Solar Esrolia

[Jeff]

In Sartar (and other lands dominated by the Orlanth cult), Orlanth is Ernalda's clear favorite. It's obvious to everyone. When we celebrate Ernalda with festivals and the husband gods show up, Orlanth is always strongly present. He almost always wins the marriage contests (it is considered shocking when another husband deity wins a marriage contest), and in Orlanth's ceremonies, Ernalda always has her key place. The other husband gods are acknowledged, but they aren't particularly important.

In Esrolia, Orlanth is clearly the most popular and important husband (his local cult is at least twice the size of all the other husbands put together), but the other husbands have a strong presence, especially Argan Argar (whose local cult is a third the size of Orlanth's). The other husbands often win the marriage contests, probably on average about one in three times. 

In the Sun Dome temples, Yelmalio is the favoured husband deity of Ernalda. Again she has her key place, and the goddess is revered. Even in Sun Dome lands, Orlanth wins the marriage contest about as often as Yelmalio, signifying the role that Air and Light have making the world fertile (and reflecting that the Sun Dome lands are little oases of solar-worship in a sea of storm-worshippers).

Among the Grazelanders, Yelm and Orlanth both compete for the favour of Ernalda. Yelm is the favoured of the horse people, Orlanth the favoured of the local farmers and traders. The Feathered Horse Queen has chosen Orlanth two-thirds of the time, and chose the Lunar way once.

Now out among the elves, Flamal is celebrated as Ernalda's favoured husband. He competes with Yelmalio, and Orlanth rarely shows up (and if Argan Argar shows up, that is a cause for consternation).

The constant in all of these is Ernalda's presence. Who the favoured husband is depends on the local population - in most lands, that is Orlanth because in most of the places Ernalda is worshiped, Orlanth is the most popular husband deity.

 

[Jeff]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In Sartar (and other lands dominated by the Orlanth cult), Orlanth is Ernalda's clear favorite. It's obvious to everyone. When we celebrate Ernalda with festivals and the husband gods show up, Orlanth is always strongly present. He almost always wins the marriage contests (it is considered shocking when another husband deity wins a marriage contest), and in Orlanth's ceremonies, Ernalda always has her key place. The other husband gods are acknowledged, but they aren't particularly important.

In Esrolia, Orlanth is clearly the most popular and important husband (his local cult is at least twice the size of all the other husbands put together), but the other husbands have a strong presence, especially Argan Argar (whose local cult is a third the size of Orlanth's). The other husbands often win the marriage contests, probably on average about one in three times. 

In the Sun Dome temples, Yelmalio is the favoured husband deity of Ernalda. Again she has her key place, and the goddess is revered. Even in Sun Dome lands, Orlanth wins the marriage contest about as often as Yelmalio, signifying the role that Air and Light have making the world fertile (and reflecting that the Sun Dome lands are little oases of solar-worship in a sea of storm-worshippers).

Among the Grazelanders, Yelm and Orlanth both compete for the favour of Ernalda. Yelm is the favoured of the horse people, Orlanth the favoured of the local farmers and traders. The Feathered Horse Queen has chosen Orlanth two-thirds of the time, and chose the Lunar way once.

Now out among the elves, Flamal is celebrated as Ernalda's favoured husband. He competes with Yelmalio, and Orlanth rarely shows up (and if Argan Argar shows up, that is a cause for consternation).

The constant in all of these is Ernalda's presence. Who the favoured husband is depends on the local population - in most lands, that is Orlanth because in most of the places Ernalda is worshiped, Orlanth is the most popular husband deity.

 

And perhaps this helps explain why Esrolian is considered an "Orlanthi land" - Orlanth is the most popular "men's god." Although his cult is only about a third of all adult men, it still has a plurality. Argan Argar, the next largest, has a third of the cultists as Orlanth.  

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

And perhaps this helps explain why Esrolian is considered an "Orlanthi land" - Orlanth is the most popular "men's god." Although his cult is only about a third of all adult men, it still has a plurality. Argan Argar, the next largest, has a third of the cultists as Orlanth.  

And I think this also explains why I really don't have any idea what you are getting at with "Solar Esrolia".  Want Esrolia to be a "Solar land"?  Well, start be getting rid of half or more of Esrolia's over 200k Orlanth initiates and replace them with 100k or more Yelmalio initiates. To put that in context, there are maybe 130k Yelmalio initiates in the whole of the Lunar Empire, so that's not going to happen.

You might have better luck with making a "Dark Esrolia," as you at least already start with 80k Argan Argar initiates in Esrolia and the Shadow Plateau. In fact, back in the Second Age when the Only Old One still ruled, the Argan Argar cult was likely influential enough to be the favoured husband nearly half of the time - certainly whenever the Only Old One showed up! But Belintar killed the Only Old One three centuries ago and the Argan Argar cult has greatly declined since then (and maybe for longer than that).

[Techpriest]

49 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And I think this also explains why I really don't have any idea what you are getting at with "Solar Esrolia".  Want Esrolia to be a "Solar land"?  Well, start be getting rid of half or more of Esrolia's over 200k Orlanth initiates and replace them with 100k or more Yelmalio initiates. To put that in context, there are maybe 130k Yelmalio initiates in the whole of the Lunar Empire, so that's not going to happen.

You might have better luck with making a "Dark Esrolia," as you at least already start with 80k Argan Argar initiates in Esrolia and the Shadow Plateau. In fact, back in the Second Age when the Only Old One still ruled, the Argan Argar cult was likely influential enough to be the favoured husband nearly half of the time - certainly whenever the Only Old One showed up! But Belintar killed the Only Old One three centuries ago and the Argan Argar cult has greatly declined since then (and maybe for longer than that).

A little off topic Jeff, but is there a Lightfore/Yelmalio cult in Kralroela, or is that spot taken by Daruda? I'm just curious since both Daruda and Yelmalio are associated with Lightfore.

[radmonger]

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Well, start be getting rid of half or more of Esrolia's over 200k Orlanth initiates and replace them with 100k or more Yelmalio initiates.

Something is not adding up for me. Marriage contests are local, like the Garhound Context, not nationwide, rigjht? But the list of Sun County rulers doesn't have a majority of Orlanthi on it.

The post-Monrogh Yelmalio cult seems, since the writeup in CoP, explictly designed to somewhat bypass the power of the Marriage Contest. Light Sons may only marry Ernaldan priestesses, and Light Priests may not marry, or remain married to Ernaldans. Light Sons must be accepted by the temple hierarchy. So it seems the Ernalda temple will be presented with a very short list of candidates, all pre-approved by the Sun Dome Temple hierarchy. All they can do is accept one of those approved candidates, or pick an irrelevant powerless outsider [1]. Which is a partial power of veto, not the power of choice that other Sartarites have.

In Esrolia, the 1% of Yelmalian cultists will not be evenly distributed, but, unlike Prax amd Sartar, I don't think they are concentrated in a single County that they dominate. Caladraland has 2% Yelmalians, so the logical place for them is the border region, as a rural aristocracy over Lodril farmers. perhaps in one of the small towns noted in the Guide for orchards or vineyards.

So if Esrolia Yelmalians sometimes, but not always, win, that seems more like pre-Monrogh Yelmalio, aka Elmal, than the Yelmalio of Prax and Sartar. Which is enough to make the region they are present in a kind of 'Solar Esrolia'

[1] At least, irrelevant until they come back aith an army and a 'well, _technically_'.

 

 

Edited October 7 by radmonger

[Joerg]

40 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

A little off topic Jeff, but is there a Lightfore/Yelmalio cult in Kralroela, or is that spot taken by Daruda? I'm just curious since both Daruda and Yelmalio are associated with Lightfore.

Metsyla is the Antirius of Kralorela, the Bright Phoenix.

I don't recall having seen Daruda associated with Lightfore.

[Eff]

I'm not sure what's supposed to be difficult about making a Solar Esrolia. Simplest thing in the world, next to playing mumblety-peg.

[Techpriest]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Metsyla is the Antirius of Kralorela, the Bright Phoenix.

I don't recall having seen Daruda associated with Lightfore.

In the Prosepedia, Lightfore is mentioned as a home of Daruda, and it's also in the Well too. 

[Jeff]

36 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

Something is not adding up for me. Marriage contests are local, like the Garhound Context, not nationwide, rigjht? But the list of Sun County rulers doesn't have a majority of Orlanthi on it.

The post-Monrogh Yelmalio cult seems, since the writeup in CoP, explictly designed to somewhat bypass the power of the Marriage Contest. Light Sons may only marry Ernaldan priestesses, and Light Priests may not marry, or remain married to Ernaldans. Light Sons must be accepted by the temple hierarchy. So it seems the Ernalda temple will be presented with a very short list of candidates, all pre-approved by the Sun Dome Temple hierarchy. All they can do is accept one of those approved candidates, or pick an irrelevant powerless outsider [1]. Which is a partial power of veto, not the power of choice that other Sartarites have.

In Esrolia, the 1% of Yelmalian cultists will not be evenly distributed, but, unlike Prax amd Sartar, I don't think they are concentrated in a single County that they dominate. Caladraland has 2% Yelmalians, so the logical place for them is the border region, as a rural aristocracy over Lodril farmers. perhaps in one of the small towns noted in the Guide for orchards or vineyards.

So if Esrolia Yelmalians sometimes, but not always, win, that seems more like pre-Monrogh Yelmalio, aka Elmal, than the Yelmalio of Prax and Sartar. Which is enough to make the region they are present in a kind of 'Solar Esrolia'

[1] At least, irrelevant until they come back aith an army and a 'well, _technically_'.

 

 

Typically, the Ernalda temple isn't presented with a list of candidates - individual candidates compete for the favour of the goddess (well her priestess representative at least). Now maybe an individual temple hierarchy has enough control over its leadership that they can keep otherwise qualified Rune Lords from participating, but that's rare. 

In Esrolia, even where the Yelmalion cultists win, they are still the rare Solar in a sea of Earth and Air cultists. They may be Ernalda's favorite, but they don't have a ton of independent authority outside of their cult (and whatever they get from being Ernalda's favorite).

[scott-martin]

If all these other types of husband didn't occasionally win the heart of an Ernalda initiate now and then, they would have either died out or discovered in their desperation alternative forms of household formation and reproduction. Statistically there's going to be a few sky worshippers in the mix, a few darkness, a few sea and even a couple of elves, some non-elemental people. The law of Ernalda is that the initiate gets to pick what she wants and when that law is broken the punishments are severe. 

When the initiates rely on any other criterion you start to bleed into other systems like Dendara. Some say Dendara is where Ernalda is going, where she ends up when she's a little older and a little more "pragmatic." Others say no way in hell. The Red Goddess, for better or worse, was born in an age when direct access to Esrolia was cut off. All she knew was Dendara and her sisters, cousins, aunts. And maybe Dendara winks and smiles a secret smile but there are no words in old pelorian (which is not "pelandan," itself a wig of snakes) for that wink and that smile. It might have once been a sadder smile than it is today.

Esrolia will only be a solar land when the earth cults are toppled, which could happen but then it might not be "esrolia" any more. There is plenty of room for solar dudes in their system in the meantime as long as they behave themselves. Light Sons can often behave themselves. (They're often culturally "orlanth" anyway, for what that's worth.) Light Priests find it impossible to behave themselves and so ritually opt out of the marriage system. 

Light Ladies can do whatever the hell they want but that's neither here nor there. 

Arcana of the holy country suggest that Esrolia will not be a solar land for at least another aion, maybe 400-600 years. First comes the aion of earth . . . believe it or not, you haven't seen it yet. A woman will emerge from the dirt and unify all the elemental aspects of the land under her universal regime. That moment is approaching but first all the philosophical wreckage of hot earth and red earth and all these heresies needs to get itself settled.

One last enigma since I'm here: there was always a solar suitor even before the storm element was recognized. This means that "solar" is often defined in Esrolia as what the initiate doesn't like, the candidate who makes a good show but just doesn't live up in some crucial way. Missing the right stuff, "too cooked" or "too yelmic" the old ladies scoff. In my experience they are not wrong. Communities where the husband is already too cooked tend to evolve into dendara centers. Esrolia, while ancient, is just not there yet (if ever).

Edited October 8 by scott-martin
one more thing

[davecake]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:19 AM, Joerg said:

Mokato seems to be quite solar, too, but has a strong Island deity outshining local sun worship.

Yes, the Emperor of the Golden Empire was an incarnation of Govmeranen, a sun deity cognate to Murharzarm. But the local deity, Hobimarong, whose ability is just to do things without making a mistake, seems to just be insanely useful and a fine deity to found an empire on, while Govmeranen became increasingly mired in the necessity of trying to do the job of being a divine emperor just as perfectly, and thus became trapped in endless ritual. observances. 

(and honestly, under the RQ rules Hobimarong really is just insanely great. Their one real spell, with its many variations, Precise [skill] means while is in effect a normal success becomes a special. Great as a combat cult, especially for archers (Slash Slash Impale), a crafter cult, a sailor cult, a trader cult, etc.)

[None]

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

So if Esrolia Yelmalians sometimes, but not always, win, that seems more like pre-Monrogh Yelmalio, aka Elmal, than the Yelmalio of Prax and Sartar. Which is enough to make the region they are present in a kind of 'Solar Esrolia'

That could work. I mean it's more of a solar region within Esrolia than a solar Esrolia but I'd say It still counts 😊. It would also create less weaves and be easier to implement.

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

[1] At least, irrelevant until they come back aith an army and a 'well, _technically_'.

A classic. No really, I'm pretty sure getting technical legitimacy and then returning with an army is a classic. I also makes for god drama and a useful plot point.

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Some say Dendara is where Ernalda is going, where she ends up when she's a little older and a little more "pragmatic." Others say no way in hell.

Well there is pragmatic and then there is pragmatic. I'm guessing the we're talking about her is a 'I you you cant beat them or it is to much effort to topple them just joi- marry them instead'. kind of pragmatic. Personally I've always been of the opinion that Ernalda and Dendara should be two different goddesses and I'm not sure what I feel about this 'they are each other's shadow' deal yet. I guess it depends on how it's used and what can be done with it.

Although it does open up an interesting question: 'Do any other gods have shadows of themselves like that?'

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This means that "solar" is often defined in Esrolia as what the initiate doesn't like, the candidate who makes a good show but just doesn't live up in some crucial way. Missing the right stuff, "too cooked" or "too yelmic" the old ladies scoff. In my experience they are not wrong.

For some reason I feel the urge to mention that stormy relationships rarely end well and are usually very exhausting so maybe the earth should look elsewhere. Although personally I feel that marrying someone who could look at you as food is a bad idea (and for you Lunars out there,  I would question the sanity of anyone keeping the crimson bat as a pet) so I guess that only leaves water. But since water seeks to drown the earth that seem like a bad idea too.

No wonder Pamaltea is so much calmer and more stable than Genertela.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Hobimarong, whose ability is just to do things without making a mistake, seems to just be insanely useful and a fine deity to found an empire on

That seems insanely overpowered to me.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Their one real spell, with its many variations, Precise [skill] means while is in effect a normal success becomes a special

That's just 😲. How much did it cost to use?

Edited October 8 by None

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, scott-martin said:

All she knew was Dendara and her sisters, cousins, aunts. And maybe Dendara winks and smiles a secret smile but there are no words in old pelorian … for that wink and that smile.

Spoiler

It is a Woody Allen flick, right?

The wink and the smile because it takes three “sisters” to make one Goddess?

• ORIA — “Oh, yes, I have many ‘husbands’.”
• DENDARA — “No, darling, there has only ever been you.”
• GORGORMA — “If you ask again, I will bite it off.”

At least two thirds of the Goddess play chess, and presumably with some guile.

Spoiler

I wonder whether the Bat isn’t the RG’s Gorgorma — “trust me, it’ll be scarier if we put all the teeth at the front … and wings, gotta have wings” — and the “true” mother of Yara Aranis.

Perhaps Ernalda’s all-the-‘husbands’-all-the-time vs. “you’re my favourite” problem comes from a designer desire to have modern Ernalda as the “true” face of the Goddess, rather than having all the aspects on an equal footing (or as fronts for an unknowable Goddess-behind-the-Goddess)?

Spoiler

“Sigmund, I have here something I would like you to take a look at.”

Edited October 8 by mfbrandi

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, None said:

Although it does open up an interesting question: 'Do any other gods have shadows of themselves like that?'

IMG they all do (Cult Compatibility hints at various degrees of shade) but conventional initiates usually relate to the shadow as competitor or enemy unless there's some kind of bridging experience that we can fold into experimental heroquesting.

The sun is the worst at this because solar consciousness projects light in all visible directions and so when it looks out all it sees is the lit radius of the world and pockets of resistance. True others are elsewhere and when they emerge it tends to come as an unspeakable shock. Other forms of consciousness can have their antagonisms but the world is rarely quite so binary . . . it's possible for them to meet their shadow on the road and have a conversation.

This is relevant to the goddess hinge because IMG the reciprocal initiation rule swings mostly one way. You can start out with Ernalda consciousness and your life takes you into a Dendara type of place. Fine! The initiation is reciprocal in that direction and you can share that woman's work (Kate Bush reference), borrow a cup of sugar from them, get invited to the couvade or knitting circle or whatever. All you have to do is give up the external possibility of having multiple husbands in your lifetime or much of a presence within the patriarchy.

But once you're in there, it's harder to get out. Maybe Ernalda will take you if you can find your way back there. The women you leave behind won't want to hear from you though.  That door closes. You become a cautionary tale, a story crafted deliberately to keep everyone within Dendara once they get there. Stand by your man.

In the modern empire this is finessed with easier reciprocal initiation with the cults of the Valare Addi reconstruction and with the red goddess complex. That's what they're interested in now. I don't think Deezola is fully reciprocal with Ernalda but that's a more complicated story.

The red goddess being "red" but also black and white reveals something secret that was taken from Dendara historically and needed to return in another form. Where does the generational turn from maiden to crone go? When I was a child I made the callow observation that "the triune goddess is white and red and black depending on the day but green all over." This is basic tantra but I think in contemporary glorantha studies the "green" of the immanent woman who transcends generational / generative masks is Ernalda. Dendara is only interested in wives.
 

2 hours ago, None said:

For some reason I feel the urge to mention that stormy relationships rarely end well and are usually very exhausting so maybe the earth should look elsewhere.

This is part of what keeps life exciting! It reminds me of the line from the Virgin Suicides: we knew finally that the girls were really women in disguise, that they understood love and even death, and that our job was merely to create the noise that seemed to fascinate them.

Not saying their system is perfect (the Lisbon sisters clearly did not end well) but that's how it goes in Esrolia right now. By law I cannot interfere with their freedom to choose.

I was a little too mean about the overcooked though. A better way to say it might be that the goal of an Ernalda marriage is children and someone like a Lodril, an earth king whose fire has been channeled into useful heat, fun instead of violence. But that's clearly who Asrelia likes, she's older and makes different choices.

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

IMG they all do (Cult Compatibility hints at various degrees of shade) but conventional initiates usually relate to the shadow as competitor or enemy unless there's some kind of bridging experience that we can fold into experimental heroquesting.

The sun is the worst at this because solar consciousness projects light in all visible directions and so when it looks out all it sees is the lit radius of the world and pockets of resistance. True others are elsewhere and when they emerge it tends to come as an unspeakable shock. Other forms of consciousness can have their antagonisms but the world is rarely quite so binary . . . it's possible for them to meet their shadow on the road and have a conversation.

This is relevant to the goddess hinge because IMG the reciprocal initiation rule swings mostly one way. You can start out with Ernalda consciousness and your life takes you into a Dendara type of place. Fine! The initiation is reciprocal in that direction and you can share that woman's work (Kate Bush reference), borrow a cup of sugar from them, get invited to the couvade or knitting circle or whatever. All you have to do is give up the external possibility of having multiple husbands in your lifetime or much of a presence within the patriarchy.

But once you're in there, it's harder to get out. Maybe Ernalda will take you if you can find your way back there. The women you leave behind won't want to hear from you though.  That door closes. You become a cautionary tale, a story crafted deliberately to keep everyone within Dendara once they get there. Stand by your man.

In the modern empire this is finessed with easier reciprocal initiation with the cults of the Valare Addi reconstruction and with the red goddess complex. That's what they're interested in now. I don't think Deezola is fully reciprocal with Ernalda but that's a more complicated story.

The red goddess being "red" but also black and white reveals something secret that was taken from Dendara historically and needed to return in another form. Where does the generational turn from maiden to crone go? When I was a child I made the callow observation that "the triune goddess is white and red and black depending on the day but green all over." This is basic tantra but I think in contemporary glorantha studies the "green" of the immanent woman who transcends generational / generative masks is Ernalda. Dendara is only interested in wives.
 

This is part of what keeps life exciting! It reminds me of the line from the Virgin Suicides: we knew finally that the girls were really women in disguise, that they understood love and even death, and that our job was merely to create the noise that seemed to fascinate them.

Not saying their system is perfect (the Lisbon sisters clearly did not end well) but that's how it goes in Esrolia right now. By law I cannot interfere with their freedom to choose.

I was a little too mean about the overcooked though. A better way to say it might be that the goal of an Ernalda marriage is children and someone like a Lodril, an earth king whose fire has been channeled into useful heat, fun instead of violence. But that's clearly who Asrelia likes, she's older and makes different choices.

And Asrelia and Lodril have a stressful relationship. Lodril, greedy as always, tried to drive Asrelia from within the Earth with his heat. And so Asrelia befriended Kyger Litor and her children, who defeated Lodril. But Asrelia's never had much use for Harmony. 

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And Asrelia and Lodril have a stressful relationship. Lodril, greedy as always, tried to drive Asrelia from within the Earth with his heat. And so Asrelia befriended Kyger Litor and her children, who defeated Lodril. But Asrelia's never had much use for Harmony. 

However they've figured out to make that work, I am definitely not getting in the way of that!

Archie enlists Edith to help cook corned beef and cabbage for a St. Patrick's Day festival at Archie's Place. What Archie does not know is that Edith has come down with an acute case of phlebitis, and that she was told to stay off her feet. Edith does not want to tell Archie, afraid she will let him down. Finally, Edith's phlebitis catches up with her, and she tells Archie she cannot walk, and to call Dr. Shapiro.

[Techpriest]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Metsyla is the Antirius of Kralorela, the Bright Phoenix.

I don't recall having seen Daruda associated with Lightfore.

Another followup on this Jeorg, apparently the God-Learners identified Yelmalio/Lightfore with Metsyla, but we know that they've been somewhat wrong before this about the relationships between deities. The reason I'm hesitant on identifying Metsyla with Yelmalio is the Rune differences. Mastery, Light, and Harmony shares only one with Yelmalio (Light) and the rest isn't really there. There's more that Jeff talked about here regarding Metsyla which makes me also question the link between Metsyla and Yelmalio - it doesn't come near the Pentan version (Kargzant) and while it matches Antirius as the successor of Yelm, it lacks more of the other follow up/associated ideas. Metsyla is also closely linked to Illumination in a way Yelmalio isn't (I'm quoting here from the Prosopaedia)

Quote

Metsyla was appointed by HeenMaroun to teach spiritual truths to all who asked. Metsyla never left the site of his creation, and he spread his influence over Kralorela. Though Metsyla was always clearsighted in his enlightenment, he never learned to be close to things, or to be wise, or to search his inner feelings for their truths. Similar traits mark his worshipers and have plagued the region for all its history....
He is usually shown as a perfect sphere dressed in voluminous billowing robes with seventeen red ribbons on the empty sleeves. Sometimes Metsyla is rendered in a human form with three eyes; two closed but with the third, upper eye, open. He usually floats above the ground.

If anything, in appearance and in description, he's closer to Dayzatar (though again, rune differences). From the Prosapedia again (I italicized the matching descriptions here) -

Quote

Dayzatar is the God of the Sky and Above, the God of Invisible Wisdom, Star-seer, and Master of Purity. Dayzatar, the Shining Sky, was once situated much closer to the world and was more accessible to his worshipers. During the Gods War, Dayzatar retreated from the world, setting himself far away in space and worship. His priests now rely on secrets of mysticism beyond normal understanding to maintain their belief. Dayzatar is usually portrayed as
the starry vault, or as a bearded man. He is never depicted touching the ground. He carries the staff of priests.

Dayzatar is closer to illumination than most, but there's another god that seems to align with Metsyla more - a god that was destroyed in the God Time - Rashorna. And, we have another god depicted with Light and Mastery runes and Light and Harmony runes, who is also  god(s) of illumination, who while you could argue was clear sighted never was wise or close to things - Nysalor/Gbaji. The similarities of Nysalor to Metsyla in depiction in human form are similar. From the Lunar Way book:

Quote

He is depicted in Pelorian art as a radiant man with a third eye, floating above the ground in a pose of cross-legged meditation... Both Nysalor and Gbaji are often pictured with a third eye (of Enlightenment) upon their forehead.

I would argue that Metsyla is not Yelmalio. Metsyla in action and in philosophy is very different than the Cold Sun. The Cold Sun interacts directly with the world, had fire and lost it. Metsyla was a spiritual teacher distant from the world. This is closer to Rashorna and to Dayzatar, and to Nysalor somewhat. 

 

TL;DR - Metsyla is never directly linked in the Prosopaedia to Yelmalio, is linked to them via the God Learners, is not linked to Lightfore in the same way as Daruda is, and it could very well be there is no Yelmalio/Lightfore cult in Kralorela in a way the rest of Genertela understands it and/or it's a tangental part of the Daruda cult as it's his celestial palace

Also this is way off topic for the idea of a Solar Esrolia but it's at least interesting theory crafting. 

Edited October 8 by Techpriest

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, Techpriest said:

Another followup on this Jeorg, apparently the God-Learners identified Yelmalio/Lightfore with Metsyla,

Always nice when the other God Learners approve of one's theories... 😉

18 hours ago, Techpriest said:

 we know that they've been somewhat wrong before this about the relationships between deities.

Oh, definitely. And yet, we are told again and again that they were also right fairly often, or that they did their damnedest to make their identifications right. There were experiments going spectacularly wrong, both the Goddess Switch in Maniria/Esrolia and the False Gods Revolt in Umathela stick out there.

On the whole, they haven't been that wrong when they didn't get too ambitious in pushing square pegs into round holes.

Lightfore is an extreme case of synthetizing deities that have well-proven different origins. And all of that happened in the early Dawn Age, when the Lightbringer missionaries had barely reached out to the Talastari, before the Bright Empire did its own (very thorough) job of identifying a huge number of local cults as aspects of their reduced set of deities.

There was a celestial event in 110 S.T., maybe already starting the previous year(s), which is called the Bridling of Kargzant, chaining the unpredictable wanderings of Reladivus Kargzant to the nightly Sunpath opposite the Sun Disk. Prior to this event, the southeastern wanderer of the (night) sky and the fragment of Yelm had rather distinct natures, and each has their own mythology.

Reladivus started his career as the city orb of Nivorah, already for Murharzarm's Decapolis. He is one of the eight Planetary Suons born to Yelm by Dendara. He is associated with Gamara, the broken (hippogriff?) winged sun horse (mother), and he is claimed as ancestor by the horse warlords of the Arcos Valley. His area of activity coincides with sightings of Yelmalio in the troll migration stories.

Then we have Antirius, the asexual manifestation of celestial justice holding the space of Yelm above the Footstool of Raibannth after the death of Murharzarm and the dismemberment of Yelm. A stationary, floating entity of light and enlightenment.

Neither of these names had ever been seen at the first contact with Lightfore in the Wyrm's Footnotes series about the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha that got an edited reprint in the Sourcebook. That reprint was the first to state the identity of Yelmalio and Lightfore. The earlier Lightfore lore was rather light, we know that Lightfore wandered about the Lesser Darkness to aid the mortals, got into trouble so bad that Dayzatar left his aloof porch and went searching for his favorite nephew. (The Dara Happans don't seem to have any such story?)

Yelmalio on the other hand was the god of the Sun Dome, a golden reflectory sphere behind the sun, intensifying the powers of the sun but bearing no fire itself. Nothing remotely like Lightfore. His cult of Sun Dome Temples was introduced during the Bright Empire and spread all over its extent, championed by Palangio the Iron Vrok (who acquired said Iron Vrok only after having subdued the Heortlings and most other Orlanthi).

 

Eastern mythology is rather distinct from Dara Happan mythology. Its biggest surviving portion in Kralorela received a draconic make-over by Daruda and his draconic successors. Kralori draconic ur-emperor TarnGaTha gets identified with Vith, one of the nine High Gods of Eastern Creation myths, whom the God Learners accompanying the False Dragons Ring identified as Aether, the celestial court ancestor of all Fire deities. His successor HeenMaroun gets identified with Yelm by these God Learners (who were ignorant of the existance of Murharzarm the Emperor).

The sequence of Kralori rulers first got published as one of several random entries to the Jonstown Compendium in the RQ2 RuneQuest Companion, which is where we get our first encounter with Metsyla and the subsequent Kralori emperors. (Or at least the entry suggests that there was a sequence of draconic emperors towards Yanoor, the dragon emperor who takes over at the Dawn, causes the Sunstop and retires as Shang-Hsa May His Name Be Cursed takes over for the False Dragons Ring. Whether there really was a sequence or whether there was some parallel emanation of these emperors might be up for debate.)

The end of Metsyla's reign is associated with the cataclysms that drowned the ancient East. At the very least, that makes his struggles contemporary to those of the Dara Happan emperors following Murharzarm in the reign of Antirius, as much as "contemporary" makes any sense for Godtime.

 

19 hours ago, Techpriest said:

The reason I'm hesitant on identifying Metsyla with Yelmalio is the Rune differences. Mastery, Light, and Harmony shares only one with Yelmalio (Light) and the rest isn't really there.

Mastery just indicates imperial power, and can be attributed to Antirius following the Dismemberment of Yelm until he gets snuffed at the second visit to the Hill of Gold. Harmony is an expression of the Kralori empire.

And yes, I don't intend to associate the god of the Sun Dome Templars too closely with Metsyla. My identification goes for Antirius, the stationary orb above Dara Happa that sinks further and further down, getting dimmer and dimmer. Not necessarily the reborn Antirius emerging into History, joining the Lightfore who had blessed the Gray Age/Silver Age with his continuation of light and hope (but remaining apart for 110 years).

 

 

19 hours ago, Techpriest said:

There's more that Jeff talked about here regarding Metsyla which makes me also question the link between Metsyla and Yelmalio - it doesn't come near the Pentan version (Kargzant) and while it matches Antirius as the successor of Yelm, it lacks more of the other follow up/associated ideas.

Which is fine for many Lightfores prior to the Bridling of Kargzant.

I mean, if you want to make more out of Daruda claiming the Lightfore planet, where are Daruda's Pentan or Antirian credits?

There is Splendid Yamsur, rider of the Hippogriff, who is neither Pentan Kargzant nor Dara Happan Antirius, but clearly Lightfore. He actually dies at Earthfall.

 

19 hours ago, Techpriest said:

Metsyla is also closely linked to Illumination in a way Yelmalio isn't (I'm quoting here from the Prosopaedia)

And yet the cult of Yelmalio of the Sun Dome Templars is the product of the enlightened Bright Empire of Nysalor. Yelmalio Daysenerus is weirdly unknowable, emerging as the deity of the Vanchite (hill barbarian) charioteer of the Dara Happan general who broke the Compromise and his own life manifesting the deity on the battlefield of the Battle of Night and Day.

 

19 hours ago, Techpriest said:

Dayzatar is closer to illumination than most, but there's another god that seems to align with Metsyla more - a god that was destroyed in the God Time - Rashorna. And, we have another god depicted with Light and Mastery runes and Light and Harmony runes, who is also  god(s) of illumination, who while you could argue was clear sighted never was wise or close to things - Nysalor/Gbaji. The similarities of Nysalor to Metsyla in depiction in human form are similar. From the Lunar Way book:

I would argue that Metsyla is not Yelmalio. Metsyla in action and in philosophy is very different than the Cold Sun. The Cold Sun interacts directly with the world, had fire and lost it. Metsyla was a spiritual teacher distant from the world. This is closer to Rashorna and to Dayzatar, and to Nysalor somewhat. . 

And boy did the Sun Dome cultists work hard to distance themselves from their origin in the Bright Empire and the blatant high level illumination of their greatest hero Palangio.

Rashoran is also a cognate of Jernotius/a/x.

 

19 hours ago, Techpriest said:

I would argue that Metsyla is not Yelmalio. Metsyla in action and in philosophy is very different than the Cold Sun. The Cold Sun interacts directly with the world, had fire and lost it. Metsyla was a spiritual teacher distant from the world. This is closer to Rashorna and to Dayzatar, and to Nysalor somewhat.

Metsyla and Jernotius have a lot in common, yes. Another Cold Sun. There were many. Definitely not Reladivus Kargzant, but a sibling. But then, Kargzant is not Antirius. Only their powers are chained together since 110 S.T.

 

 

[Techpriest]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Always nice when the other God Learners approve of one's theories... 😉

Oh, definitely. And yet, we are told again and again that they were also right fairly often, or that they did their damnedest to make their identifications right. There were experiments going spectacularly wrong, both the Goddess Switch in Maniria/Esrolia and the False Gods Revolt in Umathela stick out there.

On the whole, they haven't been that wrong when they didn't get too ambitious in pushing square pegs into round holes.

Lightfore is an extreme case of synthetizing deities that have well-proven different origins. And all of that happened in the early Dawn Age, when the Lightbringer missionaries had barely reached out to the Talastari, before the Bright Empire did its own (very thorough) job of identifying a huge number of local cults as aspects of their reduced set of deities.

There was a celestial event in 110 S.T., maybe already starting the previous year(s), which is called the Bridling of Kargzant, chaining the unpredictable wanderings of Reladivus Kargzant to the nightly Sunpath opposite the Sun Disk. Prior to this event, the southeastern wanderer of the (night) sky and the fragment of Yelm had rather distinct natures, and each has their own mythology.

Reladivus started his career as the city orb of Nivorah, already for Murharzarm's Decapolis. He is one of the eight Planetary Suons born to Yelm by Dendara. He is associated with Gamara, the broken (hippogriff?) winged sun horse (mother), and he is claimed as ancestor by the horse warlords of the Arcos Valley. His area of activity coincides with sightings of Yelmalio in the troll migration stories.

Then we have Antirius, the asexual manifestation of celestial justice holding the space of Yelm above the Footstool of Raibannth after the death of Murharzarm and the dismemberment of Yelm. A stationary, floating entity of light and enlightenment.

Neither of these names had ever been seen at the first contact with Lightfore in the Wyrm's Footnotes series about the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha that got an edited reprint in the Sourcebook. That reprint was the first to state the identity of Yelmalio and Lightfore. The earlier Lightfore lore was rather light, we know that Lightfore wandered about the Lesser Darkness to aid the mortals, got into trouble so bad that Dayzatar left his aloof porch and went searching for his favorite nephew. (The Dara Happans don't seem to have any such story?)

Yelmalio on the other hand was the god of the Sun Dome, a golden reflectory sphere behind the sun, intensifying the powers of the sun but bearing no fire itself. Nothing remotely like Lightfore. His cult of Sun Dome Temples was introduced during the Bright Empire and spread all over its extent, championed by Palangio the Iron Vrok (who acquired said Iron Vrok only after having subdued the Heortlings and most other Orlanthi).

 

Eastern mythology is rather distinct from Dara Happan mythology. Its biggest surviving portion in Kralorela received a draconic make-over by Daruda and his draconic successors. Kralori draconic ur-emperor TarnGaTha gets identified with Vith, one of the nine High Gods of Eastern Creation myths, whom the God Learners accompanying the False Dragons Ring identified as Aether, the celestial court ancestor of all Fire deities. His successor HeenMaroun gets identified with Yelm by these God Learners (who were ignorant of the existance of Murharzarm the Emperor).

The sequence of Kralori rulers first got published as one of several random entries to the Jonstown Compendium in the RQ2 RuneQuest Companion, which is where we get our first encounter with Metsyla and the subsequent Kralori emperors. (Or at least the entry suggests that there was a sequence of draconic emperors towards Yanoor, the dragon emperor who takes over at the Dawn, causes the Sunstop and retires as Shang-Hsa May His Name Be Cursed takes over for the False Dragons Ring. Whether there really was a sequence or whether there was some parallel emanation of these emperors might be up for debate.)

The end of Metsyla's reign is associated with the cataclysms that drowned the ancient East. At the very least, that makes his struggles contemporary to those of the Dara Happan emperors following Murharzarm in the reign of Antirius, as much as "contemporary" makes any sense for Godtime.

 

Mastery just indicates imperial power, and can be attributed to Antirius following the Dismemberment of Yelm until he gets snuffed at the second visit to the Hill of Gold. Harmony is an expression of the Kralori empire.

And yes, I don't intend to associate the god of the Sun Dome Templars too closely with Metsyla. My identification goes for Antirius, the stationary orb above Dara Happa that sinks further and further down, getting dimmer and dimmer. Not necessarily the reborn Antirius emerging into History, joining the Lightfore who had blessed the Gray Age/Silver Age with his continuation of light and hope (but remaining apart for 110 years).

 

 

Which is fine for many Lightfores prior to the Bridling of Kargzant.

I mean, if you want to make more out of Daruda claiming the Lightfore planet, where are Daruda's Pentan or Antirian credits?

There is Splendid Yamsur, rider of the Hippogriff, who is neither Pentan Kargzant nor Dara Happan Antirius, but clearly Lightfore. He actually dies at Earthfall.

 

And yet the cult of Yelmalio of the Sun Dome Templars is the product of the enlightened Bright Empire of Nysalor. Yelmalio Daysenerus is weirdly unknowable, emerging as the deity of the Vanchite (hill barbarian) charioteer of the Dara Happan general who broke the Compromise and his own life manifesting the deity on the battlefield of the Battle of Night and Day.

 

And boy did the Sun Dome cultists work hard to distance themselves from their origin in the Bright Empire and the blatant high level illumination of their greatest hero Palangio.

Rashoran is also a cognate of Jernotius/a/x.

 

Metsyla and Jernotius have a lot in common, yes. Another Cold Sun. There were many. Definitely not Reladivus Kargzant, but a sibling. But then, Kargzant is not Antirius. Only their powers are chained together since 110 S.T.

With Daruda, I'm more wondering since according to the Prosopaedia (and the Well) he's linked with Lightfore the celestial object - it's supposedly where his palace is which is why I was asking the question.

Why can't anything involving Lightfore be simple? How many little suns even are there at this point that got merged into one god? Trying to keep track of this isn't easy, I think I'm going to need to break out a chart or three here to try and get things straight in my head. 

[Techpriest]

19 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

With Daruda, I'm more wondering since according to the Prosopaedia (and the Well) he's linked with Lightfore the celestial object - it's supposedly where his palace is which is why I was asking the question.

Why can't anything involving Lightfore be simple? How many little suns even are there at this point that got merged into one god? Trying to keep track of this isn't easy, I think I'm going to need to break out a chart or three here to try and get things straight in my head. 

The effort of about ten minutes trying to sort this all out, probably inaccurate. 

[Jeff]

This is a pretty big tangent, and I'd be happy if David or someone else switches this to a new thread. But the way I would view this is:

Golden Age (All): Yelm rules the cosmos until he is slain by Orlanth.

Lesser Darkness: Yelmalio, a portion of Yelm, remains in surface world providing light. Other planetary and stellar deities fight against encroaching Darkness but are snuffed out one by one.

Greater Darkness: All light extinguished except for Yelmalio, who is so dim he can barely be seen.

Grey Age: Yelmalio restored to full brightness and becomes main source of light. One by one the other planetary and stellar deities return to the Sky.

Dawn: Sun rises. Many cultures worship Yelmalio as their conduit to the returned Sun. Pure Horse People and later Dara Happa are able to directly access the Sun. Yelmalio worship continues among Dara Happens, the cattle tribes and the chariot riders, but given many names.

Gbaji Wars. A new Yelmalio cult is established in frontiers of Bright Empire as frontier garrisons for the Bright God. Cult survives the extinguishing of the Bright Empire.

Second Age. Yelmalio cult overthrows troll overlords in South Peloria. Becomes allies of the Kingdom of Dragon Pass (later the Empire of the Wyrms Friends). Yelm cult established in Prax by Pure Horse Tribe. Yelmalio cult established in Prax as allies. Yelm cult extinguished in Prax. Yelmalio cult survives.

Third Age. Yelmalio cult scattered and disunited. Era of the Many (Little) Suns. Conflict between one of the Many (Little) Suns and Orlanth Rex cult in Sartar results in some Little Sun worshipers turn to Yelm worship and Lunar alliance. Monrogh discovers that all the Many (Little) Suns are Yelmalio and not Yelm. Independent Yelmalio cult revitalized in Dragon Pass, Prax, and South Peloria. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

This is a pretty big tangent, and I'd be happy if David or someone else switches this to a new thread. But the way I would view this is:

Golden Age (All): Yelm rules the cosmos until he is slain by Orlanth.

Lesser Darkness: Yelmalio, a portion of Yelm, remains in surface world providing light. Other planetary and stellar deities fight against encroaching Darkness but are snuffed out one by one.

Greater Darkness: All light extinguished except for Yelmalio, who is so dim he can barely be seen.

Grey Age: Yelmalio restored to full brightness and becomes main source of light. One by one the other planetary and stellar deities return to the Sky.

Dawn: Sun rises. Many cultures worship Yelmalio as their conduit to the returned Sun. Pure Horse People and later Dara Happa are able to directly access the Sun. Yelmalio worship continues among Dara Happens, the cattle tribes and the chariot riders, but given many names.

Gbaji Wars. A new Yelmalio cult is established in frontiers of Bright Empire as frontier garrisons for the Bright God. Cult survives the extinguishing of the Bright Empire.

Second Age. Yelmalio cult overthrows troll overlords in South Peloria. Becomes allies of the Kingdom of Dragon Pass (later the Empire of the Wyrms Friends). Yelm cult established in Prax by Pure Horse Tribe. Yelmalio cult established in Prax as allies. Yelm cult extinguished in Prax. Yelmalio cult survives.

Third Age. Yelmalio cult scattered and disunited. Era of the Many (Little) Suns. Conflict between one of the Many (Little) Suns and Orlanth Rex cult in Sartar results in some Little Sun worshipers turn to Yelm worship and Lunar alliance. Monrogh discovers that all the Many (Little) Suns are Yelmalio and not Yelm. Independent Yelmalio cult revitalized in Dragon Pass, Prax, and South Peloria. 

Now we can assign various local names and manifestations of this in different places, but many of these are just the result of different languages. For example:
Yelm is called Yu-Kargzant by the Pentans, Somash in Teshnos, Heen-Maroun in Kralorela, etc.

Yelmalio is called Kargzant by the Pentans, Antirius by the Dara Happens, and Elmal by many Orlanth.

Shargash is called Tolat by Orlanthi scribes, Westerners, Teshnites, Pamaltelans, etc.

Nonetheless, there are established techniques by which a god recognises that they accept worship under other names and masks. These techniques were initially developed by the Theyalans of Dragon Pass, but then greatly refined and expanded under the God Learners, and are known by many in the Third Age (although they are used with much more restraint than by the God Learners).

 

[soltakss]

On 10/6/2024 at 8:19 PM, Joerg said:

On 10/6/2024 at 9:24 AM, None said:

Are there any already established solar countries that are more like Esrolia than Dara Happa?

There was pre-Brightface Peloria under the White Queens, mentioned in the Entekosiad. Naveria might retain something like this in the Red City, but has been thoroughly brainwashed by millennia of Brightface Yelm overseers, and Sedenya sort-of co-opted Brightface's idea of Empire. Nysalor's Bright Empire was created under strong Dara Happan influence, too, and spread that pernicious influence all over western and central Genertela.

Yes, Naveria is probably the closest thing to a Solar Esrolia, from the point of view of an Earth Culture heavily influenced by the Solar deities.

 

[None]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:12 AM, soltakss said:

Yes, Naveria is probably the closest thing to a Solar Esrolia, from the point of view of an Earth Culture heavily influenced by the Solar deities.

Didn't find much (anything) about them in the Well of Daliath. How much is known about them?

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, None said:

On 10/11/2024 at 9:12 AM, soltakss said:

Yes, Naveria is probably the closest thing to a Solar Esrolia, from the point of view of an Earth Culture heavily influenced by the Solar deities.

Didn't find much (anything) about them in the Well of Daliath. How much is known about them?

There are mentions in the Glorantha Wiki, for Naveria and Ancient Naveria. It also mentions the Goddess Naveria. Sources may include Entekosiad, Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, and Fortunate Succession.

Edited October 13 by soltakss