Human Kitori Karrg's Sons

[Erol of Backford]

So we have human Kitori, we have human Arkati, maybe some of these might be one and the same?

The Only Old One favored the Kitori and even allowed them to reside with him in the Palace of Black Glass.

Some human Kitori may be able to transform into trolls from what I have read, of course I don't recall where...

The Kitori served envoys and collected the Shadow Tribute.

The GtG say there are about 5k Kitori in Troll Woods. It also says there are about 41k trolls at the Shadow Plateau. Are the 5k Kitori a mix of trolls and humans or are the Troll Woods filled with trolls and the GtG didn't list them? It seems that Troll Woods is a bit large for only 5k, guessing there'd be at least 15-25k trolls in troll woods? I don't have an issue either way but thought if its called Troll Woods a few dozen might live there. Guessing the 41k trolls on the Shadow Plateau might be including any in Troll Woods. Say 15k in Troll Woods and 26k on the Plateau?

Any way, was looking at Kyger Litor Initiate, Acolyte and Karrg's Sons. I read the old Troll Cults Book from the boxed set and don't see where you actually need to be a troll. Which means you could be human, especially if you were Kitori?

You will (with some likely discrimination and bullying) be treated as a troll once you are an actual initiate.

Where I am going with this is could a female human Kitori, one like say of Naimless' stature, size and abilities who was a Kyger Litor initiate apply to be a Karrg's Son? Their skin might become a little grey and they may have some rudimentary tusks grow..

I imagine it'd be interesting... and hey didn't Naimless have 2 troll boyfriends at the same time? Of course I don't recall where I read this either but thinking one of their names was Taksag whom she bested in combat and also became a Humakti... that's another story.

I only see one issue and that is that Karrg's Sons must eat a relative each High Holy day... well er um, could they adopt a herdman and eat it? I suppose also if they were recognized as a troll all trolls would be family... what does trolkin taste like? 

They also could sponsor a Trollball team which would be great for the Backford Ballers trollball team I've been working on.

Thoughts and positive comments (negative as well but they are not liked nearly as much) and thank you all.

 

Edited Sunday at 10:11 PM by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are the 5k Kitori a mix of trolls and humans

Yes. About 2500 of each.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

It seems that Troll Woods is a bit large for only 5k, guessing there'd be at least 15-25k trolls in troll woods?

No, it isn't that large, and not feasible to contain that many trolls. As above, only about 2500 trolls.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Guessing the 41k trolls on the Shadow Plateau might be including any in Troll Woods.

No, those are trolls in the Shadow Plateau - remember that the plateau is both very tall and very deep, so lots of caverns and space within.

 

[Joerg]

Karrg's Sons are necessarily followers of Kyger Litor, i.e. true trolls or adoptees through the Ritual of Rebirth.

Human Kitori who can attain troll shape do so through the magic of the Night Cult. This doesn't make them regular uz unless they undergo adoption. If they do so in troll shape, their chances for making it might be excellent, but anordeal will still be involved. Easier to join ZZ in addition to AA if they want Rune Lord powers.

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So we have human Kitori, we have human Arkati, maybe some of these might be one and the same?

The Kitori are associated with Argan Argar rather than Arkat.  Their founder Varzor Kitor even predated Arkat.

 

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Some human Kitori may be able to transform into trolls from what I have read, of course I don't recall where...

There is the spell of Become Other (Red Book of Magic p16) in which a Human can become a Troll and vice-versa.  That resembles the description of the Shadowlords who were mentioned in the Sartar Companion.  It's not part of the core Argan Argar rune spells (in RQ:Glorantha) so is likely to be a subcult.  

 

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Any way, was looking at Kyger Litor Initiate, Acolyte and Karrg's Sons. I read the old Troll Cults Book from the boxed set and don't see where you actually need to be a troll. Which means you could be human, especially if you were Kitori?

The Troll Adoption rituals is described as a requirement for non-Troll candidates and is described at length in Trollpak, Troll Gods and the Elder Races Book.  I doubt that Kygor Litor would be persuaded by shape-shifting magics from someone who isn't an associate and Arkat didn't even try.  Moreover Karrg is an ancestor, which means that he wouldn't be worshipped by non-descendants, I would have thought. 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

The human Kitori won't usually join Kyger Litor, which is an ancestor cult.  The process for humans joining is documented in RQ2 Trollpack, if I recall correctly, also in RQ3 Troll Gods.  It involves dying and a fair chance of being permanently dead, but if you end up alive you gain Uz features including nice teeth.  You are essentially reborn as an Uz , at least to the satisfaction of the Uz. and they have shared their ancestor KL with you.  

What I would emphasize is that the human Kitori came to Darkness through the Only Old One, Ezkankekko, who was the demigod son of Argan Argar.  That is their primary cult.  Kitor was promised knowledge of the power of Darkness in return for serving the Only Old One.  His adherents and descendants did so faithfully.

We may presume that some Kitori join other Uz cults like Gorakiki (very useful) and Zorak Zoran (useful if your reaction to the genocide is revenge, less useful if it is to survive and grow.)  

As for population of the Troll Woods. remember that the Uz lifestyle tends to  be hunter-gatherer. so low density;  and the human Kitori were almost wiped out by Sartarite ethnic cleansing.  

  

Edited Monday at 01:03 PM by Squaredeal Sten
Ezkankekko

[jajagappa]

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

and the human Kitori were almost wiped out by Sartarite ethnic cleansing.  

I believe this is an old, outdated view. 

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I believe this is an old, outdated view. 

The old outdated view is that a couple thousand got enslaved by the victorious Elmali and cut off their ancestral Darkness. Whether the new post WF15 canon has the former human Kitori residents of Vanntar as refugees in the Troll Woods, Nochet and elsewhere or slain on the battlefield remains unclear.

[Squaredeal Sten]

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The old outdated view is that a couple thousand got enslaved by the victorious Elmali and cut off their ancestral Darkness. Whether the new post WF15 canon has the former human Kitori residents of Vanntar as refugees in the Troll Woods, Nochet and elsewhere or slain on the battlefield remains unclear.

So there is likely to be a Kitori diaspora to Nochet and possibly to other un-named places?

Nevertheless what were the Kitori population figures before Tarkalor Trollkiller?  

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes. About 2500 of each.

More specifically:

Quote

 

The Kitori tribe, which now fills the Troll Woods, [...] The tribe includes some 3,000 humans, 1,000 dark trolls, and 2,000 trollkin.

Lands of RuneQuest, Dragon Pass, page 145

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

described at length in Trollpak

I didn't see the rebirth in the Troll Gods book but I found it in Troll Pak. I'll need to read it cover to cover. I never did but pulled lots a parts-pieces from it in the past.

Will look at the other troll cults...

Thank you all.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I didn't see the rebirth in the Troll Gods book but I found it in Troll Pak.

The Troll Adoption rites are literally at the end of the Kyger Litor cult writeup in Troll Gods.  The birth of Arkat Kingtroll is in the accompanying yellow booklet. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:11 AM by metcalph

[svensson]

To the OP:

In order to be a Karrg's Son, a human must pass several very difficult tests...

1] He would have to be male; Karrg's Sons are males only cult;

2] He would have to be accepted as a member of a tribe of Uz; I don't think the Troll Adoption Rite is entirely necessary for this, I can see some extensive roleplay avenues to that goal, but YGMV

3] He would have to be an Initiate of Kyger Litor; that DOES require the Troll Adoption Rite

4] He would have to roleplay gaining enough standing and power within a clan of Uz to be an acceptable candidate; that might be harder than it sounds.

Karrg's Sons are the Uz equivalent of a Wind Lord of Orlanth or an Axe Maiden of Bab Gor. One can't just wander in and take the tests. You have to have a relationship with tribe and the temple. This is what the means when the requirements say 'there must be an opening for a Rune Lord'. You have to attend worship services regularly, tithe to the church, serve the goals of the church, and be an asset to both the church and the clan. That's not something that can be accomplished in just a game year.

[svensson]

16 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Troll Adoption rites are literally at the end of the Kyger Litor cult writeup in Troll Gods.  The birth of Arkat Kingtroll is in the accompanying yellow booklet. 

I have to admit, that is one thing I'm curious about when Darkness cults comes out, hopefully next year.

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

You have to have a relationship with tribe and the temple. This is what the means when the requirements say 'there must be an opening for a Rune Lord'.

for me it is more than having a relationship. There should be a need of a rune lord. So a lot of options are possible

GM is generous and says there is a position

GM is "open" and says one Karrg'son dislikes (or hates, or just wants to prove he is a better troll than the pc) and challenges (to death of course) the pc

or

PC proposes some trichery (a hunt, a training, ... oups accident... an alcohol cargo, a feast ... oups poison...) to "open" some position

Of course PC may duel a KS but maybe if he has not good reason, the mothers may be angry

[svensson]

19 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me it is more than having a relationship. There should be a need of a rune lord. So a lot of options are possible

GM is generous and says there is a position

GM is "open" and says one Karrg'son dislikes (or hates, or just wants to prove he is a better troll than the pc) and challenges (to death of course) the pc

or

PC proposes some trichery (a hunt, a training, ... oups accident... an alcohol cargo, a feast ... oups poison...) to "open" some position

Of course PC may duel a KS but maybe if he has not good reason, the mothers may be angry

Most temples want more Rune Lords, but can they support another Rune Lord. Every cult wants more talented members, but how much clergy a given clan and temple can support will be one of the major factors in a PC getting the job.

And most of what you're saying here is in the 'roleplaying to gain enough status, reputation, and power within the clan and temple' stuff that every PC would have to do become a Rune level.

Remember, a clan or tribe donates enough resources to the temple to support the clergy. Using an Orlanthi tribe as an example, every Rune level priest or rune lord is 5-8 hides of land that isn't going to the carl-class farmers of the clan, but still has to be worked by people doing their annual two weeks' service.

So yes, there is a lot of factors in deciding who gets to be a Rune level in any society or cult.

[Jeff]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:11 PM, Erol of Backford said:

So we have human Kitori, we have human Arkati, maybe some of these might be one and the same?

The Only Old One favored the Kitori and even allowed them to reside with him in the Palace of Black Glass.

Some human Kitori may be able to transform into trolls from what I have read, of course I don't recall where...

The Kitori served envoys and collected the Shadow Tribute.

The GtG say there are about 5k Kitori in Troll Woods. It also says there are about 41k trolls at the Shadow Plateau. Are the 5k Kitori a mix of trolls and humans or are the Troll Woods filled with trolls and the GtG didn't list them? It seems that Troll Woods is a bit large for only 5k, guessing there'd be at least 15-25k trolls in troll woods? I don't have an issue either way but thought if its called Troll Woods a few dozen might live there. Guessing the 41k trolls on the Shadow Plateau might be including any in Troll Woods. Say 15k in Troll Woods and 26k on the Plateau?

Any way, was looking at Kyger Litor Initiate, Acolyte and Karrg's Sons. I read the old Troll Cults Book from the boxed set and don't see where you actually need to be a troll. Which means you could be human, especially if you were Kitori?

You will (with some likely discrimination and bullying) be treated as a troll once you are an actual initiate.

Where I am going with this is could a female human Kitori, one like say of Naimless' stature, size and abilities who was a Kyger Litor initiate apply to be a Karrg's Son? Their skin might become a little grey and they may have some rudimentary tusks grow..

I imagine it'd be interesting... and hey didn't Naimless have 2 troll boyfriends at the same time? Of course I don't recall where I read this either but thinking one of their names was Taksag whom she bested in combat and also became a Humakti... that's another story.

I only see one issue and that is that Karrg's Sons must eat a relative each High Holy day... well er um, could they adopt a herdman and eat it? I suppose also if they were recognized as a troll all trolls would be family... what does trolkin taste like? 

They also could sponsor a Trollball team which would be great for the Backford Ballers trollball team I've been working on.

Thoughts and positive comments (negative as well but they are not liked nearly as much) and thank you all.

 

To become an initiate of Kyger Litor means becoming a troll in all the ways that matter to Kyger Litor. Now let's not base this on the extreme case of someone casting Becoming Troll and stacking it with enough Extension to be a troll throughout the initiation process. That's certainly possible but not really the question.

A normal human initiate of Argan Argar needs to go through the extremely painful process of mutilation and rebirth that makes one a troll. Survive it and you are a troll and an initiate of Kyger Litor. Die, and you become a nice meal for the priestess. Once you are an initiate of Kyger Litor, you could become a Karrg's Son if you are able to show you have the power and the skill.

[Erol of Backford]

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Troll Adoption rites are literally at the end of the Kyger Litor cult writeup in Troll Gods.

I had not read the whole Troll Cults Book for about 30 years, mine is in pristine condition. I recalled the rebirth ritual and so found it strange that the top of p.45 says "such as a human, can only be initiated through a difficult adoption ceremony, symbolized by rolling POWx3 or lesson a 1d100..." I was thinking it wasn't right and so asked. I didn't do a deep dive into the 1000's of pages of books I have, most I do not have PDF's of and as the old days' indexes are not as detailed as current word processing capabilities it is difficult for me to find things... If I'd read a few more pages I'd have seen it. So thank you.

What got me wondering was that it states at the top of p.45 "a slight physical change" " a human might grow rudimentary tusks and gain greyish skin" which doesn't seem like shapechange/rebirth into troll or anything that drastic. Again it had me wondering. I knew and had read the Arkat rebirth article. I more recently had read about Minaryth Purple's venture to the Ontuli Caverns, posted Ontuli Caverns & Grub Farm as well as other items trollish. I have always loved to hate but respect the power of trolls when playing Rune Quest. A 2d8 troll maul and a d6 or even 2d6 damage bonus crushed many PC skulls back in the day. So much fun can be had with trolls. I'd would imagine that with a 40% chance of irreversible permanent death most players would not wish to risk a beloved PC trying to be a troll. Why not just make a troll character to begin with...

Anyway other discussion about the Shadow Sacrifices and Trolls Chaos Ghouls had me wondering about the Temple of the Wooden Sword and if Naimless had been adopted as a troll or not, I still don't recall where I read she had 2 troll boyfriends at the same time but not knowing if it was written somewhere or not doesn't matter. It's all about game fun. Maybe she had been "adopted" but not "reborn", back then in the late 70's being "adopted" as a troll may not have been figured out yet, let alone written down anywhere? "Has that town been named yet? Not yet." Maybe Naimless had slightly grey skin, maybe she had 2 troll boyfriends. I am thinking Naimless having had grey skin wouldn't have mattered as she could have had several different colors, with green, blue, gray, etc. skin colors, that's Glorantha.

22 hours ago, svensson said:

He would have to be male; Karrg's Sons are males only cult;

L Mhy wear fake beards when women, Light Son's may be women. Why not let a troll-girlfriend Amazon with blueish-grey skin be a troll adoptee? YGWV for sure.

22 hours ago, svensson said:

You have to have a relationship with tribe and the temple.

Naimless was a priestess of the Sarzdof war god so that is a good relationship, I am guessing. Londra would have been more the size of a trollkin but Naimless could have likely wrestled with the best of them?

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the mothers may be angry

Of course the mothers would be angry if some human female swaggers in and removes the head of one of the clans' best warriors. Iron sword, double damage on head, etc. but maybe this female human offed a great warrior of an enemy clan and earned respect helping the troll clan to be adopted by...

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Most temples want more Rune Lords, but can they support another Rune Lord. Every cult wants more talented members, but how much clergy a given clan and temple can support will be one of the major factors in a PC getting the job.

Totally agree, so maybe status is given in name only, the clan is not actually supporting the PC Rune Lord and so they have more freedom to wander a bit, they still come for ceremonies but are sent on missions, similar to acolytes, missions to risky to send an actual troll on? "The Expendables"

They get payment in useless trollkin or ham beetles?

Still trying to figure out how they select relatives to eat unless all trollkin are considered relatives and so any one of them could be barbecued? 

So, better to be an acolyte of say Argan Argar then get eaten trying to be a Kyger Litor initiate on the path to maybe becoming a Karrg's Son.

(I do think a human female Karrg's Son - Amazon would be badass. Maybe Badass would follow her around... YGWV.)

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

That's certainly possible but not really the question.

I agree the trolls would likely know the magic was there and of course Kyger Litor would, but possibly there is some Kyger Litor motive for letting the human, maybe a Kitori be very close to the a troll clan...

A It's all based on more game fun and not canon of course. I think the original intent was that the game has us all telling stories which should be fun. I am just rambling at this point so I'll stop.

Thank you all, as always for the extensive input!

 

 

 

[svensson]

@Erol of Backford YGWV and all that, but Uz females are usually channeled into the matriarch /high priestess roles. Furthermore, it's highly unlikely that a tribe of Uz-folk would be happy with a breeding female running around adventuring. They're meant to be leaders and magicians, the real heroines of the tribe and beating heart of Uzdom, so let the males go out into the Hurtplace and do all that dumb stuff!

The Kyger Litor Adoption Rite literally changes the adoptee's nature, both magically and physically, so it's not beyond the pale to think that a human woman undergoing the Rite would also inherit the Curse of Kin. Given her smaller Size, I can't imagine what birthing a litter of enlo or a full sized uzko child would be like.

Edited 1 hour ago by svensson

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why not let a troll-girlfriend Amazon with blueish-grey skin be a troll adoptee?

like @svensson, because female trolls are higher (at least in importance, and often in power) than a male troll

Kaarg's son is probably the best position for a male in KL cult, but they are here to protect females, in particular those who demonstrate their ability to bear "good" trolls (aka not trollkin).

However a female troll could be a very important warrior I think, most precious than any KS, with all the magic of KL, with her own spells as a priestess, and with her husband and/or bodybuards who could be.. Kaarg's sons 😛 

 

For me, to answer your fun you have a lot of possibility :

1) change a lot the background (no need to be a troll to join KL). That's not an issue, it is your glorantha (not mine but we don't play together, so no problem)

2) decide as a gm that your human succeeds to become a true troll (why roll a dice, when it is what everyone wants the success ? if you want to roll you may roll to know how long are her tusks teeth, how far from humanity is now her (beatifull for a troll - they don't care in fact-) (deformed for a human) body (determine what is the penalty of the CHA for a bargain with human for example). Etc

(I m not sure but as a true troll, you have darksee now, ok your eyes were probably transformed with the chewing of one of your new "brother" but now you can feel the world in the darkness - not only eyes provides darksee but eyes are now troll )

3) do not follow the standard "Kaarg Son runelord of KL" path but probably, in the Kitori cult of Humakt, you may find a subcult of a troll hero who where both Sword and Kaarg's son, and offer some spells to the humakti subcult. You don't break the canon, you add something.

 

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by French Desperate WindChild

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

Most temples want more Rune Lords, but can they support another Rune Lord

ah I m not so sure 🙂 (maybe not the good topic, but I don't know how to do a ?? fork ?? of the posts)

I mean, as you said, there are all the requirements to support a rune lord.

But, my point is not only on the "material" aspect. I includes the social aspect :

A cult is a hierarchy, there is a high rune level (priest or lord) then N-1 rune levels, then N-2 rune levels obeying to this or that N-1, etc..

Now, as a leader, if you have too many N-1, what tasks will you give to all these people ? how will you offer hope of promotion if every one is already promoted (except the last one, your own position) ? It is better to have very powerful initiates (now they have almost the same powers than rune lords) and give the opportunity to your RL to manage them (spending time on their people is better than spending time to find a opportunity to take your own position)

that's create emulation, that's offer opportunity to see their failures  (and use it when you will be challenged) etc...

 

so of course you need more powerful people, but that what you want for your initiates, you need the right number of RL.

 

I think you know much more than me on military topics (so I aplogize if I propose wrong picture here) :

Considering that "a cult wants more rune lords" (without any other reasons than "more RL") is for me the same thing that "an army wants more generals"

Of course, if you have more soldiers/initiates than before, at the end of the day you need more generals/rune lords but because all your army/cult evolves, not because it is fine to have more and more good strategist (or any word describing the difference between an officer and a soldier)

 

and add all the politics behind, why this one and not this one, why always the other bloodline, etc... why so many holy warriors when  we are in peace, they just eat our work, etc...

 

 

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Naimless was a priestess of the Sarzdof war god so that is a good relationship, I am guessing.

Naimless is a Humakti. For a period of time, Humakt gained the upper hand vs. ZZ among the Sazdorf, but I think that's a relatively short time window.

By 1618, Naimless is the Champion of the Colymar under King Kangharl. Whether or not she has any outstanding relationships with remaining trolls is an open question, but given Humakti antipathy to ZZ, it would not likely be with any troll affiliated with ZZ.

[Erol of Backford]

16 hours ago, svensson said:

a breeding female running around adventuring

was thinking they'd stayed a human female, albeit a very large one, maybe Agimori? The female trolls would likely care less if she were running around, not a true troll even thought she'd be a decent fighter. Weird to think 

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Considering that "a cult wants more rune lords" (without any other reasons than "more RL") is for me the same thing that "an army wants more generals"

You have a good point. I am still in the mind that only acolytes, priests and runelords have reusable rune magic as in RQ3 but now as most start with some reusable its not as critical to be rune lord, especially if you wish to wander and have more freedom?

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Naimless is a Humakti.

Totally.

Was just using her as an example of how a female human (of larger than average size) was working as a warrior, accepted into a troll clan, albeit for a shorter time period. 

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Whether or not she has any outstanding relationships with remaining trolls is an open question, but given Humakti antipathy to ZZ, it would not likely be with any troll affiliated with ZZ.

Her troll associates (boyfriends/lovers?) were also Humakti... without question IMG.