Are all gods illuminated?

[Nevermet]

Obviously some deities are explicitly illuminated.  Orlanth, Yelm, Humukt, and a few others are.  So, at the least, some deities are illuminated. However, not every deity has a story about how the became illuminated.  Most don't, as far as I know, have a story that's been published.

So that means either (a) some deities are not illuminated, or that (b) all deities became illuminated through the Great Compromise.

I realized today that I have been assuming the former, but it could be (b), or any other letter of the alphabet.

(A fun implication of b is that there's no guarantee that mortals who were deified after the Dawn are illuminated, so we can just keep going, and going...)

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

So that means either (a) some deities are not illuminated

I'd say that most deities are not Illuminated. Nysalor, Yelm, and the Red Goddess clearly are. Yelmalio if I recall is. I don't recall Orlanth and Humakt as Illuminated, but may be forgetting some reference. Otherwise, I don't see any reason for other deities to be Illuminated. The Great Compromise is simply a willingness to help hold the world together, not some event of great enlightenment. That's why the gods still quarrel and struggle.

[Nevermet]

Maybe I'm not using the correct term, but IIRC, Orlanth acquired illumination by defeating dragons.  I forget where I read this... maybe a HQG pub.

[metcalph]

Gods that own a rune are illuminated (the so-called Great Gods) are illuminated. 

[Jens]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't recall Orlanth and Humakt as Illuminated

Humakt and Uleria are canonically illuminated. Indeed, Greg was clear every god that owned or was the source of a rune was illuminated, and perhaps all gods are- see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/humakti/

[Geoff R Evil]

Never realised some gods were illuminated…..brings in an interesting perspective as to the professed reasons some cults like Orlanth hate those damned lunar riddlers, when their own god is illuminated. So those illuminated gods basically feel such a state should not be offered to the common worshippers….whereas the red goddess disagrees and actively promotes it.

Yet when a worshippers of Orlanth or similar achieves illumination these gods seem to allow it, because obviously they can sense it? Makes you think a bit more about illumination and it’s role in the hero wars.

A tangled web indeed.

[metcalph]

The Illumination offered by the Great Gods is a limited mystical awareness.  That which Gbaji and Nysalor teach is a more general perception.  The Great Gods have no opinion on the new illumination because it is something that exists within time and which they are blind to.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Jens said:

Humakt and Uleria are canonically illuminated. Indeed, Greg was clear every god that owned or was the source of a rune was illuminated, and perhaps all gods are- see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/humakti/

Figured there was probably some reference out there - thanks for noting this!

Greg's words seem apt here: "Illumination is not a problem for gods. Certainly every deity which is the owner or source of a rune has obtained a state of consciousness which is their equivalent of Illumination, and probably many more as well, perhaps all of them. But deities, by definition, are eternal cosmic powers. They have very little (if any) free will and no opportunity to make choices like humans have."

Whether a deity offers a path for mortals to follow to achieve the cosmic awareness of Illumination is another, separate consideration.

[Eff]

14 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Obviously some deities are explicitly illuminated.  Orlanth, Yelm, Humukt, and a few others are.  So, at the least, some deities are illuminated. However, not every deity has a story about how the became illuminated.  Most don't, as far as I know, have a story that's been published.

So that means either (a) some deities are not illuminated, or that (b) all deities became illuminated through the Great Compromise.

I realized today that I have been assuming the former, but it could be (b), or any other letter of the alphabet.

(A fun implication of b is that there's no guarantee that mortals who were deified after the Dawn are illuminated, so we can just keep going, and going...)

I think there is an interesting question embedded in the notion of illumination here. Stafford's words use "state of consciousness which is their equivalent to illumination". So what could that mean? When we say "illumination", are we talking about an insight towards transcendent consciousness from a basal, immanent state of being? Or are we talking about a specific family of insights?

A human who achieves illumination is able to overcome an automatic fear of the unknown, for example. But does a god have that automatic fear? Another consequence of illumination in humans is the (possibly increased) capacity to engage in critical self-examination and "step outside oneself". Is that something which gods lack by default?

Would a god who becomes illuminated become a higher sort of god, or would they gain insights into being a human, or an animal, or a lowly spirit? That is, should we treat this as a convergent set of pathways to an enlightened/buddhalike state of being, or a divergent set of pathways outwards?

[John Biles]

On 8/4/2024 at 3:18 AM, Geoff R Evil said:

Never realised some gods were illuminated…..brings in an interesting perspective as to the professed reasons some cults like Orlanth hate those damned lunar riddlers, when their own god is illuminated. So those illuminated gods basically feel such a state should not be offered to the common worshippers….whereas the red goddess disagrees and actively promotes it.

 

Arkat was keenly aware of how much he abused illumination and now much damage *others* could do. 

16 hours ago, Eff said:

I think there is an interesting question embedded in the notion of illumination here. Stafford's words use "state of consciousness which is their equivalent to illumination". So what could that mean? When we say "illumination", are we talking about an insight towards transcendent consciousness from a basal, immanent state of being? Or are we talking about a specific family of insights?

A human who achieves illumination is able to overcome an automatic fear of the unknown, for example. But does a god have that automatic fear? Another consequence of illumination in humans is the (possibly increased) capacity to engage in critical self-examination and "step outside oneself". Is that something which gods lack by default?

 

We know Rashoron's illumination removed fear... which led the Unholy Trio to go do horrible things without fear.

 

[Joerg]

The EWF proved the compability of pretty much the whole spectrum of deities and their cults with draconic enlightenment. The EWF counter-movement (Alakoring, Karvanyar) proved that such cults could overcome that enlightenment.

[Nevermet]

With absolutely no snark or sarcasm, I love that Glorantha is a setting where one can speak of overcoming enlightenment as a potentially justifiable position.

Edited August 5 by Nevermet

[Eff]

12 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

With absolutely no snark or sarcasm, I love that Glorantha is a setting where one can speak of overcoming enlightenment as a potentially justifiable position.

Of course, it's an open question whether the gods overcame enlightenment, whether their worshipers rejected the draconic approach and enacted material protections against it, or whether the worshipers mutilated their gods to remove the draconic pathway on a spiritual level.

[Nevermet]

Of course.  I said "potentially justifiable" because while one could in-setting articulate an argument against enlightenment that makes sense, it is not an objectively superior argument.  The pro enlightenment side (be it Lunar Illumination, draconic mysticism, or something else) will easily be able to create a rebuttal that is just as articulate.

[Ali the Helering]

I think a case could be made for Subere repelling anything of 'enlightenment', and that for all of those under the Darkness rune some other term should be found.

[Akhôrahil]

I don't think this is a meaningful question to ask.

What their worshipers believe about them, is.

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I think a case could be made for Subere repelling anything of 'enlightenment', and that for all of those under the Darkness rune some other term should be found.

I've had an Arkating call it "Endarkening".

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I think a case could be made for Subere repelling anything of 'enlightenment', and that for all of those under the Darkness rune some other term should be found.

Well, it has been there all along — the secret of the light within is that it has been blown out, extinguished, no? 😉

[Nevermet]

IIRC, Spol had a darkness-based form of 'illumination' also, (probably) unrelated to Arkat.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

IIRC, Spol had a darkness-based form of 'illumination' also, (probably) unrelated to Arkat.

The Old Good Shadow, supposedly destroyed

[Alex]

On 8/4/2024 at 4:53 PM, Eff said:

I think there is an interesting question embedded in the notion of illumination here. Stafford's words use "state of consciousness which is their equivalent to illumination".

Yes, and what "equivalent" might mean here, and what "consciousness" means for a deity at all are thorny questions if you want to get into the 'are they or aren't they' enumeration.

On 8/4/2024 at 4:53 PM, Eff said:

Would a god who becomes illuminated become a higher sort of god, or would they gain insights into being a human, or an animal, or a lowly spirit?

I think "higher sort of god" is pretty apt, broadly speaking.  Another way Greg's put it is "their own connection to the transcendent".  That describes Illumination and "equivalent" forms of...  y'know.  "Mysticism."  "Ascetic practices."  "Esoteric religious practices."  You get a brief but profound glimpse into the deepest nature of the cosmos.  But it also has to be true of at least some of the gods.  The "rune owners", those with the "infinity rune", etc.  They're basically channelling this stuff.   Of course you can distinguish here between each "mask" of -- let's say -- the air rune, and the deepest "source" that connects them all, and all collateral worship of all things air-related.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Well, it has been there all along — the secret of the light within is that it has been blown out, extinguished, no? 😉

The story of the Three Curious Spirits in Troll Pak claims that the original Light was birthed (or pre-birthed) in the deepest recesses of Darkness.

[Ali the Helering]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The story of the Three Curious Spirits in Troll Pak claims that the original Light was birthed (or pre-birthed) in the deepest recesses of Darkness.

One of the most interesting myths in the whole history of Glorantha

[Alex]

On 8/4/2024 at 2:43 PM, jajagappa said:

Whether a deity offers a path for mortals to follow to achieve the cosmic awareness of Illumination is another, separate consideration.

Yes indeed, very separate.  Arguably in both directions:  if i can point you at the Moon, does that make my finger Illuminated?  I suspect not.  So for sure Humakt and Orlanth are "the equivalent of Illuminated" because they're mainline-huffing an entire whole Major Rune.  That does nothing to suggest that you can become Illuminated just by (say) killing lots of people in a very honourable and truthful way, or by causing lots of problems and then fixing them yourself.  If anything, the established theistic religions are more like Illumination Prevention Units:  these are ways to gain magic that will not cause major existential SAN loss and unscheduled complete disassembly of your state of consciousness, which would be much more likely if you were to go blundering around in the Otherworld without such a map of the territory.

Of the two examples, while Humakt is the one Greg specifically name-checked, Orlanth's the more obvious case of offering such a path in the setting as published.  Notably both Orlanth Dragonfriend and Tarumath.  (But Tarumath's explicitly not Orlanth!  Yeahyeahyeah if you say so, but very clearly 'collateral air worship', so same thing for these purposes.  We're just quibbling about 'correct' and 'incorrect' methods so to do.)  Couple of other more recent examples that might be a little more "post-canonical", too -- indeed, jaja might be the very Hendriki to tell us about that!

[Alex]

On 8/4/2024 at 2:11 AM, Nevermet said:

So that means either (a) some deities are not illuminated, or that (b) all deities became illuminated through the Great Compromise.

I'd say -- with all the previous 'what do we even mean by--!' caveats once again -- largely (a).  In the sense that some deities, if they didn't exist, you wouldn't necessarily have to invent them.  If Orlanth really were Dead, then you'd need a new Air god to replace him, stat.  (Or else we're remaking the universe in such a deeply profound manner as to make everything since the Golden Age, Compromise and Chaos Age included, look like a blip.  If the Mostali spec for the World Machine says 'number of elements:  four' then there's some biiiiiiig changes in train!)  This "new" -- or I guess promoted internal applicant! -- deity would "experience" or "play the role" in a functionally similar manner.  They're now "plugged into" a fundamental part of the cosmos, and they colour how it's interacted with.  Umath's Air was different from Orlanth's, and would be different from "Doburdun's".  To say nothing of "no Air here, only Sky, Earth right underneath, who dis?"

That's not the case with the minor or ordinary/"non-major" deities.  If they're eliminated and not replaced, the effects might be drastic, but they're not beyond reasonable conception.  They're not playing the role of a 'building block' of the universe.  They can be "nourished by the transcendent" certainly, but not necessarily directly so.