How would you defeat the crimson bat?

[Bill the barbarian]

 

12 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I know that, canonically, Lunars have teleport, since they used it to finish off Kallyr at the Battle of the Queens. 

Where do they get it?

Coerced spell trading?

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I know that, canonically, Lunars have teleport, since they used it to finish off Kallyr at the Battle of the Queens. 

Where do they get it?

He Who Moves is the lover of the Blue Moon so they got from him. 

[radmonger]

21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Easiest pick here is just a BG Rune Lord with an 18+ points of Slash (could easily be 30+ points for someone experienced).

18 points would be the normal starting limit, based on a max CHA. 30 would be the domain of truly famous heroes.

That technicality aside, the basic scenario seems plausible enough, and can be interpreted as matching the Dragon Pass version of the wargame rules. The Bat will automatically destroy any single normal unit, but doing so brings it within teleport range of the champions of any elite warband. Who then have a fairly even fight with the cult atop the bat, while being free to expend all their Rune magic in doing so.

I suspect the Bat was, historically, a truly unstoppable weapon of war. But then someone, likely King Broyan, heroquested to bring back teleport magic, which made it a much fairer fight. Right now it is arguably a bit obselete; scary, but costing a disproportionate amount for what it can do. Pragmatic generals are likely arguing for its decommissioning, which the devout likely see as as existential threat to the entire logic of the Lunar Way. What is the point of an unnecessary evil?

Meanwhile lunar heroquesters are presumably searching for a counter to the teleport gambit.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

35 minutes ago, metcalph said:

He Who Moves is the lover of the Blue Moon so they got from him. 

Neither He, nor Teleport, appear in the recent Cults of Runequest: The Lunar Way.

He Who Moves appears in the Prospedia, as the dead husband of a shattered goddess who has a tenuous relationship to Annilla and the Blue Moon.  Annilla is associated with ocean tides, and the Invisibility and Absorption spells.  Nowhere in the cults book does it describe her as having Teleport.

This may be an oversight?

[Godlearner]

Medusa's Head.

[Akhôrahil]

54 minutes ago, radmonger said:

18 points would be the normal starting limit, based on a max CHA. 30 would be the domain of truly famous heroes.

18 points in the Rune Lord, 12 points in the Allied Spirit. This isn't particularly demanding - mid-range Rune Lord PC level.

Edited August 14 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

18 points in the Rune Lord, 12 points in the Allied Spirit. This isn't particularly demanding - mid-range Rune Lord PC level.

Not sure if I'd call this "mid-range", but I agree overall.  These are reachable stats, and several of our PCs have reached those levels or more.

This is also where the game system, in many of our opinions, just plain breaks.  If this mid-range group of PCs can contemplate taking on The Bat, what is a GM supposed to throw against them for interesting conflict?

Are other groups having this problem?  Any suggestions on how to deal with it?

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not sure if I'd call this "mid-range", but I agree overall.

I meant mid-range for Rune Lords, not mid-range for PCs. But yes, my PCs are starting to push up against the CHA limit in several cases.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Neither He, nor Teleport, appear in the recent Cults of Runequest: The Lunar Way.

Because the cult of Annilla (whose associate he would be) is intended for the Darkness Cults book. 

[Ali the Helering]

Sometimes Heroquesting will take you well beyond theoretical statistical limitations.   

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

18 points in the Rune Lord, 12 points in the Allied Spirit. This isn't particularly demanding - mid-range Rune Lord PC level.

I've not seen anything that says spells cast by an allied spirit stack.

Some bits of the game system do break before hitting the CHA cap on stackability of Rune Magic, but they are generally fixable by house rules. Go much beyond it and all bets are off.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I've not seen anything that says spells cast by an allied spirit stack.

You can freely use each other’s Rune Points.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I've not seen anything that says spells cast by an allied spirit stack.

Some bits of the game system do break before hitting the CHA cap on stackability of Rune Magic, but they are generally fixable by house rules. Go much beyond it and all bets are off.

The only reason Shield isn’t utterly broken and merely overpowered, is because at least other PCs can still be hurt once a PC turns on invulnerability mode.

[Jens]

In my headcanon the Lunars didn’t teleport at the Battle of the Queen. Instead they used the Blue Moon provided Invisibilty spell to appear behind them, which the Orlanthi mistook for the more familiar to them Teleportation. 
 

And yes, while separate spells cast by a Rune Lord and their allied spirit wouldn’t stack, either could use the other’s points to fuel one giant spell. 

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, Jens said:

nd yes, while separate spells cast by a Rune Lord and their allied spirit wouldn’t stack, either could use the other’s points to fuel one giant spell. 

As far as I can tell, the rules don't specifically say that is possible. And if they did, it would, to me, be necessary to add a house rule forbidding it. If you don't have your own Dragon Pass counter, you are within, or close to, normal human statistic limits. Fighting the Crimson Bat is a dangerous military operation that requires calling in every possible ally, many of whom will die in the process.

And not a personal stretching exercise you might fit in before breakfast.

 

 

 

Edited August 15 by radmonger

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

As far as I can tell, the rules don't specifically say that is possible.

It follows directly from being able to use the other's Rune Points. You cast a 30-pointer, and pay with it partly from your own pool, partly from its. There would have to be a rule to stop this in order for it not to work. It's just like using MPs from your Allied Spirit, or from your Fetch.

It is indeed incredibly powerful, though, so it's understandable if you want to house-rule. 30-point Woad or Thunderstone, anyone?

Edited August 15 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Neither He, nor Teleport, appear in the recent Cults of Runequest: The Lunar Way.

He Who Moves appears in the Prospedia, as the dead husband of a shattered goddess who has a tenuous relationship to Annilla and the Blue Moon.  Annilla is associated with ocean tides, and the Invisibility and Absorption spells.  Nowhere in the cults book does it describe her as having Teleport.

This may be an oversight?

The Blue Moon goddess (and her associates) will be published in Cults of RuneQuest volume Darkness.

Teleporting Blue Moon worshippers are known - the Zaranistangi Loper People of the Second Age.

[Akhôrahil]

You can do better than my initial suggestion, though.

Easier method requiring more prep time:

Since we've established that 30-point Rune Magic spells are pretty doable, you could attack the bat from a distance using Thunderstones and a sling. A 30-point Thunderstone does 30d6 damage (armor protects), on average 105 - 42 = 63 points of damage (+basic sling damage, but whatever). This is likely to disable a body part and probably cause a crash in itself (a sufficiently skilled slinger would aim for the head, naturally). Use three, and you will likely get a kill (I would have a couple extra in reserve, though). And since the magic is targeted at the stone and the stone is then used as an attack, the Bat's immunities never kick in.

Since they can be prepared in advance, once per year, a single person can prep them, or you can get cult bigwigs to do it for you. 30 Rune Points is a bit, but come on, this is the Bat we're talking about - 90 Rune Points is dirt cheap.

This would probably be my preferred method. If you can't get the bat into range, some more complicated setup with Fly and Teleport should do it. This is doing it seriously on the cheap, and at as little personal risk as humanly possible. It can also be done fully within the Orlanth cult - no need to recruit possibly recalcitrant BG Rune Lords.

Edited August 15 by Akhôrahil

[radmonger]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Since we've established that 30-point Rune Magic spells are pretty doable

I would say that that is a pretty good reductio ad absurdum to prove that 30 point Rune Spells are not castable by mortal humans.

Much of the advantage of fetches and allied spirits is that they can cast spells independently; there really is nothing in the rules that suggests they can combine their efforts to cast a big spell in parallel.

Note that there is a much larger limit on the size of a spell a wyter can cast. Which is presumably why Great Temples are strategic holdouts that pretty much never get conquered. And if they do, the consequences tend to be drastic, as in Whitewall and the Great Winter.

[Shiningbrow]

Bah!

Just do it the Ozzy Osborne way, and bite its head off!

 

(hmmmm.... would that mean that an Eurmali's Swallow would work?)

[Akhôrahil]

33 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I would say that that is a pretty good reductio ad absurdum to prove that 30 point Rune Spells are not castable by mortal humans.

The thread presumably is about Rules-As-Written ways to take the Bat down, and the RAW is clear here.

Do I agree that RQG has at points absurdly powerful Rune Magic? Sure! But it's in the published game.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I know that, canonically, Lunars have teleport, since they used it to finish off Kallyr at the Battle of the Queens. 

Where do they get it?

Captured spirits? Heroquests and stealing it from someone who already has it? Spell Trading? Sorcery? Or even just a simple DI? Truestone? Enchantment?

Edited August 15 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

48 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Much of the advantage of fetches and allied spirits is that they can cast spells independently; there really is nothing in the rules that suggests they can combine their efforts to cast a big spell in parallel.

Allied Spirits, as separate entities - maybe not. But a Fetch is actually part of the Shaman, and so yes, they could combine Rune Points - and is something I was just thinking could happen. I don't *think* there's a reason a Wind Lord couldn't also be a Shaman....

 

However, going back to the original plan of attack - on Bat-back - I don't see why a DI couldn't be used to negate the Bat's armour (at least for the one doing the DI). Possibly via a BG, but more appropriately for a Stormbully.

I was also thinking - Thunder Brothers and the likes... or Snake Daughters... any 4-point Cult Spirit is going to be very useful (at the very least as support).

 

Going a tad more extreme - an Adamantine weapon (or at least, the head of a weapon - the pointy bit that sticks in).

[Shiningbrow]

56 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The thread presumably is about Rules-As-Written ways to take the Bat down, and the RAW is clear here.

I wouldn't call it "clear here".

There's some murk.

Such as, can one cast spells requiring RPs beyond the CHA limit? (granted, that's an easy work around... Glamour/Charisma, but still).

The implication could be that the character just doesn't have that amount of raw Character to God ooomph to handle that much power pouring through them. (in saying this, I am thinking that casting spells isn't as simple as saying it, and it happens. There's something that goes on within the caster - after all, in theory, you are channelling your god's power - and that's not a lighthearted thing to do! Trying to channel *that* much power should be something they really real! After all, it is ripping through ALL of those years of sacrificed power in one single cast. Casting Rune Magic is supposed to be fairly obvious - casting 30 points of Rune Magic should make you stand out like a Gandalf

[firestell]

Damn I missed a good portion of the discussion, thanks everyone for your contribution!

Overall I think 30 point rune spell is moot. Worst case you'll need a trickster to bless the weapon with Strike beforehand. 18d6 is an average of 63 points of damage, more than enough to down any of the bats body parts in one strike.

Personally I avoid any strategy relying on weapon trance because it cheapens most scenarios. In my (currently non existent game) I'd make it work just like arrow trance, fixed double skill for 2rp.

Of course, as this thread shows, there are still ways to kill it without 600% weapon skill.