Issaries or Eurmal sorcerers?

[Jex]

So I'm still working out a set of seven pregens for my Marshedge adventure; I want to cover all the major bases (shaman, sorcerer, etc.) while not getting too close conceptually to the pregens in the RuneQuest starter set.

Given the close relationship between the Lismelder Tribe (and the Marshedge clan in particular) and the Durulz, I wanted to make one of the pregens a Duck, and I was leaning toward making the Duck a Lhankor Mhy cultist, mostly I admit because I am amused by the thought of a Duck wearing a fake beard over its bill.  But I checked Duckpac, and while it confirms that Ducks can and do worship Lhankor Mhy, it also says that sorcery is anathema to Ducks and any Durulz found to be practicing sorcery, even a Lhankor Mhy cultist, would be put to death.

So, okay, that doesn't mean that I can't have a Lhankor-Mhy-worshipping Duck as one of my pregens, fake beard and all, but it does mean that that character can't be a sorcerer.  Which means if I want to have a sorcerer among the pregens, and don't want to double up and have two pregen characters in the same cult, then I'd have to have a sorcerer who doesn't worship Lhankor Mhy, which... seemed like a potential problem, since I wasn't sure any Orlanthis other than Lhankor Mhy cultists practiced sorcery.  I considered swapping things around and putting the Duck character in a different cult (even if it meant missing out on that bearded bill); I considered maybe even having a Lunar sorcerer character who had for some reason settled in the Marshedge territory.  But then I was reading through old forum posts and ran across the following

On 4/2/2019 at 2:18 PM, Kloster said:

According to Jeff, those cults allow for Sorcery: CA, Eurmal, Issaries, LM, and plenty of others.

Ooh, now that's promising!  I'm not sure I want to have a Chalana Arroy or Eurmal cultist as one of the pregens, but an Issaries cultist who practices sorcery could be a great fit, if that's a possible thing.  But I'm not sure where else to find more information about this.  Lhankor Mhy cultists can be taught sorcery in their temples; where would an Issaries cultist learn it?  Being disciples of the god of trade, would they somehow trade for it, maybe getting Lhankor Mhy cultists to teach them sorcery by offering them something in return?  How plausible is it that there would be a sorcery-using Issaries cultist among a backwater clan like the Marshedge?

EDIT: On second thought, maybe it could be interesting to have a trickster pregen (especially since it would further distance these pregens from those in the Starter Set, which do include an Issaries cultist).  I'll have to think about that.  But then a similar question stands... where would a Eurmal cultist learn sorcery?

Edited Tuesday at 10:57 PM by Jex
Reconsideration

[Jens]

If you look at the updated list of cults that allow sorcerers in RQ:G, you'll see that all of the Lightbringers and many other cults don't forbid sorcery- https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cults-allowing-sorcerers-or-shaman/ . That being said, the challenge in Marshedge would both be in finding a teacher, as well as the social prohibition against sorcerers. Certainly any Duck you ran into would have a big problem with you if they found out you are one of those Lunar-loving, Delecti-wannabe sorcerers. IMHO Lhankor Mhy gets away with it since they have strange powers and no-one understands what they're babbling about anyways- Orlanthi assume their spells are more akin to alchemy and reading too much than to what those Western meldeks are up to.

That being said, I see two possible paths for creating an Issaries sorcerer- use Philosopher as their profession to learn a Rune, a Technique, and 3 spells, and then initiate into Issaries to learn his cult skills OR start as a dual initiate of LM and Issaries- pick Merchant as your profession, and then use the LM cults skills to learn your sorcery, with perhaps 1 RP in LM and 2 in Issaries.

Two paths for a trickster- learn from another trickster, or that crazy old philosopher hermit, deep in the fen.

Edited Tuesday at 11:23 PM by Jens
Added trickster

[scott-martin]

Maybe the horrible truth is that a rogue sorcerer who needed to lie low once adopted or got adopted into trickster status so the skills and spells were already there when this person arrived. Whoever they're running from probably isn't going to look too hard among the clowns. Or if this character needs to be a novice, just push the narrative back a generation and there's this extra weird clown who knows a little something about the art and will teach. One day the authorities will catch up . . . but not yet.

 

[metcalph]

Delecti might be persuaded to teach sorcery.  Just saying. 

[Jex]

Ooh... it's been a while since I read all the way through Roleplaying in Glorantha, and I'd forgotten about the Philosopher occupation—good catch!  No Orlanthi gods other than Lhankor Mhy are listed in the Cults entry, but the book says those are just the "cults commonly associated with that occupation" (emphasis added), so that doesn't mean they're off limits to other cults.  With a suitable backstory, I could see that occupation working for either an Issaries or a Eurmal cultist... hm.  A scholarly fool could be an amusingly contradictory character... and the fact that trickster clowns are given a lot of latitude to violate social and sacred norms could help explain why a normally sorcery-intolerant Duck might put up with a companion who used sorcery, if that companion was a Clown...

Hmm... I recently got the Lightbringers book (and the other gods books that have been released so far), but haven't had a chance to thoroughly peruse it yet; maybe I'll at least read through the sections on Eurmal and Issaries and see if any of the subcults spark any ideas...

[Jens]

13 minutes ago, Jex said:

see if any of the subcults spark any ideas

Lean into the dichotomy- a philosopher and follower of Eurmal the fool; as a member of the Clown society they can violate sacred laws.

[Jex]

Yeah, that's what I'm currently leaning toward; I think that could work well and could be a fun character.

The only thing that's giving me a little pause is that there's already a Fool NPC in the Marshedge adventure, and I'm a little worried about maybe seeming to put... a bit too much spotlight on Eurmal.  A little Fool can go a long way.  But the NPC in question isn't a major character of the adventure (in fact, depending on how thoroughly the PCs investigate, they may never find out he's an initiate of Eurmal), and isn't a member of the Marshedge clan (he's a Tarsh exile who only recently arrived in the area), so maybe this isn't a problem.

EDIT: And after looking over the Eurmal subcults in The Lightbringers, I'm not actually sure that the Fool is the best match for the NPC in question anyway.  The Rogue subcult might be a better fit for him... although I'm not sure; he definitely does have aspects of the Fool as well...

Edited Wednesday at 12:08 AM by Jex

[EricW]

I find it difficult to imagine a third age trickster reading a book for long enough to learn sorcery. A trickster might steal sorcery skill on a heroquest. 

Having said that there was once a god learner school dedicated to Eurmal on Slontos, which tried to create a Trickster great temple. The school sank beneath the sea.

Nobody knows if any of the tricksters at the school noticed. 

A place where god learner sorcerers dedicated their lives to learning the infinite range of possible trickster spells would be indescribably strange. There is no prohibition against Tricksters using their magic on each other. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:13 AM by EricW

[Jex]

Oh, wait, that's interesting... according to the table @Jens linked, Humakt, perhaps surprisingly, does not forbid sorcerer initiates.  Hm.  I don't see that confirmed (or denied) in Cults of RuneQuest: Lightbringers (the table references page 105 of that book, but having looked over that page I see no mention of sorcery there), but if that's true... I was already planning on having one of the pregens be a Humakti, and a Humakti who knows sorcery might be fun, although it might require a creative backstory to justify it...  (Hm, I've got some possible ideas...)

[metcalph]

10 minutes ago, Jex said:

I was already planning on having one of the pregens be a Humakti, and a Humakti who knows sorcery might be fun, although it might require a creative backstory to justify it...

Not really.  Arkat was a Humakti and Humakt is widely worshipped in the West.  It's unusual in Dragon Pass but since Arkat fought here so long ago, it can't be forbidden.

[Jex]

I hadn't thought of it that way, but okay, given that I guess the fact that Humakt doesn't forbid sorcery may not be that surprising.  But I'd still suppose it would require somewhat unusual circumstances for a Sartarite Humakti to learn sorcery, especially one in a rural tribe like the Lismelder.  I think I may have a way to explain it for this character, though.

[Jens]

For inspiration on what a sorcerous Humakti might look like, take a look in The Smoking Ruin-

Spoiler

The Black Arkati. Page 137 has rules for adding militant sorcery to a Lightbringer cult.

 

[Jex]

Ah.  The Smoking Ruin is another book I just bought recently (as part of the same order as the Cults of Glorantha books, in fact) but haven't made time to read yet... I'll take a look at that.  Thanks.

[French Desperate WindChild]

my two guilders :

9 hours ago, Jex said:

it does mean that that character can't be a sorcerer

for me : "it does mean that character should not be a sorcerer... if not extremely cautious " so a smart and fair player with a good background / passions explaining this exception may be allowed to play it by the gm.

 

the second issue I have with the "sorcery taboo" is how can people know that this guy with weird moves, weird words, who get a weird magical effect is a sorcerer ?

I mean it may be a sorcerery spell, or an exotic spirit spell people don't know... or even a runic spell from a cult people don't know.

Is there a distinctive mark ? I would say that a runic spell shows some divine aura/impact, something enough powerful from the otherworld that people can recognize. But between spirit magic and sorcery ?

My personal answer is they can't. And sometimes they falsely accuse the spirit caster. And sometimes they don't see any trouble with the sorcery caster .

And of course, in my dark glorantha, they can't and they always accuse anyone casting weird magic if they don't trust the caster or know the caster have authority approval

 

like @EricW it is difficult to imagine (but imagination is Eurmal kindom) a trickster fool enough to "waste" her time and her concentration (how could she not be distracted by... anything) to learn any skill and spell ?! but that's probably possible, however, that would imply a lot of roleplay differences with a "standard" trickster - if Eurmal allows me to use this word 😛 -

[metcalph]

On the subject of Humakti and sorcery, I found the cult of Black Arkat description in the Smoking Ruins to be a bit lacking.  

I don't think a Humakti would have much time to be a great sorcerer.  Sorcery spells like Boon of Kargan Tor is going to be inferior to plain old Shield considering that the Humakti would generally lack any ability to cast spells with significant intensity *and* duration to make it worthwhile.  Truth spells like Logician and Geomancy might be more helpful depending on what's being sought. 

I think most western Humakti do not take geases in return for gifts but to further strengthen their Rightness and in return more caste magic.  Thus they appear to be sorcerous warriors compared to their Central Genertelan counterparts even though both worship the same God.  Such Humakti might be found in Black Horse County and possibly among the Aeolians.  Unfortunately I only have several contradictory ideas about how caste magic might work.

[EricW]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

On the subject of Humakti and sorcery, I found the cult of Black Arkat description in the Smoking Ruins to be a bit lacking.  

Vampires are sorcerers (?!). So it might make sense for Humakt temples to sometimes maintain a small cadre of sorcerers, to try to counter the sorcery of particularly powerful vampires - unless they are prejudiced about sorcery because it is vampire magic.

Perhaps venerated Humakti who are too old to keep up with the kids study sorcery as part of their strategic planning role.

Edited Wednesday at 11:02 AM by EricW

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I don't think a Humakti would have much time to be a great sorcerer. 

But are all humakti dedicated to fight ? I imagine, that their affinity is more the war than the fight. Fight is part of war, but war is bigger than fight. Among those who are called by the Death, some work on death metal, some work on strategy; and as they know a big army needs a lot, some work on supply management. Why not then consider that some dedicate themselves on support, offering enormous benefits to their fighters ?

 

I'm not very confident on that point, but I imagine that Humakt is more war when Storm bull is more fight, for example

[Erol of Backford]

15 hours ago, Jex said:

even a Lhankor Mhy cultist, would be put to death.

Tar and feather a duck Meldek... "wait they already have feathers" says the stick picker Orlanthi bumkin, sounds interesting. 

[Aurelius]

I don't think Sorcerer-Shamans are generally a cool idea at all, but I'm still curious of why Irrippi Ontor and Lhankor Mhy would forbid Shaman initiates? 

Seeking truth (but NOT in the Spirit World) is a bit like a guild of explorers (NOT open for seafarers)?

[Darius West]

The great problem with sorcery is that it takes a long time to get good.  Hence the archetype of the old bearded wizard.

[EricW]

19 hours ago, Aurelius said:

I don't think Sorcerer-Shamans are generally a cool idea at all, but I'm still curious of why Irrippi Ontor and Lhankor Mhy would forbid Shaman initiates? 

Seeking truth (but NOT in the Spirit World) is a bit like a guild of explorers (NOT open for seafarers)?

I suspect a sorcerer shaman would have to be illuminated up the wazoo to cope with the contradictions between the sorcerous and shamanic traditions - and would probably be hated by everyone if anyone figured out what they had done.  

As for seeker of truth, sorcery fits with truth seeker, Lhankor Mhy sorcerers seems a natural fit. Thanatar an even better fit.

Not so sure about Shamen. I mean a Shaman would be more in touch with the Gloranthan reality that there are many irreconcilable truths, they might looking upon "seeker of truth" as hubris, a fools errand. Just look at how much trouble those God Learners caused, when they tried to fit their one size fits all model of cosmic truth onto Glorantha, and ignored the spiritual warnings they had made a horrible mistake. 

 

Edited Thursday at 01:05 PM by EricW

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 hours ago, Aurelius said:

I don't think Sorcerer-Shamans are generally a cool idea at all

 

Is it even possible ? I imagine that you need so much concentration (depth, time, etc...) to learn and master runes and technics, then to canalize energy when you cast a sorcery spell that you can't be disturbed by any spirit visiting your fetch. Or maybe your fetch will refuse anything that could lead you to the sorcery path

 

 

19 hours ago, Aurelius said:

 I'm still curious of why Irrippi Ontor and Lhankor Mhy would forbid Shaman initiates?

Social sciences versus logic science ? They may consider that those who bargain every day with spirits are unable to determine and demonstrate any unquestionable truth

Maybe their gods secrets are disgusting for people who live with spirits and they don't want to take any risk (revolt, madness,...)

 

19 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Seeking truth (but NOT in the Spirit World) is a bit like a guild of explorers (NOT open for seafarers)?

Initiation is forbidden, but nothing prevents LM/IO to work with a shaman, to visit the spirit world or to question them, to determine the laws regulating the spirit world or anything about spirit. The point is just that shaman cannot learn the secret of the cults (those you obtain during initiation, at least)

[Kloster]

According to Trollpack (RQ3), Sorceror/Shaman (and even Priest/Sorceror/Shaman) was possible for Kyger Lytor cultists. As far as I understood, this is still possible, especially because RQG does not forbid anymore multiple runic ranks, as RQ3 did.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

I suspect a sorcerer shaman would have to be illuminated up the wazoo to cope with the contradictions between the sorcerous and shamanic traditions - and would probably be hated by everyone if anyone figured out what they had done.  

I.e. they are ideal for Argrath to recruit into his weird Magical Societies.

[Joerg]

18 minutes ago, Kloster said:

According to Trollpack (RQ3), Sorceror/Shaman (and even Priest/Sorceror/Shaman) was possible for Kyger Lytor cultists. As far as I understood, this is still possible, especially because RQG does not forbid anymore multiple runic ranks, as RQ3 did.

Trolls originate in the Underworld, where such distinctions are a lot less dominant, rather emergent than established. Mistress Race uz have the characteristics and the proximity to their deities to support this, but I doubt you will find many rune level trollkin, and don't think you'll find any dual rune level trollkin throughout the history of their existence.

Humans and similar mortals have one "spiritual organ" that they can shape into rune-level equivalents, although in more than one cult. The Knowing God allows pure theism and a blend of theism and sorcery. Waha allows shamanic practices and theism. Orlanth requires theism of his rune levels, but allows multiple theist initiation to friendly cults. Arkat (who had acquired some sorcery as a Dawn Age Seshnegi Hrestoli Man-of-All) was allowed into Orlanth's rune levels possibly thanks to Illumination, possibly thanks to his "Kaelith" (demigod) status as having been to Hell and Back (and no, a day trip inside the walls of Alkoth does not count towards that status).

Illumination might allow an individual to use mysticism to make their "spiritual organ" fit other ways (like the advanced Lunar Way).

RQ3 did not forbid multiple runic ranks, it only did not clarify how to organize the time and tithe management the way RQG does. A dual acolyte status would have been possible under RQ3, although with no time left for anything outside of the two cult duties.