Illuminated PC:s in your games

[Geoff R Evil]

Just wondering how an illuminate of theistic cult, one that does not use sorcery, reacts to obtaining an item that can tap. My GM introduced a dagger that taps POW of foes it hits giving my char MP. My illuminated Humakti decided to keep it, safe, to not use it unless in dire straits…it just felt wrong. So as an Illuminate he decided if it was a life saver, maybe he would be tempted to use it. Never used yet.

So I have a Greatsword now,never used one, but swordtrance sorted that out, turns out it’s an Arkati artifact, a demon embodied in a sword called a godslayer, because each hit taps the pow of a foe giving its wielder hp up to conx2.  Now that’s more tempting to use ( it has other features that will develop as it sucks souls, to be discovered). So now I feel I really have to think through how an illuminate applies their enlightened thoughts to such an item. He decided that against hated foes like illuminated red goddess warriors and sorcerers it was OK to use, not dishonourable at all, just a way to equalise the fight. But he won’t use it against non chaotic or non illuminates, except maybe lunars (high hate lunar passion). 
The aspect that gets me thinking is the honour passion, as a Humakt Sword, achieved after illumination, he feels he is pushing the boundaries of honour using such a thing.

Thoughts?

[PhilHibbs]

46 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Just wondering how an illuminate of theistic cult, one that does not use sorcery, reacts to obtaining an item that can tap.

Tapping is bad, it is associated with chaos, but as an illuminate you know that chaos isn't necessarily what people think it to be. Nonetheless, it can still be bad. You can still believe diseases, undead, incest, secret murder, rape, are all bad as an illuminate.

So, as with all things, it depends. There's no "All illuminates think this about tapping" answer. An illuminated Orlanthi would probably still think that Steal Breath is a terrible thing to do to anybody. Tapping destroys the world, and if you like the world, maybe you don't want it destroyed.

If you're the kind of illuminate that goes hog wild for personal power and gain and will shamelessly munchkin the system, then go for it! You do you.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Just wondering how an illuminate of theistic cult, one that does not use sorcery, reacts to obtaining an item that can tap.

I don't think tapping is necessarily sorcerous (cf Jraktal).  It certainly isn't chaotic, just awful.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I don't think we ever had a PC become an illuminant "by the rules".  Some rules were fudged.  Or they were illuminated in previous campaigns or "Con Runs".

The few PC Illuminants we did have all descended into abusive power gaming caricatures who wore out their welcome.

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Just wondering how an illuminate of theistic cult, one that does not use sorcery, reacts to obtaining an item that can tap.

I mean… any way they like and that fits their personality and worldview? That’s the point, after all - they are free to do what they want, aware that all the rules are mere social constructs.

And while tapping is Chaotic, it’s not necessarily dishonorable, even for the Humakti who still believes in that. Humakt doesn’t have problems with Chaos in principle.

[Geoff R Evil]

Agree @Rodney Dangerduck I don’t want my Humakti Sword to descend into that area either. I consider I would have considered tapping an abomination before I was illuminated. But as an Illuminate, now fighting very powerful lunar sorcerors and Red Goddess cultists, one’s who use the bat that destroyed the souls of many of my clan at Boldhome, I feel it’s OK to use against those that use it against me and mine. Kind of a payback. But not against those whom I consider fight with my definition of honour, I.e. in line with their god guidance. As a new illuminate, I feel he still believes in the gods and does not see Illumination as a way to subvert their well worn myths that have kept us all alive and flourishing so long, and he does recognise that excessive tapping may have contributed to the downfall of the Justreli. It’s still an abomination. But one that can be turned on those that live by it, and he includes all lunars in that.

He also feels a need to keep the sword from others who would abuse it, as he sees it. Additionally my GM has put up some warning markers, the sword gains power as it taps, and it’s a demon about which I know little of its motivations. I have used it once after it had been unfed for 700 years and getting it back in its scabbard to stop fighting was an effort. So I already know it’s a weapon to only use when really needed. Plus as I am unskilled in it, I can only be effective when casting sword trance, which adds in its own limitations too, although with an allied spirit one can bypass some of those.

Edited July 6 by Geoff R Evil

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And while tapping is Chaotic, it’s not necessarily dishonorable, even for the Humakti who still believes in that. Humakt doesn’t have problems with Chaos in principle.

Why do you say that tapping is chaotic? I can not see anything in any rulesbook that could hint that.

Socially unacceptable, yes, if you can discern it and have any idea that it even exist, but not chaotic.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Why do you say that tapping is chaotic? I can not see anything in any rulesbook that could hint that.

Socially unacceptable, yes, if you can discern it and have any idea that it even exist, but not chaotic.

It's about the obliteration of existence (if at a small scale) and its god is Chaotic.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's about the obliteration of existence (if at a small scale) and its god is Chaotic.

In that case, any use of tap technique should bring a chaos taint. Having the sorcery chaos rune does, but not the tap technique, nor implying it from command technique.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

I cannot see anything in any rulesbook that could hint that.

Jraktal the Tap’s Prosopaedia entry (PDF, p. 68) hints very heavily, no?

[Kloster]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Jraktal the Tap’s Prosopaedia entry (PDF, p. 68) hints very heavily, no?

I said 'rulesbook'. And I still don't have the prosopaedia.

Whatever, tapping is sorcery, and should not be linked to a god (or perhaps to the invisible god).

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

tapping is sorcery, and should not be linked to a god (or perhaps to the invisible god)

Presumably, this is a bit of “in-Glorantha” writing — so caveat emptor, cave canem, etc. — but:

• Leader of the Chaos invasion of Pamaltela … Jraktal survives, as the use of Tapping among the Men of the West proves. Each time they call on him, all unknowingly, they hasten the end of the world.
  — Prosopaedia: Jraktal the Tap (PDF, p. 68)

Whether one puts Jraktal’s face on it or not, one might say that tapping is entropic — like all processes in Time? — and so Chaotic. There is no innocence of Chaos in the temporal world, so all on/off Chaos detectors are to some degree bogus, but processes may vary in how much nearer they bring the end of the world.

This is meant merely as a perspective, not as an argument, and not as a prescription. If you put a gun to my head and asked me, I guess I would say that there are people who work for Chaosium who “believe” that tapping is Chaotic, but happily we are not in that scenario. 😉

[Kloster]

I've never heard of Jraktal before your post.

10 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Whether one puts Jraktal’s face on it or not, one might say that tapping is entropic — like all processes in Time? — and so Chaotic.

I don't think. Tapping transform 'things( (matter, stats,...) in magical energy. Entropy (and thus Chaos) transform into nothingness. Pure personal opinion.

[Geoff R Evil]

I agree @Kloster but I also feel it’s a fine line. This whole tapping conversation in the context of illumination has been very enlightening. I think ultimately tapping is evil. But illumination can rationalise (correctly or incorrectly, your view) to use evil ways to balance the fight against evil ways, which is why the lunars rationalise the use of chaos, yet within boundaries. Who is correct? Well I feel lunar doctrine goes too far and rationalises the use of chaos against non chaos to drive their interpretation of civilisation. Whereas my illuminated Humakt rationalises using evil tools like tapping to fight those that use those same evil ways. Yet he would not adopt chaos to fight chaos…that is the Arkati boundary I think. Or at least my characters interpretation of that boundary. Hypocrite? Maybe, but he is my hypocrite and I am happy with that. YGMV

[Akhôrahil]

A PC in my campaign finally achieved Illumination last session, through the perhaps unorthodox method of hitting it up with immortal Illuminated ladies twice who helped to teach him (first Skath from Dorastor: Land of Doom, second Drasshala from Secrets of Dorastor).

[Kloster]

49 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I also feel it’s a fine line

Agreed.

49 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

This whole tapping conversation in the context of illumination has been very enlightening.

I would say illumunating.

50 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I think ultimately tapping is evil.

I don't think so. But I think no action is intrinsically evil.

51 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

But illumination can rationalise (correctly or incorrectly, your view) to use evil ways to balance the fight against evil ways, which is why the lunars rationalise the use of chaos, yet within boundaries.

Agreed.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Whereas my illuminated Humakt rationalises using evil tools like tapping

but is it really evil ?

Is it even chaotic ? Can you prove it ? Don't repeat what your hierarchy told you. They are  dedicated to their own power, they fear the true power, they don't want to see you more powerful than them. Oh they will not say that but are you sure of ther motivation ? Just think by yourself

 

Tell me, how do you consider all these people who tap the earth to eat vegetable, grains and fruits ? Are they all chaotic ? Are they all evils ?

There is no issue to use the power of your ennemies. My ennemies are evil and chaotic. It would be a fault to not use any option to weaken them, to destroy them.

I'm like you Humakti... well not exactly I m not rigid like you, I don't worship  the cold, but I offer him a lot of souls, haha for sure. I hope like you.

No my god is the storm bull and I swore to destroy chaotic ennemies everywhere. And I did it well. Since I have understood that it would be a sin to not use everything I can use to kill, I do it better. I've saved so many herds from the broos, I've saved so many clans and souls from starvation...

Don't fear the true power, use it, abuse it and you will serve your god.

Now offer me a beer or two. And drink with me, see the light, drink the truth, serve the death.

Edited July 6 by French Desperate WindChild

[PhilHibbs]

This is why I said "tapping is associated with chaos" rather than "tapping is chaotic". There is legitimate debate within Glorantha as to whether tapping is inherently chaotic. Same with other activities - cannibalism is associated with chaos, but there is non-chaotic cannibalism.

[davecake]

I suspect that, mythologically, before Death came into the world, Tapping was just turning Matter into Energy, or sometimes Energy into different Energy, and considered a morally neutral sorcerous technique. But now something is lost permanently when you Tap. 
Or to put it another way, Tapping now is always associated with Kajabor. It always weakens the world. 

The Brithini Tap without considering it to be a moral flaw because their morals and worldview were from before Kajabor was in the world. If the Law does not forbid Tapping, it is permitted (FWIW I don't think Brithini Tap other Brithini, but their Law doesn't say much about others or the environment). 

The Vadeli too, but additionally the Vadeli just don't care about whether it is ethical to Tap, because they are nihilist jerks who think ethics is just muddy thinking for lesser people. And they are known enthusiasts of Tapping.

But Tap is also a moral temptation, because it takes from the world at large for personal power. And Malkion said that the Law had changed now, we must not base our morality on the cold Law of Zzabur. Malkion now says 'you shalt not ruin what you love', and that is widely considered a rule against Tapping. Or at least most Tapping. The Galvosti say good Malkioni should not love the heathen, and so you can Tap them, as a result of which the heathen really do not love them. The Boristi say no one should love Chaos, in fact you should hate Chaos, and so should Tap it at every opportunity, as a result of which everyone thinks the Boristi are dangerous madmen (and unconfirmed rumours say dangerous *tenttacled* madmen). But for most Malkioni, Tap is associated with Chaos for most people who are able to Tap, because we realise it is breaking moral law, and that good people should love the world. (The Irensavalists think Tapping the material world is bad, because despite the material world being bad in itself, Tapping is bringing more of into yourself, making you less pure and more of the world in the process). 

FWIW, I think Jraktal the Tap as a Chaos God is essentially the abstract concept of Tapping anthropomorphised, just as Kajabor is entropy anthropomorphised. If you started worshipping Jraktal the Tap you could probably get some sort of magic from it (but you can get useful results from making up entirely made gods, so that doesn't prove much)  - but it's not clear if anyone ever did, and it doesn't really matter if they did, it would still be a power that could manifest on the Hero Plane etc. I think it's a mythological entity known from Pamaltela in general, and Fonrit in particular, because it's mostly an anthropomorphisation of the malevolent magic of the Vadeli.

And the Vadeli really don't care if they put a bit of Chaos into the world. If Jraktal is a real deity, rather than just a jumped up metaphor for the nature of Tapping being a universal threat, its probably because the Vadeli thought that empowering it (deliberately or as a side effect of other magical efforts) was desirable in their efforts to create new magical weapons against everyone else. They probably created at least some other Chaos deities this way  - Gark the Calm is pretty much the Vadeli practice of 'separating Matter and Energy' of their opponents (ie using their souls to power their spells, leaving their empty bodies as trade goods or raw material for zombie armies) made into a deity, at least Darleester the Noose if not Ompalam itself is a result of the magic their vast slave empire used to create their vast slave armies, their recognition of human desire as a powerful weakness that can be both exploited naturally and magically is probably why Pamaltela has so many succubi, and Seseine is so powerful there. And so on. 

 

 

[Joerg]

On 7/30/2024 at 3:33 PM, davecake said:

I suspect that, mythologically, before Death came into the world, Tapping was just turning Matter into Energy, or sometimes Energy into different Energy, and considered a morally neutral sorcerous technique. But now something is lost permanently when you Tap.

I am not quite sure whether Death is to blame on the condemnation of Tapping.

When it comes to the Tapping of Elements (elemental forces), with the Chaosium still intact and producing more Creation than the world could hold (hence Umath's Birth), syphoning off some of that extra Creation as energy was not a great deal for people with a materialistic world view (unless you take the Mostali perspective whose magic works in the opposite direction, endowing matter with energy).