lunar empire Questions on the cult of the penitent

[WolfskinSon]

I’ve been thinking about the nature of the Danfive cult and its place in lunar society. It’s supposed to be a place for the worst criminals in lunar society to turn to in order to avoid punishments for heinous crimes. The hierarchy is probably more strict than typical DH culture. The punishments for breaking the rules range from torture to neutering and exile. 
 

But I’ve found the writing on it in The Lunar Way to be scant and odd. This is a penal cult that focuses on redemption through pain. But it also talks about rehabilitation and re integration into the community of gods and men. 
 

But when does the penance end? At what point does the pain you inflict on yourself undo the harm you’ve done? Shouldn’t the cult focus more on putting people to work to repay their debts to society than shows of remorse through pain? What are people learning by scaring and ripping their flesh? 

This seems to be a pretty big deal in the empire and I’m suprised there wasn’t more written.

 

Edit- If anyone knows any supplemental material on Danfive  please let me know.

Edited July 21 by WolfskinSon

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, WolfskinSon said:

But when does the penance end?

Upon death whereupon they are freed from themselves.

Far from proportionate, I agree, but the Lunar Empire never does anything by the halves.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, WolfskinSon said:

If anyone knows any supplemental material on Danfive  please let me know.

Completely non-canonical, but, in Fire & Sword, redeemed Danfive cultists often became policemen (or secret police), and were playable, even popular, as PC characters.

I agree with your concerns.  As presented in The Lunar Way, they seem nearly unplayable to me, unless you are into some seriously weird excrement.

59 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Upon death whereupon they are freed from themselves.

Geez, unappealing.   That doesn't fit my view of the Lunar Religion as one of Liberation.  But I'm in a minority, and you are, alas, sadly correct.

[davecake]

There are some canonical ways to be freed from it. One example is an Illuminated Overseer may become an Initiate of the Red Goddess, and then may become an Initiate of the Red Emperor, at which point all their previous cult restrictions are removed (this may be what happened to Nose Ring of the Coders). 

But more commonly I think once a member of Danfive Xaron is Illuminnated, they may be tested, and they pass the test, and are believed to have performed sufficient penance, their superior in the cult may affirm that they are still bound to follow their orders - and then order them to go free. Think of the scene in V for Vendetta. After that they may be offered a mission, which would enable them to remain in the cult. 

Remember, most Lunar Cults have no spirit of retribution. If the cult decides no longer to punish a past member, no one else will. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

56 minutes ago, davecake said:

an Illuminated Overseer may become an Initiate of the Red Goddess, and then may become an Initiate of the Red Emperor,

True, good thinking, but unlikely (as you probably realize).  Your starting DX PC needs to become a Rune Lord, answer some riddles, roll Illumination some year at sacred time, then roll INT+POW to join Red Goddess, then make another roughly 50% roll to join Red Emperor.  There's probably more that I'm missing.  We should develop a version of the Drake Equation to compute the odds...

[metcalph]

A simple way to make the role of the Xaroni more interesting is this:

Quote

Obedience: Initiates must absolutely obey orders from
the Red Emperor (or his proxies and agents) or from
temple superiors without complaint or delay. This rule
supersedes all others [my emphasis - PHM]. Failure to obey results in death.

Lunar Way p48

Want Xaroni special agents?  Simply make them part of the Spoken Word (or what have you) with standing orders covering their actions as a detective-at-large.  Want Xaroni beat-cops?  Make them part of responsible to a Halcyon var Enkorth clone with orders to be tough on adventurers and other trouble-making scum.  There are as many orders of Xaroni around as there are initiates of the Red Emperor in need of trustworthy enforcers.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

Want Xaroni special agents?  Simply make them part of the Spoken Word (or what have you) with standing orders covering their actions as a detective-at-large

That works.  Ultimately, if the solution to making a playable DX PC is GM fiat "do this or die", that's very forced and limiting.

[EricW]

On 7/22/2024 at 4:18 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

True, good thinking, but unlikely (as you probably realize).  Your starting DX PC needs to become a Rune Lord, answer some riddles, roll Illumination some year at sacred time, then roll INT+POW to join Red Goddess, then make another roughly 50% roll to join Red Emperor.  There's probably more that I'm missing.  We should develop a version of the Drake Equation to compute the odds...

I would have thought riddles would be made available. Illumination might even be seen as a form of therapy, liberating incorrigibly wicked sinners from the constraints of their self destructive beliefs, helping them embrace the grace of the goddess. The goal after all is for people to change their behaviour, and becoming illuminated is a path to profound self realisation and change. Of course, sometimes it goes horribly wrong. 

[mfbrandi]

Of course, when the Big O sees the light, all the little DXers will open their third eyes and their shackles will fall away — assuming Orlanth can reform before he is eaten by the Devil. Things are not looking good for our D5 penitents, then. 😉

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 7/21/2024 at 10:15 PM, davecake said:

Remember, most Lunar Cults have no spirit of retribution. If the cult decides no longer to punish a past member, no one else will. 

DX is an exception, it "needs no spirit of reprisal".  If you break cult rules or leave the cult, you will face judgement for your previous crimes.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I think, if you want to play a DX character, you should think why your pc became DX. And how the pc imagine to be (come) a good person. Does the pc think be already good / redempted ? etc...

For me, those who are looking for personal redemption obey because they see the DX way as the best way to wahs away their sins.

But for those who consider they already have paid for their own faults, they may consider that, as member of humanity/people/kingdom/community, and as humanity/... is not free from all the evil, they must pay for all. Cause this pain, is not only a way to understand and pay your debt, it is a magical sacrifice for the good of the world. Of course you may even see people who continue just because they love it or because they don't see any other way for them.

 

An idea of pc I'm working on:

"The voice"

The voice is a young men (~20yo) who is well known and appreciate in Sartar. He is an initiate of Eurmal and his main "skill" is his voice. An extraordinay - some would say divine - crystal clear voice. No men are able to sing like him. Very few talented women may be able to do it. In addition, the voice loves to make children laugh. When recognized, he is welcome in any poor village, in any rich court.

But the truth is more than this incomplete picutre.

At six, Daros and his family were trapped and tortured by tusk riders. He saw his mother and father bloody sacrifices. He, himself suffer their torture, they cut part of himself and offer it to their evil god. He was saved by a group of adventurers, led by a clown who took him under his protection, teaching joke and how to use this gift the riders unintentionnaly "offer" to him. But the clown teached him too how to defend himself, in other word how an eurmali kill his enemies. And his protector had an ennemy. A very powerful ennemy, and he saw this kid to be his hand, his tool, against him.

Years later, now a man, Daros travelled from city to city in the Tarsh. One day, a lunar officer, from a very noble family, awed by the voice of Daros sent him to his uncle in Glamour. His gift made the rest and a special, ultimate, show was organized for the emperor who would be enjoyed to hear "cry to heaven"

Then the plan of his mentor seemed to be a success but an eurmali plan is always subject to problem, right ? And Daros did not succeed to even approach the emperor, he was catched before. As usual, authority conducted an investigation. And Inki Zitor, a Danfive Xron high priest was in charge of discovering the truth. Days and nights went by and after smelling the blood, drinking the cry, cheering the scream, Inki knew the truth, all the truth.

With the approval of the Emperor (who was seduced by his voice, a "real" angel's voice you may hear in Yelm's court) Inki decided to offer Daros the path of redemption. No more pain was provided during his initiation, Daros paid his debt a lot of years before his crime. And Daros was teached that the world was doomed. That the red emperor "mission" was to save the people from sin, that violence should not be an option but the last and least option and that, now, he, Daros, will be one of his tool.

His mission was to use his eurmali talents and his gift to offer joy, pleasure and hope among the sartarites. By this way he may even teach them some ethic - lunar ethic- guidelines.  But if one day,  the empire discovers that a man, or a woman, is a danger for Sartar, for its children, for humanity, Daros will be ordered to use another talent, a secret talent of Eurmal, to remove this danger.

this is the Voice.

In rqg term,

Passions:  "loyalty red emperor" 60, "love children laughter" 80, "looking for a family/friends" 60, "avenge any children pain" 90

cults: Eurmal (RP 3) / Danfive Xaron (RP 1)

spells: group laughter, charisma, strike, silver track

Edited July 24 by French Desperate WindChild

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

DX is an exception, it "needs no spirit of reprisal".  If you break cult rules or leave the cult, you will face judgement for your previous crimes.

No, that is the same as most of the others, you no longer enjoy the privileges of cult membership and may face the judgement of the cult, only the chances are that for Danfive members the privileges of membership include not being punished for some terrible crime, often capital punishment. You are not supposed to leave Danfive, but if you do there will be no spirits of retribution, only the judgement of a particularly judgemental cult. The same applies to the majority of Lunar cults, including the Seven Mothers individually and collectively, there are no spirits of reprisal only the judgement of the cult itself, and society at large - just for most of them are a lot more relaxed about what is needed to justify punishment for members who have left (in fact, its only Yanafal that seems to take much action against former members at all). It usually will not even be the cult itself that punishes you - it may simply communicate to whatever authorities responsible for punishing your previous crime. Or the DX cult may decide you merit punishment under the cult rules and hunt you down, and you can spend the rest of your life panicking at the sight of anything that looks like black bearskin cloaks - usually if you broke the cult rules in some important way before you left the cult. 

But it is entirely possible (though presumably very unusual) that a DX initiate joined the cult entirely voluntarily (perhaps from doing something that they feel very guilty about), and did not actually commit any infractions of the DX cult rules that caused them to leave (or they have been punished for those infractions already), and simply decided to leave the cult. In which case DX is just like the other Lunar cults - there is no spirit of reprisal, though there may be consequences. 

On 7/22/2024 at 2:18 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

True, good thinking, but unlikely (as you probably realize).  Your starting DX PC needs to become a Rune Lord, answer some riddles, roll Illumination some year at sacred time, then roll INT+POW to join Red Goddess, then make another roughly 50% roll to join Red Emperor.  There's probably more that I'm missing.

I never said it was easy, only that canonically, even within official Lunar law, it is possible. 

And for PCs becoming Illuminated is easy to justify. Easy enough a generous GM could have it happen during character creation. Within the Lunar Empire some exposure to Illumination is common enough it can easily be part of your character history. And even outside it, it could be part of your campaign background with GM Permission. And once you have been exposed to Illumination, those yearly rolls make it fairly likely you will end up Illuminated eventually. But yes, becoming a Rune Lord is pretty hard though - though the cult does provide free training in the skills required for Rune Lord, so it is certainly possible for a dedicated penitent. 

19 hours ago, EricW said:

I would have thought riddles would be made available. Illumination might even be seen as a form of therapy, liberating incorrigibly wicked sinners from the constraints of their self destructive beliefs, helping them embrace the grace of the goddess. The goal after all is for people to change their behaviour, and becoming illuminated is a path to profound self realisation and change.

Absolutely. Every so often a Sister of the New Consciousness might discuss Illumination, for example. And then ask a riddle or too. Or those who have 'graduated' from the cult, or the Overseers, might ask promosing penitents a riddle. 

I think once you are recognised as Illuminated, I think DX becomes more flexible. They might not entirely grant a penitent their full freedom or similar, but they might relax the restrictions enough to make you a playable PC, such as demonstrating your devotion to the Lunar Way through active service in the world - "For my sins, they gave me a mission."

I do agree that discussing conditions under which the penitent is considered to have repented enough to leave the cult (or at least, leave the full time service of the cult) and continue serving the Lunar way in other ways would have been helpful. 

Edited July 24 by davecake

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/21/2024 at 10:49 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That doesn't fit my view of the Lunar Religion as one of Liberation. 

Lunars would probably say something along the lines of ”it’s about spiritual liberation”. Talk about liberation certainly won’t do anything to the institution of slavery, either.

(Not that the Orlanthi are much less hypocritical - I believe Six Ages jokes about ”I follow the God of Freedom, come buy my slaves!)

Edited July 24 by Akhôrahil

[EricW]

On 7/22/2024 at 6:49 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Geez, unappealing.   That doesn't fit my view of the Lunar Religion as one of Liberation.  But I'm in a minority, and you are, alas, sadly correct.

Penitents do have a choice though - they can accept their just punishment and take their chances in the afterlife, or accept a final opportunity to redeem themselves in this life. 

[radmonger]

On 7/21/2024 at 5:37 PM, WolfskinSon said:

The punishments for breaking the rules range from torture to neutering and exile. 

It is kind of brutally efficient. You break a rule, you have to do without a body part until you succeed at a Worship: Danfive Xaron roll. A grizzled imperial agent might humblebrag that it took him 400 castings of Regrow Limb before he finally saw the light of the Way.

Before any DX can  become illuminated, they must get to the point where they are enforce the rules on themselves. In doing so, they demonstrate they can be trusted to not have to follow the rules.

 

Edited July 24 by radmonger

[Joerg]

What is the survival rate in the cult anyway?

Penitents get executed for disobedience. Those that obey will be employed in hazardous activities. Among these probably atrocity troops and Dart Competitions.

Survivors who proceed to priesthood and illumination may join the Red Goddess.

[Aurelius]

I think DX is super playable as a cult. The way I think of it is a bit like the US army: the first months or years inside the cult are not super playable, but as you earn trust, suffer early punishment stuff and probe your worth, you can end up assigned pretty much anywhere — even as an initiate. 

Chain gangs building roads and galley slaves pulling a Kalikos boat. But also penal legions fighting in the frontier. And from there you could end up a bodyguard of an imperial officer, a dart wars assassin, or an unspoken word agent, or basically anything. If you have Eel in your name, a senator, or a general, or a provincial overseer. 

Sure, leaving DX in good standing is extraordinarily rare, but so is leaving many other cults too. The main difference is just that DX requires priest-level commitment also for initiates — but that doesn’t need to mean slaving away in salt mines for your character. 

IMG, being illuminated would count as mostly having shed your sins among the DX community. 

[Aurelius]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

It is kind of brutally efficient. You break a rule, you have to do without a body part until you succeed at a Worship: Danfive Xaron roll. A grizzled imperial agent might humblebrag that it took him 400 castings of Regrow Limb before he finally saw the light of the Way.

IMG the xaronites forbid regrowing bits sacrificed in self-mortification rites and cult punishments, except as a reward for unusual heroism, promotion, or piety. 

Conveniently, penitents breaking the rule now have some extra flesh and bone that can be cut away in small bits and pieces to ensure remorse. 

[WolfskinSon]

On 7/23/2024 at 8:27 AM, mfbrandi said:

Of course, when the Big O sees the light, all the little DXers will open their third eyes and their shackles will fall away — assuming Orlanth can reform before he is eaten by the Devil. Things are not looking good for our D5 penitents, then. 😉

So would that involve Orlanth sharing the middle air with Sedenya? Or something else entirely like a rebirth into a different god? A big thing in his nature is that he will always oppose chaos

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

And for PCs becoming Illuminated is easy to justify. Easy enough a generous GM could have it happen during character creation. Within the Lunar Empire some exposure to Illumination is common enough it can easily be part of your character history.

Most of the cults have a red box "Initiates of XXX" listing starting skill bonuses for a PC initiate.  I don't see any that include the Illumination skill.  Nysalor and Red Goddess do not have a red box for comparison.

Perhaps an oversight?  I agree that there could be some exposure to Illumination during character history.  However, it does not seem that the authorities do anything extra special to teach it to Danfive Xaron as opposed to other cults.

8 hours ago, davecake said:

I do agree that discussing conditions under which the penitent is considered to have repented enough to leave the cult (or at least, leave the full time service of the cult) and continue serving the Lunar way in other ways would have been helpful. 

Agreed.

 

3 hours ago, Aurelius said:

And from there you could end up a bodyguard...

Sure.  Why would they hire you?  Are you good at Sense Assassin, Scan or Listen?  Handy with weapons?  Can you treat poison or cast Heal Body?  As a Danfiver, not particularly.  You don't even officially have Streetwise or other "I have contacts with snitches" skills.  (You should put this into your character background somewhere...)

That said, your improved skills in Insight, Search and Martial Arts are useful, so this is actually a reasonable possibility.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Most of the cults have a red box "Initiates of XXX" listing starting skill bonuses for a PC initiate.  I don't see any that include the Illumination skill.  Nysalor and Red Goddess do not have a red box for comparison.

I think a gm may allow to use one of personal skill to get the illumination skill.

however it depends on gm, I m not sure I would allow it without a very very good background and roleplay strategy from the player (not just «  because it is fun »)

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, WolfskinSon said:

A big thing in his nature is that he will always oppose chaos

He pops that third eye when he realises he is the Chaos he opposes? I don’t know. The key thing for present purposes is that DX is or stands for Orlanth — an insight I can claim no credit for. DX cultists are not really being punished for their own sins but for the Big O’s. Until Orlanth is forgiven by the RG, the Lunars will make the DXers pay for his sins. I didn’t say it was fair, but as Her pique is being taken out on the self-loathing dregs of society (who are all out of choices), who is going to complain? Perhaps scourging DX cultists generates mana for the war on Orlanth. By the Gbaji principle — each of us is her own worst enemy — the whole thing is likely self-defeating. The narcissism of no difference at all. 😉

[John Biles]

Danfive Xeron is another iteration of ascetic mysticism.  It's tied to law and punishment, but the core 'gain enlightenment and release from sin' thing is every flagellant order ever.

The core crime of Danfive is to be mired in materialism and having his ass kicked is how he atones/escapes from it.  He and Jakaleel both belong to this 'suffer your way to wisdom' thing.

The liberation in Danfive Xeron is escaping from your attachment to the material world and its sins.  Because the thing is, from this perspective *the whole world is a prison*.  The man who sits in his insula's restaurant, eating beef stew is just as much a prisoner of his comfort, but his comfort will never let him escape this shoddy world, unlike Danfive's suffering.

What looks like cruelty to outsiders is actually kindness - you will never achieve enlightenment by sitting around comfortably; only suffering will shock you out of your complacency and slavery to the material world.  And if you die, you will have more chances in the next life, anyway.

You might point out that use of similar methods by the Kralorelans turned Sheng Seleris into the monster he was, but they'd say the Kralorelans did it wrong and Sheng was a monster even before that.

(Buddha would definitely find this a terrible methodology.)

 

 

 

[WolfskinSon]

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

The liberation in Danfive Xeron is escaping from your attachment to the material world and its sins.  Because the thing is, from this perspective *the whole world is a prison*.  The man who sits in his insula's restaurant, eating beef stew is just as much a prisoner of his comfort, but his comfort will never let him escape this shoddy world, unlike Danfive's suffering.

Is the guy with his bowl of beef stew or anyone who lives a normal to comfortable life putting on the bear skin anytime soon? 
 

Sedenya sez: “Life is suffering, but suffering is not life.” I never heard the Mara prison tradition being espoused by anyone in the lunar empire. Only the illusion of “I AM”

 And not a lot of lunars are looking to willingly follow Danfive.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

14 hours ago, John Biles said:

Danfive Xaron is another iteration of ascetic mysticism. 

Danfive is an important cult for Gloranthan and Lunar game background.

However, as it is presented, I remain deeply skeptical that it is a viable cult for a PC.  Nor is Runequest a good game system for exploring ascetic mysticism, despite the inclusion of Runes and Passions.  I'm not sure if any game system is.