Ransomees and their Equipment

[Snork]

So the PCs have captured a bunch of Wolf Pirates mainly through the actions of their Shaman's Dehori (darkness spirit)

The Wolf Pirates were incapable when disarmed then surrendered.

The Wolf Pirates will be ransomed. The question I have what's the usuaul custom with equipment would it be returned or kept as war booty?

[metcalph]

I suppose if you want to keep something from the Wolf Pirates, they might feel entitled to a reduction in the ransom offered and then go after you to retrieve the item that you took.

[Snork]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I suppose if you want to keep something from the Wolf Pirates, they might feel entitled to a reduction in the ransom offered and then go after you to retrieve the item that you took.

I was interested on the customs about ransom in general. Do you give them their equipment back?

The repercussions from the Wolf Pirates are a different matter

[Godlearner]

The answer from the internet seems to be:  "the specific outcome would depend on the terms negotiated between the parties involved and the prevailing customs and practices of the time."

Seems like it would depend if the party is ok with having Wolf Pirates upset at them.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, ajs said:

I was interested on the customs about ransom in general. Do you give them their equipment back?

You might need to keep it as collateral. Wolf pirates getting caught may have trouble convincing their captain and crew they are worth their ransom.

[Squaredeal Sten]

I would think the ransom would be higher for person + equipment, lower for just the person.  Maybe In  negotiations you would hear "well if that's too high for you then 300L for just his equipment and we'll sell him to the Morokanth."  

But ransom for Wolf Pirates is undefined at best.  They are basically bandits. who have no ransom in the RQG rules book.  If you want them to have ransom in your Glorzntha then feel free.

We could really stand for someone to write a Wolf Pirates book, if they have a clear vision of the Pirates.

.

 

[Snork]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But ransom for Wolf Pirates is undefined at best.  They are basically bandits. who have no ransom in the RQG rules book.  .

.

 

 The Wolf Pirates are written about in ways which means they are much more than bandits see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/wolf-pirates/

[Rodney Dangerduck]

OP asks n excellent question: Totally ignoring the Wolf Pirate aspect, what is the custom regarding equipment when ransoming generic enemy soldier. 

Note that in many cases their equipment, say a magic crystal, may be worth as much as or more than the ransom itself.

[svensson]

I thought about that for my Glorantha. What I came up with is this:

- Prisoners are disarmed when captured, keeping only the clothes on their backs.

- Prisoners who don't want to be sold as slaves are VERY quick to tell their captors where their ransom can be had.

- The price of ordinary gear [normal armors, non-magical weapons, non-magical jewelry plus wear-and-tear] is deducted from the ransom demand and a neutral messenger is then sent off with the ransom demand.

- Once the required ransom is paid, the prisoner is released with a letter or rune-stick saying that they have been honorably ransomed and are not subject to recapture unless they commit a crime. Oftentimes a member of the captor group will accompany the former prisoner to the frontier.

- Any heirloom items captured with the prisoner are returned to them when they reach the border. If necessary, magical investigation will confirm an item's provenance.

- It is customary to provide a released prisoner 'three days sustenance' [anything from 'bread and water' to high quality meals with wine and treats] for their travel.

[Geoff R Evil]

Good rules @svensson  although you don’t discuss what happens to magic items and other loot. In my view, that’s all lost to the captors. I like heirloom items being returned, that seems honourable, and ransom only works between honourable combatants really.

of course keeping lots of valuable gear means it’s probable the captive will return once ransomed if they can.

Also you assumed salvers is likely … many do not support slavery. But that does not mean someone is not kept as a thrall, a low grade non combatant honour bound to serve their captors in return for food heat and shelter. A degrading role that many would pay their ransom to get out of.

[svensson]

49 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Good rules @svensson  although you don’t discuss what happens to magic items and other loot. In my view, that’s all lost to the captors. I like heirloom items being returned, that seems honourable, and ransom only works between honourable combatants really.

of course keeping lots of valuable gear means it’s probable the captive will return once ransomed if they can.

Also you assumed salvers is likely … many do not support slavery. But that does not mean someone is not kept as a thrall, a low grade non combatant honour bound to serve their captors in return for food heat and shelter. A degrading role that many would pay their ransom to get out of.

Thanks for the compliment.

Every clan knows of a clan that keeps slaves or thralls. I differentiate the two because slaves are usually kept forever, but Anglo-Saxon and Norse customs had war captives who would serve as menials for several years [customarily 5 or 8] and then they would be released either as freemen in the steading or to go home as the Gods allowed. I've chosen to keep that custom IMGU.

Something else should be said... Glorantha has no 'John Browns' and clans that don't keep slaves are not Abolitionists [in the US historical sense]. They don't keep slaves or thralls for ancestral and mystical reasons themselves, but nothing whatsoever prevents them from doing business with those clans that do. What's more, what is a clan supposed to do with a captive whose people can't or won't ransom him? Turn him loose on the countryside? That just adds to the bandit population. Forced labor for no wages is a fact of life in Glorantha, though the clan system usually [but NOT always] directs that forced labor into project that benefit the whole clan.

Remember, a major battle with lots of prisoners can *beggar* a clan and all their cash reserves just getting the nobles, thanes, and priests out of durance vile, and while a simple carl-ranked fyrdman might have 'x' number of Lunars 'on account' at his temple, if the temple is flat broke after getting a Rune Priest and two Rune Lords out of captivity, that carl is gonna have to wait a year or more while the temple's treasury refills itself.

Edited March 1 by svensson

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

- The price of ordinary gear [normal armors, non-magical weapons, non-magical jewelry plus wear-and-tear] is deducted from the ransom demand and a neutral messenger is then sent off with the ransom demand.

- Once the required ransom is paid, the prisoner is released with a letter or rune-stick saying that they have been honorably ransomed and are not subject to recapture unless they commit a crime. Oftentimes a member of the captor group will accompany the former prisoner to the frontier.

Usually the payment will be brought by a neutral messenger (usually of the Issaries cult, possibly Argan Argar or Etyries) who will usually be tasked with returning the ransomed prisoner, too.

People in the ransom trade shouldn't ordinarily be targeted, as that would ruin the ransom business for all others involved.

 

Loss of equipment due to captivity is a major issue for players, especially if that equipment includes bound spirits or an attuned crystal. Are there conventions for ransoming back personal or community-owned equipment? Imagine your party in a situation where they need to offer ransom while carrying the Black Spear of the Colymar?

[radmonger]

9 hours ago, svensson said:

What's more, what is a clan supposed to do with a captive whose people can't or won't ransom him?

The existence of the Lightning spell mean keeping unwilling Orlanthi captive requires disproportionate effort; you have to have more guards than prisoners, 24/7, and never allow unsupervised access to the open sky or a storm. This is never going to be economically viable. There is exotic slavery magic that can do so, some imported from Fonrit, but all Orlanthi consider that explicitly chaotic.

Most prisoners are on honor system, backed by the fact that if they escape they will likely be recaptured. And physically escaping without paying ransom doesn't void the debt, which would then have to be reclaimed by other means. So what happens to those whose ransoms are not paid?

If they are sold, it will be to Morokanth, who will convert them into herd beasts and ultimately eat them; this is not chaotic. Or, pre-Dragonrise, to the Lunars, who are, but what can you do?

They might just be killed, if no-one present is their kin. Unless the captives are from far away, or there has been a bitter feud for a generation, there will almost always be some second cousins' wife that would render this option chaotic.

They may adopt them into the clan, especially if they can attract a husband or wife. Serving a term as a year-wife/bedhusband would count. Without a spouse, their status would likely be that of a thrall, as they own no property. Not every clan is generous or rich enough to support those who have nothing to offer but their labor.

They might be returned to their clan, as a public act of generosity for which a favor will be owed.

They might pay cult membership fees for an Asrelian mine work gang, knowing the Earth has dire punishments for those who desert her. This is the one that is closest to chattel slavery, and some Orlanthi consider it suspect. Queen Samastina may have recently reformed it, or have plans to do so that require the PCs help.

Or they might be given directions to the nearest dangerous ruins, and made to swear an oath, possibly magically backed; return with payment, or not at all.

Some of these would count as slavery or forced labor under modern law. But not to the Orlanthi, to whom violence is always a legitimate option. So a debt incurred by someone else using violence better must be honorably settled. Even magic, like a Humakti Oath, used to enforce such payment is not chaotic.

 

 

 

 

[svensson]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Usually the payment will be brought by a neutral messenger (usually of the Issaries cult, possibly Argan Argar or Etyries) who will usually be tasked with returning the ransomed prisoner, too.

People in the ransom trade shouldn't ordinarily be targeted, as that would ruin the ransom business for all others involved.

 

Loss of equipment due to captivity is a major issue for players, especially if that equipment includes bound spirits or an attuned crystal. Are there conventions for ransoming back personal or community-owned equipment? Imagine your party in a situation where they need to offer ransom while carrying the Black Spear of the Colymar?

1. The herald/messenger [hereafter 'herald'] can be of any one of several acceptable cults, so long as that cult emphasizes Law, Communication, Truth or Honor. IMGU, the symbol for someone approaching for parlay is a white baton about 2 ft. in length. This came from stripping the bark from a handy branch [symbolizing taking one's armor off] and tying a strip from a bandage or a healer's robe to it. Naturally, heralds approach unarmed and are given all honors and safe passage.

For some cults, being 'unarmed' is a matter of some discussion. A Humakti makes a fine herald, but he approaches with his sword bound into the scabbard by white cordage and the weapon carried over the arm so as to be difficult to draw. Orlanth worshipers will symbolically disarm by handing their weapon to an assistant or squire before approaching. Thus are religious oaths and honor equally maintained.

2. It is a VERY bad idea to capture or kill the herald. Doing so makes every single person of your clan or unit an outlaw to the opposing party and will see your people sold into slavery or simply killed on the spot for convenience's sake. What's more, such actions will severe repercussions long after the war is over. Heralds and merchants are most often members of the same cults, and what merchant of Issaries will bring goods to a clan that murdered a herald in the execution of his office? And how do you think YOUR merchants will get treated if you murder a herald, hmmm?

3. As for magic items, most magic items are of the hedge magic variety... spirit magic focii, power crystals, etc. Some magic items are considered heirlooms and can either be returned or bargained for. Allied Spirit vessels are always returned, but items with bound spirits, attuned crystals, etc. might be bargained for over and above the costs of freeing the captive's person. Some items of legendary provenance [tempered iron gear or Black Spear of the Colymar, for example] will fetch a ransom price FAR exceeding that of the person who lost it. And while few people like it, some of these legendary items are NOT ransomed and are kept as a trophy by the victors. This naturally engenders a lot of hard feelings and oaths of vengeance, but it's considered an accepted as a risk of war.

4. Some items like known clan treasures [a Bag of Winds or a Gustbran's Bellows, etc.] will only be taken by an enemy in a genocidal war, which HAS happened in Sartar's and the Lunar Empire's past. This includes capturing and possibly slaying or breaking the physical form of the clan wyter. But this is a rare case of 'erase your entire bloodline' type warfare.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

The existence of the Lightning spell mean keeping unwilling Orlanthi captive requires disproportionate effort; you have to have more guards than prisoners, 24/7, and never allow unsupervised access to the open sky or a storm. This is never going to be economically viable. There is exotic slavery magic that can do so, some imported from Fonrit, but all Orlanthi consider that explicitly chaotic.

Most prisoners are on honor system, backed by the fact that if they escape they will likely be recaptured. And physically escaping without paying ransom doesn't void the debt, which would then have to be reclaimed by other means. So what happens to those whose ransoms are not paid?

If they are sold, it will be to Morokanth, who will convert them into herd beasts and ultimately eat them; this is not chaotic. Or, pre-Dragonrise, to the Lunars, who are, but what can you do?

They might just be killed, if no-one present is their kin. Unless the captives are from far away, or there has been a bitter feud for a generation, there will almost always be some second cousins' wife that would render this option chaotic.

They may adopt them into the clan, especially if they can attract a husband or wife. Serving a term as a year-wife/bedhusband would count. Without a spouse, their status would likely be that of a thrall, as they own no property. Not every clan is generous or rich enough to support those who have nothing to offer but their labor.

They might be returned to their clan, as a public act of generosity for which a favor will be owed.

They might pay cult membership fees for an Asrelian mine work gang, knowing the Earth has dire punishments for those who desert her. This is the one that is closest to chattel slavery, and some Orlanthi consider it suspect. Queen Samastina may have recently reformed it, or have plans to do so that require the PCs help.

Or they might be given directions to the nearest dangerous ruins, and made to swear an oath, possibly magically backed; return with payment, or not at all.

Some of these would count as slavery or forced labor under modern law. But not to the Orlanthi, to whom violence is always a legitimate option. So a debt incurred by someone else using violence better must be honorably settled. Even magic, like a Humakti Oath, used to enforce such payment is not chaotic.

 

1. Those held captive for ransom are under an honor system to not attempt escape while their ransom is being negotiated. Sometimes that honor system is reinforced by an Oath spell. Captives will be assigned a minder of appropriate rank to keep the captive from sensitive areas. Particularly unruly captives [Uroxi for example] might be restrained or kept in some kind of cell or root cellar. And there is always the option of the magical slave collar that bleeds magic points and does not allow the use of Rune Points.

2. Among Heortlings it is a particularly vile dishonor to sell humans to the Morokanth. Such a sale not only dishonors the captive, but also the seller. Doing such a thing promotes a particularly evil reputation and is the kind of thing that'll get your own clansmen killed out of hand. Sartarites say, "Better a Lunar slave than a herd-man!"

It should be noted that Praxians don't have such sensibilities and if a tribal brave can't afford to keep a slave for his own use, he'll sell the slave to the highest bidder, morokanth or no. Only the Agimori Men-and-a-Half keep no slaves whatsoever on the Plains.

3. Some races don't take captives at all. The dragonewts, Dwarfs who are not Openhandist heretics, many Uz tribes and so forth don't take captives. Among Aldryami, it really depends on how well that forest group knows human customs and how much the ransomee despoiled the forest.

4. Yes, some clans occasionally make peace by releasing their captives in return for a favor or several. This is widely considered 'ransom without coin' and is part of negotiation process.

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

2. It is a VERY bad idea to capture or kill the herald. Doing so makes every single person of your clan or unit an outlaw to the opposing party and will see your people sold into slavery or simply killed on the spot for convenience's sake. What's more, such actions will severe repercussions long after the war is over. Heralds and merchants are most often members of the same cults, and what merchant of Issaries will bring goods to a clan that murdered a herald in the execution of his office? And how do you think YOUR merchants will get treated if you murder a herald, hmmm?

Alll of that applies to an intermediary sent to you, but not necessarily to an intermediary to ransom someone else from someone else, or returning with ransomees. Are such folk ethically taboo to rob?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

If they are sold, it will be to Morokanth, who will convert them into herd beasts and ultimately eat them; this is not chaotic. Or, pre-Dragonrise, to the Lunars, who are, but what can you do?

I think only members of Waha's Covenant can be subject to this (expensive) spell. And Morokanth don't even like meat that much, they are ritually obliged to eat it. The rune point economy suggests this only happens if the seller pays for the magic to be used.

(Which makes me wonder: can a person butchered subject to Alter Creature be contacted as an ancestor?)

According to David Scott, Morokanth are a typical intermediary to return ransomees between Praxian parties, as they are known to keep their human-shaped companions healthy.

[svensson]

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Alll of that applies to an intermediary sent to you, but not necessarily to an intermediary to ransom someone else from someone else, or returning with ransomees. Are such folk ethically taboo to rob?

1. The herald, whichever clan they might belong to, is acting as the agent of the clan holding the prisoners. For just a cattle-raid, there's no real need for a neutral party as herald. Everybody on each side knows everyone and a visit by someone bearing the herald's baton means an official message have come, either notifying next of kin of a death or notifying the clan chief or temple that their people are being ransomed.

In certain circumstance, between parties where there is a history of hatred for example, a neutral herald is pretty much required. Asking someone from another clan to act as the neutral herald is a favor in KoDP terms.

2. The perception of the Morokanth as slave owners really does depend on whether one is of Waha's Covenant or not. Many, perhaps most, Praxians may not like Moros much, but they are accepted presence on the Plains and have a role under the Covenant. Heortlings are not nearly so blase' about it. Because they are not part of the Covenant, many Heortlings are not taught the details of the  Moro's role on the Plains. They thereforebelieve that Moros will turn them into animals the minute they get a hold of a person. Because of that, many Heortlings would prefer death to being reduced to cattle.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

They might just be killed, if no-one present is their kin …
[but] there will almost always be some second cousin’s wife that would render this option chaotic.

I would hope that in the absence of the second cousin’s wife, the quiet person who lives at the edge of the village and tries to avoid clan politics (as the continuation of war by other means) would pipe up at this point. “Surely all men are are sisters and every mortal a cousin. Please, think again.” But maybe they were lynched years ago as a likely Chaotic/illuminate/closet White Moonie.

A judgement from the local Orlanthi jurist that an action is not Chaotic is not a “get out of sin free” card. There are other transgressions than Chaos.

[svensson]

58 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

 

A judgement from the local Orlanthi jurist that an action is not Chaotic is not a “get out of sin free” card. There are other transgressions than Chaos.

Absolutely!

Heortling society is afflicted with every one of mankind's sins and it has nothing whatsoever to do with 'Chaos' per se. People murder, steal, commit assaults, break oaths, litter, and lie about the score of a shield push game and a host of other crimes simply because they're assholes and there's nothing religious or mystical in it at all.

[soltakss]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:31 AM, Snork said:

The question I have what's the usuaul custom with equipment would it be returned or kept as war booty?

I suppose it depends on the situation, the power of the person being ransomed, and the power of their clan, cuit or other organisation paying the ransom.

Capturing a yokel from a hick backwoods clan with no real force means that the ransomee could be given a kick up the rear and sent off without any belonging, with little fear of reprisal. That would not be particularly honourable, though.

Capturing a Storm Bull Rune Lord who is the leader of a thousand Storm Bull initiates might mean that they are released with all their equipment intact and some food and drink for their journey home.

Don't forget the story of Julius Caesar who was captured by pirates, he told the pirates that they weren't asking enough as a ransom, then spent a few years eradicating pirates in that area as revenge.

Clan feuds are a big thing in Glorantha and feuds can be started by treating prisoners poorly, including taking all their stuff.

Edited March 1 by soltakss

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

And there is always the option of the magical slave collar that bleeds magic points and does not allow the use of Rune Points.

That is exactly what I meant by 'exotic slavery magic'. Such things must be created by magical specialists,which implies at least a whole cult, maybe a society, organised around enabling chattel slavery.

Modern Dragon Pass is not that society. It is not short of labor; the limitation is the magic needed to make land farmable and defended. Calories consumed that do not produce Rune Points are lost to the economy. So there is no viable economic case for slavery; the culture reflects that.

IMG, slave collars were mostly imported from Fonrit, via Esrolia, by the Lunar-supporting Red Earth faction. They were normalized to some degree during the occupation period., but Orlanth Rune Lords like Kallyr and Broyan never accepted that, as per the prohibition on slavery in the Lightbringers book. When she came to power, Queen Samastina banned that trade as offensive to Orlanth, decreeing Ompalam to be a chaos god.

Some still use them in secret. But if an Issaries herald was shown captives being held in such a state, all rights to a fair ransom would be lost. Freeing the captives by force would be not just permitted, but a general moral obligation.

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Among Heortlings it is a particularly vile dishonor to sell humans to the Morokanth.

A lot wouldn't, just as a lot wouldn't kill their captives. But even fewer would establish a shrine to Ompalam to gain slavery magic. That would be open chaos worship, and so a direct challenge to the entire Lightbringer worldview. 

 

 

[Jens]

IMHO the use of Alter Creature by Morokanth to turn humans into herd men is mostly a tall tale told to frighten children and ignorant outsiders. Not only does it only impact members of Waha’s covenant, but it takes 2 points of permanent POW- effectively costing the Morkanth 400L to turn a skilled slave they could sell for 300L into a dumb beast for a net loss of 700L... I’d assume it is only done for particularly important social/mythological reasons, not as a matter of course or out of spite. 

[svensson]

3 hours ago, Jens said:

IMHO the use of Alter Creature by Morokanth to turn humans into herd men is mostly a tall tale told to frighten children and ignorant outsiders. Not only does it only impact members of Waha’s covenant, but it takes 2 points of permanent POW- effectively costing the Morkanth 400L to turn a skilled slave they could sell for 300L into a dumb beast for a net loss of 700L... I’d assume it is only done for particularly important social/mythological reasons, not as a matter of course or out of spite. 

And while those who know about Waha's Covenant MAY know that, almost NO Heortling knows it.

[svensson]

So, question for the Collective Thanatari Head...

I've done a fair bit typing and brainstorming on this topic and I think I'm gonna I'm gather my ideas together for my own use.

Would you guys like me to upload a file with all that?