Pol Joni Question

[svensson]

Given that the Pol Joni are 'invaders' in Prax and are considered the 'clan of outlaws', do they ever ride zebras?

On the one hand, it could ease relations with Praxian tribes. On the other, there are good 'Stafford reasons' why they don't.

[David Scott]

Given that:

Quote

The Pol-Joni offer an alternative way of life to the young men of the tribes, and there are contingents of High Llama, Bison, Impala, and Sable Riders within the Cattle People.

RQG, Pol-Joni, page 122

There are bound to be a few continents of minor tribes including zebra folk, so yes there are Pol-joni that ride zebras (just not a lot of them). Likewise raiding parties may pick up a few like all other herds. It's also worth noting that riding zebras cost sightly more than a sered (5L), so horses are cheaper.

Edited March 19 by David Scott

[Joerg]

The Pol Joni have been allies of the Zebra Tribe(s) of Prax since they had established themselves by putting Jaldon to rest. The Zebra Fort zebra people following Olgkarth had been hiding among them before Dorasar re-established them in the Big Rubble.

Pure blood war zebras breed rather slowly, which is why a lot of the Pavis zebra mounts are half-breeds of war zebra stallions with horse mares, as infertile as are the mules of the Issaries cult. In the RQ2/RQ Classic Pavis books, these crossbreeds were called Cavalry Zebras, but in the RQG Weapons and Equipment Guide it seems like all the zebras listed there are pure-breed war zebras, whether trained (or untrained) as meat animals, pack animals, steeds, cavalry steeds or war steeds. In the Second Age and up to the Battle of Alavan Argay, the Pure Horse Folk of Prax would provide mares to breed the crossbreeds, but until the arrival of the Pol Joni, hardly any crossbreeds were bred.

[svensson]

Thanks guys.

A couple of minor points /thoughts /questions

a] Mounts of all sorts are a lot cheaper if you're breeding them and not paying with cash. One would suppose that Pol Joni Eiritha-women can keep the costs manageable and increase breeding of war-zebra sized mounts to a reasonable level. War zebras are not common and are rarely for sale to outsiders, but I would guess the PJs have a sustainable population.

b] When you guys are generating a Praxian brave, what skill-level of mount do you give them, 'cavalry or 'war'?

I ask all this because I'm thinking of putting together a Pol Joni Elmal cultist via my cult writeup.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

b] When you guys are generating a Praxian brave, what skill-level of mount do you give them, 'cavalry or 'war'?

rune lord or priest, very very good warrior (included mounted weapon) > 100% (I imagine the only way to be rich enough to buy or get it from the clan chief)  ==> war

noble (occupation) ==> 50% war, 50% cavalry

others ==> cavalry

 

imo praxians tribes are not rich enough to provide war "machine" at will. A war mount needs a lot of season, it is a big investment.

then only those who are so effective that they are praised (and have collected enough slaves) could hope to obtain the best mounts of the clan

of course... when your dad is the clan chief and your not too bad, you may expect it after your first exploit..

 

1 hour ago, svensson said:

a] Mounts of all sorts are a lot cheaper if you're breeding them and not paying with cash. One would suppose that Pol Joni Eiritha-women can keep the costs manageable and increase breeding of war-zebra sized mounts to a reasonable level.

more a question than an answer : is it so easy to bread mounts from another tribes (magically, mundane secret, ...) ? Is there even any taboo to ride them (from a praxian perspective) and worst to breed them ?

I imagine that when a bison (or other) warrior get a sable (or other), he see it more as food than as mount (well maybe as a pack animal if there is a lot to carry)

[Nick Brooke]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

Given that the Pol Joni are 'invaders' in Prax and are considered the 'clan of outlaws', do they ever ride zebras?

On the one hand, it could ease relations with Praxian tribes. On the other, there are good 'Stafford reasons' why they don't.

The Pol Joni don't want to "ease relations with Praxian tribes." They want to ride horses and herd cattle.

[svensson]

59 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

rune lord or priest, very very good warrior (included mounted weapon) > 100% (I imagine the only way to be rich enough to buy or get it from the clan chief)  ==> war

noble (occupation) ==> 50% war, 50% cavalry

others ==> cavalry

 

imo praxians tribes are not rich enough to provide war "machine" at will. A war mount needs a lot of season, it is a big investment.

then only those who are so effective that they are praised (and have collected enough slaves) could hope to obtain the best mounts of the clan

of course... when your dad is the clan chief and your not too bad, you may expect it after your first exploit..

 

more a question than an answer : is it so easy to bread mounts from another tribes (magically, mundane secret, ...) ? Is there even any taboo to ride them (from a praxian perspective) and worst to breed them ?

I imagine that when a bison (or other) warrior get a sable (or other), he see it more as food than as mount (well maybe as a pack animal if there is a lot to carry)

Taking European destriers as an example, training a war horse also is a matter of temperament and intelligence. You can't take a draft horse and make a war mount out of it if it doesn't have that fighting instinct. That also serves to keep the eligible candidates small.

I've read in RQ3 sources that Praxian braves own only their own personal mounts and those beasts he takes from enemy tribes. All other animals belong to his wife, if he has one, or the clan herd under the care of the herd-mothers. His captured animals are a form of counting coup and are a secondary food source.

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, svensson said:

a] Mounts of all sorts are a lot cheaper if you're breeding them and not paying with cash. One would suppose that Pol Joni Eiritha-women can keep the costs manageable and increase breeding of war-zebra sized mounts to a reasonable level. War zebras are not common and are rarely for sale to outsiders, but I would guess the PJs have a sustainable population.

While that is almost certainly true, the table costs give us some guidelines of relative value in the long term. I would suggest that they don't have a sustainable population of zebra (just as other tribes don't maintain other beast types other than their own) and that's the main issue.

13 hours ago, svensson said:

b] When you guys are generating a Praxian brave, what skill-level of mount do you give them, 'cavalry or 'war'?

I ask all this because I'm thinking of putting together a Pol Joni Elmal cultist via my cult writeup.

Depends on occupation, most will just have riding beasts. The Pol-joni have light and heavy cavalry (RQG 72-73), so cavalry beasts. War beasts are likely to be limited to Rune Lords due to time and training constraints - so Wind Khans (Orlanth Adventurous), Storm khans (Storm Bull), Death Khans (Humakt), Khans (Waha) and Light khans (Yelmalio). However adventurers are different, and I'd allow players to upgrade their mounts by paying the difference (cavalry -> war) or swapping out their family heirloom (inherit parents horse) or Random boon (RQG 40).

[svensson]

@David Scott @Nick Brooke

You both make good and related points.

What I'm wondering is this:

The PJs are the 'interface' between Sartar and Prax. It seems likely, or at least possible, that they could make a lot of coin if they were a source of cavalry zebras for Sartarites traveling to the Plains.

Thane Bob gets outlawed for some reason and decides to head to Pavis, where he's heard that good sword can find work. He mounts up on his trusty Sered cavalry mare and rides for Barbarian Town. There he finds out that riding horses in Prax is bad voodoo indeed, but he sure the Hells ain't walking across the Plains if he can help it. So what to do? Then he finds 'Honest Atilla's Mounts and Tack' and Atilla is *perfectly* willing to buy Bob's Sered and sell him an allegedly cavalry-trained zebra.

As for 'The PJs don't care what the Praxian tribes think', I would think that the one thing the Bison and Sable tribes would agree on is ridding the Plains of the Non-Covenant heretics and their filthy beasts! Should that be the case, the PJs would be well-advised to find some sort of accommodation with the Tribes, or else their very existence would be in jeopardy.

Like a said, there are good 'Greg reasons' for and against the PJs and a healthy zebra herd.

Edited March 20 by svensson

[metcalph]

12 minutes ago, svensson said:

As for 'The PJs don't care what the Praxian tribes think', I would think that the one thing the Bison and Sable tribes would agree on is ridding the Plains of the Non-Covenant heretics and their filthy beasts! Should that be the case, the PJs would be well-advised to find some sort of accommodation with the Tribes, or else their very existence would be in jeopardy.

The actual statement about Waha and Horses is "Waha dislikes horses, for they are animals of Yelm, the sun god, and are not of Eiritha." (CoR: the Lightbringers p143).  That's a long way from ridding the Plains of all horses.  

Edit: and the Pol Joni themselves have 7% Waha worshippers (CoR: Mythology p155), so the cult itself is somewhat flexible on the matter.

Edited March 20 by metcalph

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, svensson said:

the Non-Covenant heretics

I m not sure they are seen as heretics. I mean they (or their  ancestors) where not here, not included in the covenant. They are outsiders. Of course {any pejorative word of your choice} not because they don't worship Waha ( why should they ? they are nothing for him) but because they are nothing, they are prey or danger, strangers, barbarians, etc.... Of course individuals may change the view, but more as an individual exception confirming the rule.

In the same way that a Rathori would say that a Malkioni is a stranger, a barbarian, nothing for his god-spirit-ancestor so a prey or a danger

[svensson]

@French Desperate WindChild @metcalph

And yet the tribes have consistently been portrayed in multiple editions as highly biased against horses and the people who ride them. Horse riders are singled out in raids, the horses themselves draw fire, the PJs are written as having a tenuous perch at the edge of the Plains because of excessive raiding by all the Tribes.

[Darius West]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:12 AM, svensson said:

Given that the Pol Joni are 'invaders' in Prax and are considered the 'clan of outlaws', do they ever ride zebras?

On the one hand, it could ease relations with Praxian tribes. On the other, there are good 'Stafford reasons' why they don't.

Yes.

[Darius West]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:12 AM, svensson said:

On the one hand, it could ease relations with Praxian tribes. On the other, there are good 'Stafford reasons' why they don't.

Derik Pol-Joni the founder of the Pol-Joni's parents were murdered by Sable Riders.  He created the Pol-Joni because the Animal Nomads were raiding into Dragon Pass with Jaldon too often.  It was Sartar himself who brokered peace and amity between the Pol-Joni and the Praxians.  The Pol-Joni and the Sartarites now likely worship Eiritha as the cattle mother instead of Uralda as one of many results.  The Pol-Joni are not going to stop riding horses just because of Praxian disapproval.  Did riding Zebras save the city of Pavis from Praxian aggression?  No.  It actually encouraged it, because it is perfectly fine to raid another Praxian tribe.

[svensson]

[Ya know, I was kinda hoping for some love regarding 'Honest Atilla's Mounts and Tack'.... Just sayin' 😆]

[Joerg]

50 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Derik Pol-Joni the founder of the Pol-Joni's parents were murdered by Sable Riders.  He created the Pol-Joni because the Animal Nomads were raiding into Dragon Pass with Jaldon too often.  It was Sartar himself who brokered peace and amity between the Pol-Joni and the Praxians.  The Pol-Joni and the Sartarites now likely worship Eiritha as the cattle mother instead of Uralda as one of many results.  The Pol-Joni are not going to stop riding horses just because of Praxian disapproval.  Did riding Zebras save the city of Pavis from Praxian aggression?  No.  It actually encouraged it, because it is perfectly fine to raid another Praxian tribe.

Uralda is just another name for Eiritha. Her cattle aspect now has an active shrine in the Paps, too, maintained by the Pol Joni, although there doesn't seem to be a cattle protectress yet.

Derik's cattle are a new breed from crossing a prize (magical?) Pentan steppe bull with Quivini highland cows, resulting in a breed better suited to the longer dry phases in the (fertile parts of the) chaparral. The Pol Joni rely on the dairy (and possibly some blood) of their cattle for much of their sustenance, butchering bull calves (for cheese-making) and bullocks. They seem to have abandoned the use of wagons and hence the need for oxen muscle power.

Riding zebras resulted in more than two centuries of peace and prosperity for the city of Pavis, with the Zebra folk a go-between their Pure Horse Folk cousins and the Praxians. The Pure Horse Folk relied on the support of the Quvini Orlanthi (both during the EWF period and after its collapse, before the Dragonkill.) With that support taken away, the Pure Horse Folk declined, and so did the city of Pavis.

With the Pol Joni re-establishing a horse-riding buffer tribe between Prax and the re-settled Quivini agriculturalsts, both Pavis and the Zebra tribe have recovered their advantages.

Argrath's future drain on the Praxian braves leads to a mass emigration into the wetlands along the Oslir (and the upper Creek-Stream River), reducing the pressure on the Pol Joni and the Zebra Tribe. The Morokanth might become the most populous tribe in the plains as there seem to be rather few of their tribesfolk following the call of the White Bull.

[Geoff R Evil]

I have been running a Pol Joni campaign for about a year, sessions every week. So I have had to deal with a lot of this stuff and fill in the gaps in canon, which there are many. I also disagree with some aspects of canon.

canon I do not agree with. The first is that there are Pol Joni Waha and Eirithan worshippers in the tribe. If there are any, they are exiled individuals from other clans, probably lost their mounts, and have not found a path to Ernalda or Orlanthi yet, or refuse to quite give up their Praxian covenant ways. They are NOT Pol Joni except by adoption or practical possible temporal integration. Perhaps for example, as traders. This is because Pol Joni horses are not in the Waha covenant, this is the root cause of the issue with Praxians. As @joerg says the paps has a cattle connection, but no high priestess. Maybe just maybe there are a few Pol Joni Eirithans but they are cattle focussed, definitely not horse.

As has also been highlighted by @Joerg the Waha accepted true zebra is a war zebra, this has been accepted by the paps and slightly less willingly by Waha as a special case riding creature that was not part of the original covenant, but is ancestorally traced back to wild zebra that were, hence the fudge that makes them acceptable, brokered by an especially clever Issaries.

In my campaign my party of PCs has adventured in and around Pavis and gained acceptance there….long story but they plug a political hole left by Argrath after kicking the lunars out. Along the way an Issaries Pol Joni joined the Herald Goodword subculture affiliated with Pavis and through this decided to swap to a war zebra to better follow that path. He just got back to his clan, who are not exactly happy, but are learning to accept his decision. Bottom line in my Glorantha under certain circumstances a pol Joni swapping to a war zebra is OK, but far from the norm and does require a commitment to the Zebra tribe to make the sale acceptable to the zebra tribe. Whether that player can navigate the demands of two tribes remains to be seen. It’s also worth noting breeding war zebra requires magics only available to that clan. So that’s scotches your pol Joni zebra breeding ideas I think, unless a deal with that clan can be done, but it might risk their position in Prax if they become a buy your way in tool….so probably won’t be allowed.

also just a comment on war horses in the pol Joni. Their breed of horse is not generally, with average stats, ever going to be a war horse, check out the enc issues. Heavy cavalry may use them, but without barding and no additional carrying capacity an adventurer needs. Unlike Praxian tribes, I believe most pol Joni warriors will have two horses, one cavalry for combat and one for equipment.  That said an exceptional horse could be a warhorse. This makes them especially valuable. In my campaign the groups top warrior just got one after a year of adventuring and kicking the lead thanes butt in an honour duel. So basically…rare as gnats bollocks.

 

[metcalph]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

@French Desperate WindChild @metcalph

And yet the tribes have consistently been portrayed in multiple editions as highly biased against horses and the people who ride them. Horse riders are singled out in raids, the horses themselves draw fire,

The canonical of contact between the Horse Riders (ie the party) and Praxian Horse Haters is the Borderlands scenario: To Giantland!  There the Praxians, miles away from the nearest US Calvary fort, do not immediately shoot our heroes and their mounts full of arrows and leave them to die in the Wastelands.    Instead they bar entrance to an oasis until the party can prove itself in a slanted contest.  Yes, the Praxians don't like horses in the same way that many Europeans do not like Russian Tanks but that hatred is not a visceral one overall.

 

18 hours ago, svensson said:

the PJs are written as having a tenuous perch at the edge of the Plains because of excessive raiding by all the Tribes.

I dunno where that comes from.  The Pol Joni live in the Good Place and the Better Place which are good grasslands and their hold is hardly tenuous.  

[Nick Brooke]

It’s something that happened after the fall of Sartar. The first Lunar invasion of Prax was (in part) to head off a pan-tribal confederation forming under Waha leadership and driving the Pol-Joni from those great grazing lands. From King of Sartar:

Quote

"The Pol‐Joni Tribe, unsupported by Sartar help, was mauled in a battle against combined Praxian forces. This alliance caused the Lunars to suspect that the demigod, Waha, was likely to return in person again soon. The Lunar commander sent a force under the command of Sor‐eel the Short against the Praxians… Upon his return, Sor‐eel was highly commended for his actions, which had prevented the rebirth of Waha."

Before Sartar fell, the Kingdom propped up the Pol-Joni (remember, they were the only Praxian tribe it’s legal for Sartarite merchants to sell metal weapons and armour to). Afterwards, they were kinda cut loose, and the threat from the Plaines tribes loomed large.

Edited March 23 by Nick Brooke
Added source quote

[Nick Brooke]

See my Manifesto, pages 113-114.

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

[Ya know, I was kinda hoping for some love regarding 'Honest Atilla's Mounts and Tack'.... Just sayin' 😆]

Provided.

[Geoff R Evil]

12 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

remember, they were the only Praxian tribe it’s legal for Sartarite merchants to sell metal weapons and armour to)

Um…where did that come from, not that I don’t accept the underlying logic of it, but is this canon or your Gloranthan manifesto, which I will download as it’s free pdf @Nick Brooke

[Nick Brooke]

I don’t think it’s my original idea. The Pol-Joni are Sartar’s allies, and form a buffer against raiders from the Plains: it would seem weird if the Kingdom of Sartar or the Pol-Joni Tribe were happy for its merchants to arm their enemies.

That breaks down after 1602, when the Kingdom stops functioning and the Lunars play divide-and-rule, and is pretty much in the trash-can after 1610, when the Lunars start shipping Provincial Army surplus kit to their Sable Nation auxiliaries and the Pol-Joni are driven out of the Good Place.

There are related complications when the Lunars crack down on Sartarites posessing any military-grade weapons and armour (cf. Starbrow’s Rebellion), and of course a ban on “sales” wouldn’t prevent an enterprising merchant or tribal leader from gift exchanges (e.g. giving a Praxian Khan some fancy bronze or iron armour in exchange for favours or services), even if it probably should. With no Prince (or a weak puppet) on the throne, the Kingdom is hardly functioning properly.

Come the RQG timeline, this is all moot. Argrath has loads of Praxian allies, arms them to the teeth, and doesn’t care about any treaties his predecessors might have entered into with the Pol-Joni tribe or anyone else. 

Edited March 22 by Nick Brooke

[Geoff R Evil]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:48 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Come the RQG timeline, this is all moot. Argrath has loads of Praxian allies, arms them to the teeth, and doesn’t care about any treaties his predecessors might have entered into with the Pol-Joni tribe or anyone else.

That’s a very Dragon Pass centric view of the world. Post Argrath kicking out the lunar from Pavis. The Pavic ring now has a problem on its hands, despite many Praxians heading off to Dragon Pass, many are left behind with access to Pavis itself now.

Most don’t hang around long, cities are alien to them, but they certainly will like the look of all that lush Pavis County land…and in my campaign do, as some tribes start to raid in that area, disrupting harvests, and creating an existential crisis for Pavis as the food supply to a largely increased population is tapering off fast. Armour and weaponry is a central concern in this, as is the need for a fighting force capable of dealing with Praxian raiders. In my campaign the Pol Joni come to Pavis’s attention, Historic friends of the now rather small zebra rider tribe, that need to be bolstered and reformed fast. 
so in my campaign the Pol Joni players have shown their worth and trust to the Pavic Council, and have been rewarded…with the offer of grazing in Pavis County plus a tithe from the farmers if they move their clan, and perhaps tribe, to the county area. The idea being they can work with the zebra clan, act as a rapid response force, and with the tithe giving them reason to protect sartarite (Dorasor followers and like Sartar friendly to the Pol Joni in principle due to aligned god worshipping) farmers.

How this goes who knows, my players are now back with their tribe, reestablishing their worth to the clan they had left for several seasons, and getting ready to present the Pavic offer to the clan ring. Moving Pol Joni clans en masse might be hard, but my players have already been awarded a thaneship in a Pavis County village, so might get their clan to shift, others may follow…of course, the big question is, do the lunar worry about this? Have they given up their plan to marry Pavis, they must have had a strategic need, so will they try and disrupt things? Clever bastards that they are they may be way ahead of the thinking of Pavis and the Pol Joni.

weaponry access and bronze access may come into play, it’s short now as so many weapons went to Praxian hands and off to Sartar… so certain mining assets become key….

Edited March 24 by Geoff R Evil

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

That’s a very Dragon Pass centric view of the world. Post Argrath kicking out the lunar from Pavis. The Pavic ring now has a problem on its hands, despite many Praxians heading off to Dragon Pass, many are left behind with access to Pavis itself now.

Most don’t hang around long, cities are alien to them, but they certainly will like the look of all that lush Pavis County land…and in my campaign do, as some tribes start to raid in that area, disrupting harvests, and creating an existential crisis for Pavis as the food supply to a largely increased population is tapering off fast. Armour and weaponry is a central concern in this, as is the need for a fighting force capable of dealing with Praxian raiders. In my campaign the Pol Joni come to Pavis’s attention, Historic friends of the now rather small zebra rider tribe, that need to be bolstered and reformed fast. 

The situation goes back to how it was pre-1572 - there are now Praxians back on the city council as it was at the time of the city founding. With that, no raiding Pavis county. There are elders alive who can remember when this was the case. Remember New Pavis was only founded in 1550, The failed Praxian revolt was 1572 and Dorosar died in 1579 (see Pavis GTA for the history). New Pavis was founded by Dorosar and the Sables, fisherfolk, Yelmalions and the dwarfs.