The World of Old-School RPG's is Entering Its Twilight

[Saving Throw]

The internet is changing game publishing in a big way. PDFs dont go away the way print publications do.

I have a boatload of old print RPGs.... Powers & Perils, Bunnies & Burrows, Tunnels & Trolls.... it was a very special time. All of them are print and I'm the only one that will 'benefit' from them. If I leave the market I take my games with me and new games dont have to compete against the old.

PDFs are different. They take up virtually no space, labour or upkeep. They can be sold as cheaply as you can transfer any file. Today a new game competes with every previous pdf that has never left the market.

I think the results are a general depression in the sale price of RPGs. In many cases there is always a 'free' option available to players. To turn players from the free option companies have to lower their prices or raise their hype.

In that sense we are seeing the Twilight of the old market. The D20 license sped up this process. It reduced the market value (We are not talking quality in any of this) of every game that wasn't D20. It generated hype for itself mostly by making it easier for people to publish in the one system with clear legal and publishing guidelines. It soaked up a lot of talent. Just look at Monte Cook - who wrote some great Role Master modules - and consider that every one of his fans recently Ptolus etc... has been a supporter of D20. Had he continued to write for a competing company Ptolus might be a Rolemaster or Runequest project. With its marketing clout it tied up paper distribution channels - Chapters\Indigo by me has almost no non WOTC RPG products - and starved other game companies.

I think the market wants to move to a 'lingua franca' for role playing games. The Pen & Paper role playing market has shrunk, especially considering the game market has grown (Think computer games here). A shared language for adventures so that you can enjoy them like novels. Good adventures will still sell but competition is more fierce.

Even its profits from this successful strategy have not made it content. I think fundamentally that WOTC is too demanding for the shrinking market. Some say this was TSRs flaw too. It needs to generate new sales every month to sustain itself but most players won't buy new books every month and the number of players doesn't grow fast enough. I don't think most purchasers (You dear reader are not necessarily included in this) have read their gaming publications very closely at all. The average RPGer would get more out of staying home with his old books than going out to buy more.

So the market leader sees a decline in sales & profitability. The competitors are pinched for market space if they don't publish D20 material. Faced with a uniform market, I think players start to think of RPG gaming as vanilla.

So what is a sustainable business model for RPGs? What is tenacious enough that it will keep producing material for ever and ever? I think the new model demands a very stripped down almost non profit approach. There is almost no money in game publishing because games are a luxury that few people will pay for especially given so many free options. Rather than Wizards of the Coast we have a new Strategic Review. Publishing has never been cheaper. People have never been more connected and shared authorship has never been more easy. The internet sets new rules and find new players.

The new market demands a lingua franca. That was to be D20, I think it should be anything else. It needs to be something that no one company controls.

Anyway, Thats my .02

This is off the cuff so its a little disorganized (I apologize)

[drohem]

PDF's are definitely a great boon to the RPG industry. However, there are plenty of people out there that still will want hardcopy of their favorite RPGs. One of the drawbacks of PDF format is that it is difficult to read a huge PDF. I am one of those persons would still like to have hardbound copies.

WotC is going to be more restrictive with their open license with 4e D&D. I think this will have an impact on the RPG industry. We probably won't see such a great influx of d20 materials once 4e D&D is released. I think that the few successful d20 material companies/publishers may continue, but all the little ma-and-pa operations will diminish. I think the new trend in RPGs is the 'Indie' movement.

[rust]

To turn players from the free option companies have to lower their prices or raise their hype.

I am not so sure about this, because sometimes it could be more useful to

have a good and innovative idea.

Over here a group of fans wrote an RPG named "Ratten !" ("Rats !"), where

the players' characters are, well, rats. They published the game as a free

PDF, used the feedback to expand and improve the game, then published

a print version (on demand), and now are working on a translation into Eng-

lish, and have started to create several other RPGs, including a new gene-

ric system.

What first seemed to be a really stupid idea (I mean, rats ?) has turned into

an - albeit still very small - business success, because the authors had a lot

of truly good and new ideas, a fresh approach to RPGs.

So, no lowered price (from free PDF to print version) and no raised hype (al-

most no hype at all), and still at least a remarkable success.

And "Ratten !" is only one example of several successful projects of this kind.

Sure, the market is changing rapidly, but in my opinion for the better.

[Saving Throw]

I think the new trend in RPGs is the 'Indie' movement.

I absolutely agree. I see the Indie movement will be the drive for a shared system. Without a common game system to work from (Lingua Franca) players will have to learn a new system for every little game - too much work. If the small publishers want to compete with big systems they'll need one of their own - a shared game mechanic.

Saving Throw

[Saving Throw]

I am not so sure about this, because sometimes it could be more useful to have a good and innovative idea.

The point is that new good and innovative games compete with old good and innovative games as never before. Because we are talking about enjoyment not physics a game can only hope to capture the attention of the reader - there is no objective "improvement" or "better game". I mean no disrespect but 'Rats' seems like much the same draw as Bunnies and Burrows did after Watership Down.

I wish you continued faith and success in your product. As a product (not an object of faith) however it competes in a way that early D&D never had to. If you are a small operation you will have lower costs and more profits. Stay small and you can play nice because you have little to lose.

Saving Throw

[rust]

Ah, "Ratten !" is not my project, and it has no similarity with "Bunnies and

Burrows". In fact, the rats of the game are rather mean creatures - more

"World of Darkness" than "Watership Down", I think.

Unfortunately I cannot explain here what makes it special (I do not want to

clutter the thread, and I would run into language problems), but it really is

different from the average run-of-the-mill RPG.

And there I see the problem for companies like WOTC. To make the profits

they need they have to produce for the mainstream market and cannot af-

ford to take risks and make experiments. WOTC will have to ride the D&D-

"horse" until it drops dead.

This opens the doors for small companies, which can try out new ideas in

new ways (PDFs etc.), and some of these new projects will one day have

the potential to win against then outdated and dull games like D&D.

[fmitchell]

I absolutely agree. I see the Indie movement will be the drive for a shared system. Without a common game system to work from (Lingua Franca) players will have to learn a new system for every little game - too much work. If the small publishers want to compete with big systems they'll need one of their own - a shared game mechanic.

On the other hand, I don't agree. I think indie games will drive to simpler systems, something one can learn in 15 minutes. However, one of the points of indie systems is to push the boundaries of gaming, which almost requires creating systems from the ground up. Complexity arises when you have some sort of detailed system of modifiers, or a complex combat system ... but most indie games shy away from those.

A shared language of systems might help. Let's face it, every game has some set attributes/characteristics/skills/abilities/etc with a numerical value. In most conflicts you roll dice to get a number to compare to a difficulty factor or target number (which might also be randomly determined); an applicable a/c/s/a/e, and other factors determine the number of dice, the target number, and/or the total value of the dice roll. Comparing the dice result to the target number determines the success or failure of each party. The fact that there's no consistent terminology for anything I described in this paragraph makes it harder to explain a second RPG to someone who's already learned their first.

[drohem]

As far as a common system goes, the RPG industry has gone back-and-forth. After the hobby was established, there was the movement where the game companies created House Systems so that their fans could easily transition between the product lines. The Indie movement is a reaction to the House System movement. There is always going to be this back-and-forth in the industry. There are always going to be people who like the standardization of House Systems, and there are always going to be people who want to push the boundries and play outside the of the box.

[fmitchell]

After the hobby was established, there was the movement where the game companies created House Systems so that their fans could easily transition between the product lines. The Indie movement is a reaction to the House System movement.

And let's not forget WotC's "One System To Rule Them All" attempt, which backfired in a couple of ways:

1. The glut of d20/OGL material resulted in a bubble and a bust, causing some companies to retrench and others to go under entirely. (Except WotC.) The PDF market allowed many companies to sell their products without printing overhead, but that means less visibility in mainstream outlets (unlike WotC), and the dreaded paradox of choice.
   
   
2. More seriously (to WotC's mind), other companies dared to put out competing derived works like True20 just because the license allowed them to. That's why D&D 4e's license will be more restrictive than OGL.
   

[drohem]

Good points. :thumb:

[Saving Throw]

But I think WOTC's experiment "One System To Rule Them All" will have a lasting impact on the expectations of the market.

There has never been a better time for a universal system. I hope its along the lines of the GPL or the creative commons.

ST

[rust]

When I look at the discussions in the forums over here, the words used most

often when writing about potential new systems are "generic" and "simple".

One system that has made a great impact on the discussion seems to be "Sa-

vage Worlds" (which I do not really know), and many would-be game desig-

ners mention it as a good example for an approach to new systems.

[drohem]

There is a free Test Drive version of Savage Worlds. You can download it from here:

http://www.peginc.com/Games/SavageWorlds/Downloads/TestDrive.pdf

[Atgxtg]

But I think WOTC's experiment "One System To Rule Them All" will have a lasting impact on the expectations of the market.

ST

I don't think it is really WotC "experiment" but really just the end result of what TSR had for years. Where TSR messed up was that they protected thier property (D&D) to the point where it was starting to cost them thier market dominance. A lot of compnaies thet were producing D&D related stuff ended up designing thier on systems, most of which were superior, since they had the benefit of seeing D&D mistakes,

Ny opening up the system to 3rd patiry companies, WotC kept the D&D game system in the #1 spot.

[Atgxtg]

When I look at the discussions in the forums over here, the words used most

often when writing about potential new systems are "generic" and "simple".

One system that has made a great impact on the discussion seems to be "Sa-

vage Worlds" (which I do not really know), and many would-be game desig-

ners mention it as a good example for an approach to new systems.

Yeah, I wonder about that, too. There have been many "simple" RPGs in the past, and most of them were too simple to support a campaign. There is always a trade off, and the trade off for options and flexibility is usually some complexity.

[Saving Throw]

Savage worlds is an interesting system. Truthfully, I don't really like it but I find the structure interesting.

Over generalizing and stressing what _I_ find interesting:

Better abilities use higher die up to d12. An Ogre might swing a d12 - a wizard or child d4.

Combat is a challenge situation. (My Fighting Roll against your defense rolls)

Fighting skill roll vs Parry - Do I hit you.

Damage total vs. Toughness (Con & Armor) - Do I penetrate your armor.

Levels are broken up into categories Novice, ...., ...., to Legendary and subdivided at 5exp increments. Guidelines say each session is between 1 and 3 exp. So every other session you go up a small level and get a type of improvement allowed to your category. DM sets the exp return level.

For most rolls heroes roll a second 'wild die' (Almost always a D6) this generates your skill roll and your wild die roll. You take the higher number.

Dice 'explode' ie... if you get the highest number on the die you roll it again until you don't roll the highest, and then add them.

So A physically weak player mage swinging a str appropriate weapon (eg a knife) makes an attack. He likely has a physical fighting attack ability of D4 so he rolls a D4 and a d6. His opponent has a Parry of 7.

If he rolls at the top of either die he rolls them again and takes the total. D4's need only 1in4 to roll again.

So he rolls: 4,4,4,2 and 5. He keeps the D4 roll (and thanks his stars) 14 hits a parry of 7. Its actually more than 4 above the 7 so he gets an extra d6 damage.

His Dagger does (Str+D4) damage. so he rolls 2d4 for the weapon and 1d6 for his excellent attack roll.

2d4 = 3,2 - the dagger

1d6 = 4 - the bonus damage

3+2+4= 9 total attack damage

His opponent has a Constitution of 6 and leather armor.

Con/2 +1 for armor = 4

This is subtracted from the damage attack leaving 5 penetrating damage.

The opponent is allowed a toughness roll to overcome the damage. He must roll over the total damage with his con die.

d6 = 5 - no luck

Opponent takes 5 damage. 1damage is stunned 2 damage is wounded 3 damage is mortally wounded.

5 damage - he's dead.

Sigurd - guess that's long but I think its right.

[rust]

Yes, this is a very interesting system. The main criticism I have heard about

it is that Savage Worlds is something like a "dice producers' conspiracy to

sell more dice", because you seem to need a small bucket full of dice to play

the game.

The trend in the discussions I did read goes towards one sort of dice only,

usually D6 or D%.

[drohem]

Ny opening up the system to 3rd patiry companies, WotC kept the D&D game system in the #1 spot.

Yes, I absolutely agree. This was the brightest business decision in the RPG industry in years, and it's impact will last years to come. WotC was brillant in creating the open license concept. It was truely an innovative business decision, which has revitalized Dungeons & Dragons and insured its position as the number RPG again.

[Saving Throw]

My criticisms of Savage Worlds are not all fair.

1) I don't like point buy systems - some people do. New chars can be identical and you don't have enough variation for my tastes.

* I should note this approach works very well for "types" lots of soldiers, squads etc... I can understand its appeal for that.

2) I don't feel that you build a very unique character. Your choices are pretty clear but they seem generic to me.

- saving throw

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

The HERO system is expecting a big shot in the arm with the new superhero MMORPG in the works.

[GreatBear]

Valid comments all. I would have to say that 90% the "revival" project are nostalgia driven and probably won't bring any number of new young RPGers to the table. You don't get a second chance to impress a gamer and most of these games require a big investment in time and gray matter before there is a pay-off in satisfaction. Re-presenting 80s games in all their tedious, table-driven, die roll modifying pre-home computer/video game/MMORPG glory just doesn't cut it. It's preaching to the choir.

Some few old games are still playable and I class BRP as the most straight forward and accessible of all. Does it have a chance of becoming the next d20? sadly no - Chaosium just doesn't have the resources to promote it.:deadhorse:

[Saving Throw]

Re-presenting 80s games in all their tedious, table-driven, die roll modifying pre-home computer/video game/MMORPG glory just doesn't cut it. It's preaching to the choir.

Some few old games are still playable and I class BRP as the most straight forward and accessible of all. Does it have a chance of becoming the next d20? sadly no - Chaosium just doesn't have the resources to promote it.:deadhorse:

I don't want to agree with you but I do.

ST

[Shaira]

To be honest, I do think that all this "we gotta get the young 'uns on board" approach is a piece of bogus youth-cult marketing.

If I was selling cars, or hi-fis, or designer clothes, I'd be quite happy with my target demographic being "grown-ups" with a significant disposable income. RPGs have a gradually aging demographic, which to me just means keener gamers with more money :happy:.

I'm quite sanguine about leaving the task of trying to recruit "young gamers" by dragging them away from their mobile phones and playstations to companies with a marketing budget to do so. BRP will be (re)entering a pre-existing client base (which includes all of us), and its job will be to garner new gamers from amongst them. It already has a solid rules base which is intuitive and easily expandable - it now needs some "killer app" settings and scenarios to follow up and induce *existing* gamers to give it a go.

Also, RQ/BRP/etc has always had an older demographic than D&D et al. This is probably due to it always being more interested in game background than D&D, which has more or less stuck to its vanilla "go down a dungeon, kill a bunch of critters and take their stuff" approach. If I was going to present a "BRP Lite", I'd bundle it with exactly that type of easy-entry dungeon-crawl scenario, and make some more thoughtful stuff available online.

RPGs entering their twilight? Not IMHO. Certainly the way *I* play RPGs has changed since I was 12, and rightly so :eek:. But that doesn't mean it's the end of the world as we know it. IMHO RPGs are still a young hobby - and of course computers are changing the "round the table" nature of the games. Computers aren't yet sophisticated enough to enable the smooth flow of round-the-table gameplay, but they will be - which will be an added option (and eventually probably the default option) for play. Apps like Neverwinter Nights (with the GM option switched on) and KloogeWerks point to an RPGing Brave New World, and I - with my Insane Messianic Hat on - look forwards one day to strolling virtually through Beast Valley in my chainmail bikini and my broadsword over my shoulder, with my best allied spirit by my side...

The one certain thing about life is change. :thumb:

Cheers,

Sarah

[AikiGhost]

Am I being negative? Am I overreacting?

Please give me your thoughts.

Yes you are over reacting. As long as there are people willing to play BRP will never die, I fully intend to be playing BRP in 20 years time.

[RosenMcStern]

Well, time for a lurker like me to add my two bolgs to this discussion.

It is sadly true that Chaosium does not have the marketing resources to make BRP the #1 in RPGs as it deserves. I could add that SJG had even less resources when it launched GURPS many years ago, and it was a mistake on Chaosium's part not to merchandise BRP as the best "generic" RPG, like Jackson did, but GURPS did by no means become the "standard" RPG in the years like SJG hoped, so this is not a point.

The point here is that this time, with the new edition, Chaousium could exploit the OGL mechanism to reach a larger audience without the need to commit big financial resources to marketing. But will they do so?

As for the "killer application", we already have one: Call of Cthulhu!