said: Something that's always surprised me is how few spirit magic spells there actually are. Have a look at the Book of Doom, as it has a lot more Spirit Magic spells available. 1 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 40 minutes ago, soltakss said: Have a look at the Book of Doom, as it has a lot more Spirit Magic spells available. I have the Book of Doom in all it's PDF and POD glory. A fine body of work if you don't mind me saying so....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 42 minutes ago, soltakss said: I think you are confusing Spirit Cults and Shamanic Spirit Travel. Spirit Cults grant Spirit Magic based on the powers and God Time deeds of the Spirit being worshipped. Most Spirit Cults are minor and grant one, or maybe two, Runespells and a few Spirit Magic spells. It was really this that I was driving at. in the RG core rules all the theistic cults have a selection of Spirit magic spells. Numbers vary of course but generally there's a few. The 2 spirit cults mentioned: Black Fang and Oakfed don't have any listed at all. Which seemed odd to me. and that got me to wondering if they were meant to have any or not. My own feeling is they would do, perhaps spells unique to them or appropriate spells from the common spell list. So Oakfed might well have Ignite and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Agentorange said: Black Fang and Oakfed don't have any listed at all. Black Fang effectively does, but you have to pay the price of worshiping him to get it - he doesn't give away what amounts to a Disruption 4 for subsequently "free" use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 7 minutes ago, jajagappa said: Black Fang effectively does, but you have to pay the price of worshiping him to get it - he doesn't give away what amounts to a Disruption 4 for subsequently "free" use. mmmm...ah.... mmmmm... er it's listed and written up as a Rune spell so I'm going to count it as one 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamesmeister Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) Also take a look at some of Ian Thomson's City of Pavis books, he talks a lot in those, particularly Vol 1 I think, about spirit cults and has many examples of spirit magic in the way you suggest Edited February 4 by Gamesmeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, Agentorange said: it's listed and written up as a Rune spell so I'm going to count it as one Yes, as I noted, Black Fang wants his cut. But from a gameplay perspective, it's a stacked Disruption spell, which means you can use as a model for the types of more unique spirit magic spells that might be available from other, less cutthroat spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 52 minutes ago, Gamesmeister said: Also take a look at some of Ian Thomson's City of Pavis books, he talks a lot in those, particularly Vol 1 I think, about spirit cults and has many examples of spirit magic in the way you suggest This was one of the things that started me mulling the whole thing over. I've got all the volumes in POD and i really like the notion of the cults - even the minor ones having a whole raft of spirit magic spells. Or to be more precise given what Ian has said allied spirits which give spirit magic like spell effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 7 hours ago, Agentorange said: This was one of the things that started me mulling the whole thing over. I've got all the volumes in POD and i really like the notion of the cults - even the minor ones having a whole raft of spirit magic spells. Or to be more precise given what Ian has said allied spirits which give spirit magic like spell effects. There'd be even more variety of magic (even spirit magic) if I wasn't proofing it, and saying "OMGs, that's OP!!!" (because if you compare it to X and Y...) and "Nooo... don't try to create yet another magic system! It'll overload everyone's brains trying to remember the details" (like, POW in mins duration). (however, in saying that, I am eagerly awaiting the new Lunar Sorcery rules! I like the idea of being able to manipulate spirit magic, the way RQ3 had it! Although, realistically, that's just a variation on normal sorcery) He also said the abilities to have a spirit inhabit a body and give an effect was something he and Greg discussed - and decided was a good idea! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said: There'd be even more variety of magic (even spirit magic) if I wasn't proofing it, and saying "OMGs, that's OP!!!" (because if you compare it to X and Y...) and "Nooo... don't try to create yet another magic system! It'll overload everyone's brains trying to remember the details" (like, POW in mins duration). (however, in saying that, I am eagerly awaiting the new Lunar Sorcery rules! I like the idea of being able to manipulate spirit magic, the way RQ3 had it! Although, realistically, that's just a variation on normal sorcery) He also said the abilities to have a spirit inhabit a body and give an effect was something he and Greg discussed - and decided was a good idea! OP ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 14 minutes ago, Agentorange said: OP ? Over-Powered. "You're giving ALL OF THAT for only those few points???" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said: Over-Powered. "You're giving ALL OF THAT for only those few points???" ah ! I should have guessed 👍 Over powered is a difficult thing to gauge sometimes. Imagine two spirit spells each costs 1 MP to cast the first one does 1d3 damage ( it's disruption 😁 ) but the second one does 1d6 damage. is the second one overpowered compared to the first one ? Clearly yes - double the damage for the same cost. But......suppose the 1st one a common one and can be obtained pretty much anywhere as indeed Disruption can be, but the second one involves a long and hazardous trek into Vulture country and the wastelands to seek out an obscure spirit in a cave and that's the only place you can get it ? is it still overpowered. restrict further -the mega disruption only works on trolls, and only in the daylight I ( or should that be yelmlight ) still overpowered ? I've never had a problem with powerful magic....i just roll with the notion of there being a powerful price to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Agentorange said: ah ! I should have guessed 👍 Over powered is a difficult thing to gauge sometimes. Imagine two spirit spells each costs 1 MP to cast the first one does 1d3 damage ( it's disruption 😁 ) but the second one does 1d6 damage. is the second one overpowered compared to the first one ? Clearly yes - double the damage for the same cost. But......suppose the 1st one a common one and can be obtained pretty much anywhere as indeed Disruption can be, but the second one involves a long and hazardous trek into Vulture country and the wastelands to seek out an obscure spirit in a cave and that's the only place you can get it ? is it still overpowered. restrict further -the mega disruption only works on trolls, and only in the daylight I ( or should that be yelmlight ) still overpowered ? I've never had a problem with powerful magic....i just roll with the notion of there being a powerful price to pay for it. Yeah, we discussed those sort of factors. You can still see them in there 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmonger Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 18 hours ago, soltakss said: My view is that Cults keep their Spell Spirits locked away in Spirit Vortices held within their Temples, so it is dangerous for Shamans to access them as they are guarded by cult spirits. IMG, Fire Blade and Fire Arrow were until recently cult-specific spirit magic. They became generally available to independant shamans in the Dragon Pass area following the decommissioning of most Elmal temples. Edited February 5 by radmonger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) On 2/4/2024 at 3:27 AM, Agentorange said: I don't see why shaman automatically get all the spells. The Well has some good clarifications on this (search for learning spirit magic)- https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-15-shamans/#ib-toc-anchor-40 Quote The visit to the spirit world once per day is an abstraction of the whole process on page 374. It assumes that the shaman has a good knowledge of their spirit world, knows their way around and has a good collection of Spirit Vortices. It also talks about restricting spells by size and rarity (based on RBoM page 107), and has a suggestions on how to modify search rolls for finding appropriate spirits. If you want to limit the spells available to a spirit cult, you could say that shamans of that cult only know of Spirit Vortices related to their spirit entity; that would restrict the spells the shamans could teach unless they went on more dangerous trips into the spirit world. Edited February 6 by Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 imo priests of "regular" cult (those who are not shaman) can only teach spirit spell the cult provides (how, I m not sure, see shiningbrow's topic. Are there spirits who are summoned and teach ? are you able to teach a spell you know yourself ? even with a level you don't have/know ? aka you know bladesharp 2, are you able to teach bladesharp 3 ? a mix of all of that ? ... ) in the same way an officiant of a spirit cult is able to teach spirit spell the cult provides BUT, in addition, you may find shaman who are the officiant of a spirit cult (or sometimes of a "regular" cult. And shaman can teach you any spell they may "find" in the spirit world. so for me, in a world where there are entities source of magic (call them gods for the greater ones, powerful entities, spirits, what you want), everything follows the same rules : a) you may "bargain" with an entity as an individual to obtain some magic. (like a shaman, but as usual, there is always another way) b) you can join a cult. The cult may offer/teach any type of magic if you have the permission, by logic (sorcery like LM), by secret ceremony (rune spell and initiation), or just by access to the source (spirit spell) - b1) When this cult is well established, there are temples, hierarchies, process, organization, etc.. The leaders are often focused on the entity they call god, and somewhere lost the ability (or the desire) to work with other entities, spirits, etc.. as the pantheon provides enough to help life. In that case, the only source of spirit spells are from spirit who have a kind of allegiance to the god. - b2) When this cult is secret or just very little, it is called a spirit cult. And sometimes the spirit cult is so little that when the "creator" dies (the one who was the first to "bargain" with the entity), no one is able to join the entity and the cult collapses. As there are very few worshippers/initiates, the only way to honor the covenant is to use shaman path. But even if they are shaman, the can lead secret ceremony (rune spell and initiation) - b3) and sometimes, for any reason*, a well established cult has not forgotten the spirit path. And you will find in its organization an established position (or positions) for shamans, shamans with probably more taboos than "autonomous" shamans, but with easiest and established process to bargain with spiritw who are friendly with the entity. * maybe, a cult has shaman because the pantheon is based on this supreme divinity -like Aldrya, KL, Waha ...- who provides "every thing to survive" (via large spirit magic "offer") and propose just few very specialized/optimized deities in some domain (but not enough domains/deities to cover everything a community need) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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