*How* do Rune levels teach spirit magic?

[Shiningbrow]

Given @Agentorange's post, I thought I'd bring back this topic that's been in my head for a few years.

What's the actual goings-on for when cult Rune levels teach spirit magic?

I ask because of the implications.

When a shaman teaches it (I think... I'd like clarification on this), they call upon a particular spirit they know, who then teaches the student. If this is not how it works, then what's going on?

When the Rune levels teach it....??? I don't think it's really like simply a knowledge or skill thing. They could simply Summon (and Command if necessary???) a cult spirit (however, if that's the case, why can only Rune levels do that, when any initiate automatically knows both spells, as they're both Common).

If it is more like a skill, then what's preventing anyone from teaching it? (even if it needs to be done in a Sanctified area - because again, initiates have access to that as well).

I am presuming that the god isn't actually having anything to do with it - gods don't use or deal with Spirit Magic.

Another implication is - apparently, these Rune levels can teach any spell they know... so, it does appear to be more of a knowledge/skill thing, and again makes me question why only they can teach them.

Similarly, I don't see why most spirit magic spells couldn't be taught by cult spirits, if they happen to know those spells (of course, this will more depend on how you see cult spirits - ancestors and prior initiates makes sense - elementals less so). (I'd presume that a Rune Lord (or priest, if so lucky) could teach any spell that their Allied Spirit knows as well... oddly enough!)

 

I think I'm agreeing with @Agentorange that the obvious way may be the Spell Teaching rune spell... (and even shamans would need to use it... or something??)

 

It seems to be yet another arbitrary rule...

 

(and, please, no "Well, you can have your Glorantha how you want"... that's not an answer. Nor is anything that doesn't address the question, such as pointing to a rule on P xyz that only says what I've already written)

[Agentorange]

Without wishing to rain on your parade i don't think I mentioned the Spell teaching Rune spell😁

But the rest of the post is thought provoking - which is always a good thing 👍

[Runeblogger]

I guess Rune levels summon a cult spirit that knows the desired spirit spell and “teaches” it to the initiate through friendly spirit combat.

That does not explain why Rune levels can only teach spells they know, but usually they will know all cult spirit spells anyway, so it is not that jarring. If it is, I’d just erase that mention from my games.

Edited February 5 by Runeblogger

[radmonger]

I would be surprised if there is a satisfactory answer taking RQ:G rules-as-written.

The rule about all PCs having automatic access to all common rune magic is already an artificial game construct that makes no in-world sense; why does everyone worldwide learn the exact same set of spells? Trying to argue from that rule to other things the PCs could do with those spells is just building taller on shaky foundations.

Ideally a second edition of the rules would split what is currently 'common spells' into 'spells universally learnable', 'initiation powers' and 'rune-level powers'. Summon Colt spirit would be an initiation power, command a rune-level power. Anyone can call for aid, and they will help if they judge the situation needs it. But only those with authority can command a cult spirit to do something they don't want to do.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

Off the top of my head — this may be more than a bit wonky — and trying to preserve the appearances:

• Let us say that rune levels (RLs) “teach” spirit magic by summoning spell-teaching spirits (STSs) to do the heavy lifting.
   
• If an RL has access to an STS for spell x, the RL will learn spell x right away; if an RL doesn’t know spell x, then the RL doesn’t have access to the spell x STS. Those climbing the cult’s greasy pole are power and/or magic hungry, so why wouldn’t they learn a spell if they could — and certainly before they grant it to hoi polloi?
   
• The way things are done is not always the only possible way to do things: it may be possible for initiates to command or entice an STS to do its thing, but still that may be forbidden. It is a way of artificially increasing the power, status, and utility of the rune levels. If you think that mortals — not the gods they worship — run the cults, maybe demarcation violations (initiates acting above their pay grade) are punished by the cult hierarchy by disfellowshipping and setting the cult spirits of reprisal on any initiate showing a bit of initiative (and maybe making a few bucks on the side). If you think the gods run the show, likely the RLs are their favourites, and the gods are enabling their power grab.

This suggests a couple of simple and obvious story hooks:

• The RLs at a temple know a bunch of spirit spells but they can or will no longer teach them — what went wrong? Have the RLs lost power or divine favour? Are they asserting power by withholding magic from their flock? Have the STSs gone missing? What happens when mere initiates attempt to summon the STSs?
   
• Rogue initiates have started teaching spells, violating the rules. Do the PCs participate in the witch hunt, or do they back this protestant or dissenting move by the rogue initiates? Do the gods or STSs care, or are they leaving it to the cultists to sort out among themselves? How does dissenting religion relate to illumination?

Edited February 5 by mfbrandi
story hooks

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

Without wishing to rain on your parade i don't think I mentioned the Spell teaching Rune spell😁

Ooops - sorry... I was doing some post searching, and obviously confabulated your posts with others...

[French Desperate WindChild]

imo, but just ... imo

 

1) We know that shaman "teach" spirits spell via spirits. So the process should be "ask to someone who can order specific  spirits to teach (or implant in) you the spell"

2) Maybe it is not all the spirits but only some specifics who have the ability to implant some knowlegde. I would say that the spirits are "spirit teachers" (or teacher spirits ? hey you are my english teacher @Shiningbrow, it is up to you 😛 )

3) Rune levels have an authority initiate don't have (delegation from the big boss, aka the god). So they can order things others can't. In our case, command a "spirit teacher"

4) then I transform "they can teach any spell they know" in "they can order any spirit they know to teach the spell the spirit can teach"

 

 

the point 1) allows to consider there is only one way to learn a spirit spell, whatever the "school/tradition/cult" you follow. And this way is spirit teach, not mundane people

the point 2) allows to consider that is not because you meet someone (dryad, allied spirit, anything... ) that you can learn from them a spirit spell. Maybe, maybe not. The spirit must have the ability to teach a spell. It allows however a spirit (dryad, allied spirit,anything...) to teach some spells and not others

the point 3) is just another example of what means hierarchy. The question is not what you can do technically, but what you are allowed to do. So summon if you want, but if you cast  your divine spell to command something you don't have the right to do, the cult spirit will refuse (or the god will refuse to "cast" the command spell).

the point 4) is just what orangutan has teached me : "if you are not comfortable on your feet, use your hands"  (or maybe "use your feet when your hands are not confortable" my level in orangutan is worse than my english) In all cases it works !

 

but that's not what you are looking for, right ? you want official answer 😛

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Another implication is - apparently, these Rune levels can teach any spell they know... so, it does appear to be more of a knowledge/skill thing, and again makes me question why only they can teach them.

According to the official corrections:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-cults/#ib-toc-anchor-38
(search "spell teaching")

Quote

Rune priests, lords and god talkers may teach any cult spells that are listed under Cult Spirit Magic

Edited February 5 by PhilHibbs

[Jens]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

According to the official corrections

Which is later contradicted in that same document-

Quote

Can a priest teach a spell that he knows if it is not a cult spell?

Yes, it says any spirit magic spell.

This seems wrong as it sets up a situation that a priest can not teach a cult spirit spell, but can teach a non-cult spell.

If you don’t know the spell, you can’t teach it.

Along with the switch to using CHA to determine how many spirit magic spells you can learn, there has been an overall shift to the description of how spirit magic works in RQ:G. It's not learning a formula, like you do with Sorcery; instead you attract a spirit helper that from then on causes the magical effect. To quote Jeff-

Quote

Spirit Magic: Nearly universal, this is the use of spirits to affect the mundane world

To bring this back to the subject of rune levels teaching spirit magic spells, it would then seem that in RQ:G RAW, Rune Lords and Priests learn the secret of how to reproduce any spirit helpers they themselves have attracted, and attach them to a student. Whether this is part of their training, or a benefit of being blessed by their God, is unclear, as is whether anyone else (other than a shaman) can learn to do the same.

[g33k]

17 hours ago, radmonger said:

... The rule about all PCs having automatic access to all common rune magic is already an artificial game construct that makes no in-world sense ...

IMO nobody actually "knows" Rune spells:  they are channeling an ability of their God, who has granted access to that specific ability.

Most deities provide a sort of "utility" access for a broad suite of abilities -- called the "Common" Rune Spells -- to all their followers.

[Akhôrahil]

In RQ3, the priest summoned a Cult spell teaching spirit that the follower got to beat up and learn the spell from. This would explain both how it’s done and why only Cult spells can be taught (if that’s the case), while a Shaman could summon any Spirit for teaching purposes but they might not be softballs the way friendly teaching spirits are.

Even if you don’t beat up the spirit any longer, it perhaps still needs to be summoned, which would explain a rule about non-Shaman priests only being able to teach Cult magic.

[PhilHibbs]

17 hours ago, Jens said:

Which is later contradicted in that same document-

Hm. I'm not keen on that.

So getting back to the original question...

On 2/5/2024 at 8:50 AM, Shiningbrow said:

What's the actual goings-on for when cult Rune levels teach spirit magic?

I ask because of the implications.

...

(and, please, no "Well, you can have your Glorantha how you want"... )

Looks like there isn't going to be an answer. I could say how it works in my Glorantha, but that's not what you want. I would be inclined to say that the "Yes, it says any spirit magic spell" is just based on a literal reading of the text, but one of Scotty's specialist subjects is shamanism.

In my Glorantha, if a Rune Master manages to somehow learn a secret spell of another cult, for example Chalana Arroy's Sleep, they can't just teach it to anyone.

Edited February 6 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

Just to throw a spanner into the works, in the Lightbringers book, it states that LM priests can actually teach any spirit magic spell they know...  although it's an explicit, and not a general, it would suggest that the spell teaching by cults is not done by summoning a cult spirit.

 

21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even if you don’t beat up the spirit any longer, it perhaps still needs to be summoned, which would explain a rule about non-Shaman priests only being able to teach Cult magic

In one respect, yes. But, Initiates have access to the same spells, and thus should be able to Summon and Command to also learn those spells (and, for that matter, to put them into a binding!)

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Looks like there isn't going to be an answer. I could say how it works in my Glorantha, but that's not what you want.

True - although, TBH, that line was more directed towards Chaosium official staff.

I am curious as to how others do it (if it's not handwaved).

[PhilHibbs]

Adding a little more detail to "In My Glorantha"...

It is done with cult spirits, and so they are limited to cult spells, but rune masters don't need to explicitly summon and command them. Cult spirits naturally come and go around temples and shrines, and the rune masters can instruct a cult spirit to teach a spell to an initiate.

Is it strictly and literally limited to only the ones listed in the book? No. There is regional variation, and some rune masters may have relationships with spirits that they have encountered on heroquests, or have a knack for spotting which spirits might have access to an unusual spell. But if they got a spell from a shaman or another cult as a special favour, or they tore it from the shattered mind of a poor victim, they can't just teach that to anyone.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:27 AM, radmonger said:

.....

Ideally a second edition of the rules would split what is currently 'common spells' into 'spells universally learnable', 'initiation powers' and 'rune-level powers'. Summon Colt spirit would be an initiation power, command a rune-level power. ...

 

 

A disadvantage of doing so is that it would actually reduce the Rune magic capability of all initiates and higher.  The max number of personally usable rune spells is now (count of common) + CHA but if you make that change it is simply CHA.

I do agree with you that the answer to the OP's question is not in the rules as written.

One concept that appeals to me is that there is a lot of cult magic that is not in the Adventurer oriented spell lists.  Examples include

[1] what EXACTLY is done to let heriquesters cross over to the hero plane or the god plane, as well as

[2] what exactly is done to teach rune magic and spirit magic. 

[3] Another example that comes to mind is what exactly is done by the priests of Caladra and Aurelion to cause volcanoes to erupt: This capability is in the cult history given in the Earth Goddesses book, but no spell is listed for it.

In all those cases one thing that comes to mind is a large ceremony powered by more worshippers than you will find in any gaming group of Adventurers.  So it is not provided in the rules because it doesn't make an enthralling game session that will involve the whole party and center on the players' characters.   

And yes I can think of exceptions to that, either a playing group of all Rune levels, or plans to make organizing such a ceremony part of a game session filled with graphic descriptions of the ceremony.  Several people on this forum are very capable of writing such an adventure.

 

Edited February 11 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling: Caladra has no K

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

A disadvantage of doing so is that it would actually reduce the Rune magic capability of all initiates and higher.  The max number of personally usable rune spells is now (count of common) + CHA but if you make that change it is simply CHA.

Not if they are automatically acquired, which is how I read the proposal.

[Jens]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The max number of personally usable rune spells is now (count of common) + CHA but if you make that change it is simply CHA

It's only your Rune Point pool (per cult) that is restricted by your CHA- while the normal way of learning a rune spell is to sacrifice a point of POW and both increase your pool while learning a new spell, it is possible to learn a new rune spell without increasing your rune points, and vice versa.

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:25 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

A disadvantage of doing so is that it would actually reduce the Rune magic capability of all initiates and higher.  The max number of personally usable rune spells is now (count of common) + CHA but if you make that change it is simply CHA.

p.275:

Quote

At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access
to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional
service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per
point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s
goals and standing.

No need to increase your RP pool to learn a new spell.

Hm. I can't actually find the rule that says that you can increase your RP pool by sacrificing a point of POW. Where is that?

Edited February 9 by PhilHibbs

[Jens]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can't actually find the rule that says that you can increase your RP pool by sacrificing a point of POW. Where is that?

Page 313 of the core rules-

Quote

At the end of the week, the adventurer sacrifices 1 or more POW points and gains an equal number of Rune points.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 2/7/2024 at 4:26 PM, Jens said:

It's only your Rune Point pool (per cult) that is restricted by your CHA- while the normal way of learning a rune spell is to sacrifice a point of POW and both increase your pool while learning a new spell, it is possible to learn a new rune spell without increasing your rune points, and vice versa.

That surprises me.  How so?  Page reference or example?

[g33k]

8 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That surprises me.  How so?  Page reference or example?

Just upthread, @PhilHibbs quotes pg. 275 & @Jens quotes p. 313

Are you looking for something other than these?

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Just upthread, @PhilHibbs quotes pg. 275 & @Jens quotes p. 313

Are you looking for something other than these?

P.275 says a lot of things. but as I read it none of them is a method for learning rune spells without gaining a rune point by sacrificing a POW point.

p.313 "Gaining Rune Magic Spells" goes on to p.314, in which I see "For each point of POW sacrificed, the Adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell".

These seem to support my point that if you do away with free access to common Rune spells, and you still  require that the formerly common spells  must be learned like the cult special Rune magic, the CHA limit will apply and the count of usable spells will be reduced.  Of course you could change that by making further unspecified rules changes, but so far those are unspecified and so are their implications.

 

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

P.275 says a lot of things. but as I read it none of them is a method for learning rune spells without gaining a rune point by sacrificing a POW point.

"At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing." (added bold'ing for emphasis)

Given that we already know the POW-sac method (which mentions none of these) and that this section does not mention POW-sac, it looks pretty clear that these are indeed methods for gaining a Rune Spell without the POW-sac or increasing the Rune Pool.

 

Upon re-reading the citation from p.313, I agree that @Jens has taken that 1 sentence out of context; the passage does not support gaining Rune Points without also gaining Rune Spells.

However for some minor Cults -- that only have very-short lists of Cult Special spells -- it IS possible to continue POW-sac'ing and raising your Rune Pool, even though you gain access to no new spells (this is on p.314).

If a player wanted to do this for larger cults (POW-sac, increase Rune Pool, but not gain an available spell) I would ask "why???" (I smell character-motivation & story hooks!) and would likely allow it.  However, it seems clear that the intent & expectation of the RAW is that each point of POW-sac will both increase the Rune Pool and give access to any one Cult Special Rune Spell.
 

Edited February 10 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:26 PM, Jens said:

It's only your Rune Point pool (per cult) that is restricted by your CHA- while the normal way of learning a rune spell is to sacrifice a point of POW and both increase your pool while learning a new spell, it is possible to learn a new rune spell without increasing your rune points, and vice versa.

I agree however I would precise (or we disagree 😛 )

 

1) rune point pool (per cult) is restricted by your CHA

2) to learn a special rune spell you must sacrifice 1 POW to your deity - even if the spell is 2RP 3RP: learning = 1RP)

3) when you sacrifice 1 POW to your deity , you increase your RP by 1 (with the limit of CHA), the only exceptions I see are the mandatory sacrifice for ceremony and enchantments

4) the first POW you sacrifice during your initiation allows you to learn all the common spells (at least those offered by the cult) AND 1 special rune spell.

 

so

- if you learn a rune spell, you lose 1 POW. If your RP is equals to your CHA, this POW sacrifice offers only the knowledge of the spell but no RP increase

- once you have learn all the spells, you can continue to sacrifice POW to increase your rune pool (with the limit of CHA) --> i m not sure in core rules, but at least in Q&A in this forum

 

but in fact, if you want, you can sacrifice POW to increase your RP, without learning spell . There are several reasons:

- not all temples are able to teach alle the spells, so we are facing the situation of "once you have leanr all the spells" [you have access] " you can continue to sacrifice POW"

- because the last not known spells are "forbidden" for this character: For example a weirdos Orlanth adventurer who suffers acrophobia or swore to never fly years ago, will not learn how to fly, that doesn't mean he is not devotee to his god

- or just by player decision, ok it is not "efficient" but if a player want to, I allow it of course.

 

and you can sacrifice POW without increasing you RP, without learning any spell, just because... you want (devotion, etc..)