The World of Old-School RPG's is Entering Its Twilight

[dracopticon]

Well, I've gotten a sad string of thoughts in my brain: is the main problem that paper prints are beginning to get so out of favour with the younger (and much younger) generations, that pen&paper RPGs seem like something out of the dark ages these days? Is everything that isn't an end product online getting jawns as a response? Maybe it's the schools of our western civ that's to blame for this?

Or is it just me and my inherent pessimism?

Erik Brickman.

[rust]

Over here we have several RPGs that started as fan-produced free PDFs on

one of the forums, gathered a small fan community around themselves, and

then appeared as semi-commercial products in print, too.

It seems that PDFs are often just a good way to "test the waters" and find

out whether it would be worth the trouble (and especially the money ...) to

publish an RPG in print. Besides, the feedback received for the PDF is a way

to get "free playtesting" for a potential future product.

[raymond_turney]

As a guy who remembers that he was not too happy in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it is hard for me to get into the frame of mind to appreciate this thread.

Yes, the old way of doing things is dying, but a more dispersed system based mostly on PDF's is not exactly a disaster. PDF's are cheaper. If a game becomes popular enough, low cost print on demand makes small print runs attractive as a sideline business, so someone will print copies on demand. From a strictly consumer viewpoint, it is hard to bemoan the replacement of TSR and Gary Gygax by a combination of WoW and a lot of internet based independent gaming outfits.

While we are nostalgic for the old days when we were first discovering RuneQuest, the reality is that there was a lot of ill considered divination to the Great God Gygax in the old days. RQ I was impressive for its day, but it is now apparent that it was not that good.

WoW is a pretty good substitute for hack and slash D&D or Runequest. The graphics are good, and if the social interaction is not impressive, that's not a big change from the old days. MMORG's may yet evolve to offer a richer experience.

Let's not kid ourselves. As the Buddha taught, everything is impermanent. It is easy to remember the old days as better than they were. We were in good physical shape, experiencing less back and foot pain than we do now. If we went to an all night game at a convention, we would recover by Monday. We were making exciting new mistakes {at least they were new to us} instead of boring old mistakes. But we've learned something, the games are better, and things are slowly getting better.

Soon enough, we will be dead, and some guy will be bemoaning how things were better in the good old days of World of Warcraft. Let's get on with life.

[Puck]

In my little corner of the world role-playing seems stronger than ever. For years I never heard my student talk about games. Suddenly after the LotR movies I started seeing role-playing book come out during their reading time. There are two game stores in the area and they each have games going, one almost every night of the week. The problem is that most of it is D+D or white wolf. It has proven harder than I thought it would be to switch them over to d100 type games. I ran a few Runequest adventures and they thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. A few months later they were back to D+D.

[CruelDespot]

In my little corner of the world role-playing seems stronger than ever

What corner of the world is that?

[Atgxtg]

.....

Soon enough, we will be dead, and some guy will be bemoaning how things were better in the good old days of World of Warcraft. Let's get on with life.

As usual, lots of wisdom in Ray's post. I'm only going to comment on the end, but I agree with most of what Ray typed. About the only disagreement I have is that PDF's are cheap. They are cheap to buy, but end up costing more once you factor in the cost to print. But otherwise I agree with you.

I recall something I saw on TV awhile back, where they showed letters written by people from the 1950s. Most of it was the older people complaining about how the youth had no respect, how morals were disappearing, how violence had escalated, how costs had gone up and so forth. Letters from younger people had comments about how they old folks were stuck in their ways, and wouldn't accept change or progress.

Then they showed letters from 1900., 1850s and so forth,, and they were all remarkably similar. They even pulled out stuff from ancient Rome that read about the same.

So a lot of this is "thing were better in my younger days".

I remember back in the 80s how a good 75% of the stuff on the shelves was by TSR, and of no use to me since I played the other RPGs. I see more support for other games now, either on the shelves or on the net, then there was back in the "good old days". I remember being one of the lucky two who managed to pick up a copy of Timelords and Ars Magica-back in the days when if you didn't see it on the shelf, you would never know it existed.

Now, we can search catalogs and check the internet, even go to company websites and get errata, freebies, and fan produced stuff.

Just look at this site. We've got over 20 files available for download to support an RPG than hasn't even come out yet. We couldn't do that 20 years ago. It wasn't around when I was surfing the net on Compuserve paying by the hour for internet access.

So we really haven't had it so good. Especially in the light of how many "dead" RPGs seem to be making a comeback in one form or another, and the ability to find old games online.

[Puck]

What corner of the world is that?

The western middle coast of Michigan. There seems to be little covens of gaming groups hidden all over. Some of my students have learned about gaming from their fathers. Perhaps one of the big reasons it has taken off here is that there are several gaming stores that offer role-playing right in the store during weeknights (weekends are for magic and warhammer which makes the stores much more money). As I stated earlier these games are usually d+d though. There are a lot of small communities around here and nothing much to do for the kids so these stores offer a lot. The problem is the stores are always really struggling to survive. They cannot make much money on role-playing as they always have to compete with Amazon and other internet companies that have bigger markets and no overhead. They generally cannot carry many other games other than d+d because they tend to sit on the shelves or gather in the sale bins.

On another note I wish someone would set up a role-player retirement home somewhere. It would be nice to know that we could spend our twilight years sitting around and role-playing rather than playing bridge or shuffleboard. That kind of thing would cause me to buy some years and retire early. :thumb:

[Ars Mysteriorum]

As a guy who remembers that he was not too happy in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it is hard for me to get into the frame of mind to appreciate this thread.

Yes, the old way of doing things is dying, but a more dispersed system based mostly on PDF's is not exactly a disaster. PDF's are cheaper. If a game becomes popular enough, low cost print on demand makes small print runs attractive as a sideline business, so someone will print copies on demand. From a strictly consumer viewpoint, it is hard to bemoan the replacement of TSR and Gary Gygax by a combination of WoW and a lot of internet based independent gaming outfits.

While we are nostalgic for the old days when we were first discovering RuneQuest, the reality is that there was a lot of ill considered divination to the Great God Gygax in the old days. RQ I was impressive for its day, but it is now apparent that it was not that good.

WoW is a pretty good substitute for hack and slash D&D or Runequest. The graphics are good, and if the social interaction is not impressive, that's not a big change from the old days. MMORG's may yet evolve to offer a richer experience.

Let's not kid ourselves. As the Buddha taught, everything is impermanent. It is easy to remember the old days as better than they were. We were in good physical shape, experiencing less back and foot pain than we do now. If we went to an all night game at a convention, we would recover by Monday. We were making exciting new mistakes {at least they were new to us} instead of boring old mistakes. But we've learned something, the games are better, and things are slowly getting better.

Soon enough, we will be dead, and some guy will be bemoaning how things were better in the good old days of World of Warcraft. Let's get on with life.

Allow me to elucidate with my perspective.

I never saw the 70's, I was born in 1982. I started playing RPG's in the 90's in the age of White Wolf's birth and AD&D 2E. I only was exposed to the newest of games (The new White Wolf games, D&D 3E, Exalted, etc) until a few years ago. In 2006 I started buying older games. I was tired of D&D 3E limited expression. I disliked the new White Wolf, not for its nice core (which is simple, very playable, and rather clever... save for the morality system), but for its supplement games (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc.), which required every player to own and know the books in order to reduce the amount of time spent passing around a book for reference. Mage especially, the spell system and list, while very evocative of the setting, is terribly cumbersome.

Exalted. I refuse to even begin to talk about Exalted, lest I be placed on blood pressure medicine by the age of 26.

My friends that I grew up gaming with love MMORPG's and are in their mid-twenties. They think they're cool. I don't. I saw one and was perplexed as to how it was a game (which are fun). Most of the people I noticed speaking via the in-game voice-chat were unkind and criticized each other harshly. It sounded more like a childish pissing contest (forgive my language, but it simply did) than a game. I grew tired of attempting to play traditional RPG's with these friends due to their sheerly tactical perspective of gaming (which included reference to their characters as "toons"). This was no longer roleplaying at all, but rather a waste of time. I have no idea why I worried about planning a story any longer, simply giving them masses of inexplicably present monsters followed by powerful weapons, armor, and gold seemed all they cared about. It was sad for me, because I had had my best and most imaginative games with these same friends in my youth.

I think today's gamers no longer care about stories. My experiences have only shown me that the gaming trend is best served by thinking in terms of raw, blunt, clumsy power. Get more powerful to fight bigger monsters to get more powerful to fight bigger monsters to get more powerful, etc. Ugh. It's a capitalist game with capitalism as its main gameplay feature. I find that disgusting.

I want more than that. I want a story that's immersive and helps me care more about what's going on in my character's environment. Games from yesteryear have given me that with their simpler systems and deep settings. You can see the passion the writers felt, and luckily, their writing ability was of a caliber capable of expressing the idea eloquently (for the most part).

World of Warcraft, according to what I would perceive as the average demographic, is the game I am supposed to look back upon and reminisce about. It's simply not. I find it to be a trite game with no depth and no personality. This upsets me because I love this hobby and am now feeling a bit abandoned by it. In my opinion, the hobby is now pandering to a new kind of player that wants more control over their power gaining than their MMORPG of choice allows, which has led to new games that concentrate more on powers, feats, magic, psionics, Basic Hitstuffery, Focused Killdeathery, and Improved Advanced Grandmaster Swordyclangsmashery.

Strangely, I find this does not impair my ability to get on with life.

[rust]

World of Warcraft ... I find it to be a trite game with no depth and no personality.

Good to know that I am not alone. I find WoW about as fascinating and en-

tertaining as watching paint drying or reading phone books.

It was very interesting to read your posting, because over here I usually hear

the opposite complaint: Modern RPGs have too much setting and not enough

"action", young players love "narrativism" instead of going out and killing mon-

sters, the good old days of "powergaming" are gone, and so on.

Perhaps you had just a streak of extremely bad luck with the players you met ?

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Good to know that I am not alone. I find WoW about as fascinating and en-

tertaining as watching paint drying or reading phone books.

It was very interesting to read your posting, because over here I usually hear

the opposite complaint: Modern RPGs have too much setting and not enough

"action", young players love "narrativism" instead of going out and killing mon-

sters, the good old days of "powergaming" are gone, and so on.

Perhaps you had just a streak of extremely bad luck with the players you met ?

I'm moving to Germany now.

And yes. Very, very bad luck. South Dakota is not known for its hardcore RPG gamers. It's known for it's hardcore weird-stuff-happening in the middle of nowhere.

[Atgxtg]

I'm with rust,

There are a lot more story-based RPGs not than there were before. Not would I have put Warhammer in the "story driven" section of RPGs.

About 8-0-90% of gamers roll dice and beat stuff up. It's been that way since the beginning.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Not would I have put Warhammer in the "story driven" section of RPGs.

*Gasp of shock, horror, disbelief and other extreme and dramatic descriptors!*

[Atgxtg]

*Gasp of shock, horror, disbelief and other extreme and dramatic descriptors!*

If you really want to go into sick. read the part in italics, if sot skip over it.

The overall reaction to Warhammer when it came out 20 something years ago was that it was just an attempt to push lead, and spelled the end of Games Workshop as a RPG company. White Dwarf went from being a great independent RPG magazine to GW's "house organ" in the worst senses of the word.

This was before you time, but Warhammer came out just when GW started doubling the price of lead and coming out with punk elves and dwarves. Every three months they would raise their prices for miniatures in the US and blame the exchange rate. When the rate of exchange went up, GW raised their prices; When the rate of exchange went down, GW raised their prices; when GW switched to plastic bases to cut costs, GM raised prices.

When tons of lead fanatics bought into Warhammer, and didn't mind character getting killed off left and right, since it let them use more minis, many wondered if it spelled "the end of old school gaming".

So it really does come around.

GW used to be a good RPG company prior to the punk minis and Warhammer. You could find all sorts of RPGs supported in White Dwarf.

But that said, I can appreciate how it feels to loose a RPG that you are fond of. But among many of us "old-schoolers" (and we'd use a different term, Old skool is too "new") Warhammer is not considered an old school RPG. So a lot of this is cyclic.

[rust]

In fact, I have never seen Warhammer as a "real" roleplaying game, from my

point of view it was always more a tabletop game with some roleplaying ele-

ments. Over the years the roleplaying elements became more and more, but

at the core it remained a tabletop wargame - at least that is how I saw it.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Rust, we're talking about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The system is reminiscent of BRP, and while it is most certainly relatively new, I would argue that the fashion of play is more in line with "old-school" style gaming than any other game that has come out recently. I don't count Mongoose games because... well... I just don't like them

[rust]

I know, I agree, I apologize ... but in my mind Warhammer always remained

associated with tabletop wargaming, and the fact that Dark Heresy once

again was military oriented did not help much ... sorry, but that is how my

old brain works (at least it used to, before that Alzheimer crawled in ...)

[TrippyHippy]

I'd also point out that Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually came out in the early 1980s (1983), and was sitting very comfortably alongside GWs stable of rpgs and boardgames for several years, without overhadowing them particularly. There was a good mix of all sorts of different game types supported by GW during this time.

The wargame that actually made an impact, and changed their entire business approach, was Warhammer 40K, which came out in 1987 and pretty much dominated White Dwarf magazine (and the GW stores) from that point onwards.

[camazotz]

Hi Ars M. I had to comment....

When I was 25 and a gamer (also graduating from college) it was 1995 and I definitely didn't feel the way you do now. My wife, who is your age, doesn't feel the way you do (she's a hardcore gamer) but she's also a woman who is happy with the same 5 games she's had in her possession and feels no need for more and shinier to replace them. But I think you probably managed to get in on the hobby and see a bit of what it was like before things started changing, which is why you and I feel similarly now.

I think a lot of today's problems arise from media competition. We have a glut of numerous forms of entertainment today that are very flashy and often do all the mental work for the participants. Video games are (imo) the single biggest threat to the table top hobby today, and part of the reason it's not growing and expanding. I think you make a very succinct point that rpgs today are not always a labor of love so much as part of a marketing process, one which will abandon them if they don't seem to be making enough cash. True, I agree....but....

Back in the 80's, (I started gaming as a kid in 1981) every company was tantamount to a small start up, and the level of fun one could imaginatively have with RPGs was far in excess of the kind of interest that games like Zork, Wizardry or Ultima could produce. There simply was no competition for RPGs in terms of entertainment...if anything, books and comics where the biggest direct competitor for time, along with movies. And movies always have been and likely shall remain a separate market for a long time...although it's interesting to note that films today are being challenged by video games, as well, for dollars and time.

Today, as I see it, the growth in the industry is mainly in independent and smaller press publishers; look at all the cool RPGs out of IPR, for example. Some smaller game companies that are entirely focused on the RPG experience are still doing okay, or at least staying focused (Hero, Chaosium, SJGames + or - Munchkin, I suppose; and Mongoose) but I tend to think of WotC with D&D as now being more "mainstream," as it must need to be to survive the expectations of it's parent company. This makes for some really strange times, since it means the market for RPGs has changed so much in the last decade.

I also think that the median age of gamers is older, now. To enjoy an RPG these days, I think you have to have a keen interest in a broader story or more calculated game experience. You need to want to interact directly with real people. You have to be willing to use your imagination. And you need to be willing to be a bit geekier than the nutty Warcraft players, who will call you a geek for playing D&D and other tabletop games while they spend their time in an all-day raid on WoW....without a trace of hypocricy.

I also think that the internet is turning, bit by bit, in to a new sort of lifeblood for tabletop gaming. It's now much easier to produce and get some recognition for your game or product via the web than it ever was before...and easier to make it look good in the process.

My personal method for dealing with this has been to try and focus my purchasing support exclusively on those companies which still fit the "niche" I feel I am in. So I buy interesting games from IPR and continue to support Hero Games, SJGames, Chaosium and Mongoose (when I am confident the book won't blow up in confetti after I open it, that is )

I also try to just relax and find like-minded gamers, who tend to simply enjoy playing whatever games they've always enjoyed....I'm really amazed at the number of people out there who are slowly no longer being fazed by the trendiness of new editions to games.

All that said, I do kind of like the idea of making BRP "The Last Game I'll Ever Need." But I love being a consumer, so I guess I'll keep buying other stuff I like, too....and holding on to the old stuff that's fun. Just because BL stopped publishing/supporting WHFR, for example, doesn't mean it's not still a good game and viable....you just need to be a bigger supporter for it to rally in players and show them how cool it is. If enough people showed loyalty to their faovorite systems over time, they'll get ressurrected eventually, guaranteed. I think BRP is a great example of how loyalty to a system works.

EDIT: Not sure I had a point. Just liked your thread and wanted to comment thru a bit of free-association...

[sinisalo]

In fact, I have never seen Warhammer as a "real" roleplaying game, from my

point of view it was always more a tabletop game with some roleplaying ele-

ments. Over the years the roleplaying elements became more and more, but

at the core it remained a tabletop wargame - at least that is how I saw it.

I believe, in my humble opinion, that Power Behind the Throne for WFRP is the greatest scenario ever written:thumb:

[Simlasa]

There's always been competition for the RPG audience...

The guys who initially got me into RPGs were all brothers in a family that didn't have a TV... they're parents wouldn't allow one in the house, so all the kids (there were 6 of em) were raised without it.

They were a fascinating bunch of guys... well read, creative, hilariously funny...

Then one day their parents broke down and bought a television.

I'm pretty sure they never played another RPG...

They certainly became a lot less interesting... since all the stuff they talked about was the same drivel 90% of the other kids were talking about.

As for games going out of print/companies going under... there is some comfort to be taken in knowing that once that happens the rules will NOT being seeing version X.umpity... will not be twisted into some unrecognizeable mess to capitalize on some current cultural trend... they won't become a CMG or have a set of online tools to supplement them... they'll just stay the same great rules you always loved... and play pretty much the same as long as you want them to.

[Aycorn]

As for games going out of print/companies going under... there is some comfort to be taken in knowing that once that happens the rules will NOT being seeing version X.umpity... will not be twisted into some unrecognizeable mess to capitalize on some current cultural trend... they won't become a CMG or have a set of online tools to supplement them... they'll just stay the same great rules you always loved... and play pretty much the same as long as you want them to.

Yes. I'm afraid I've always felt a bit lost when it comes to this subject. Sure I wish the creators of the game well, but as long as I have the rules, I'll be able to play the game, and teach it to others, whether the game is still in print, being marketed, or even successful.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Hi Ars M. I had to comment....

[big, big, big, bigbigbigbigbigbigbig, BIG comment]

It's always interesting to hear another person's take on the world of gaming. I agree that the internet presents a massive potential for expanding into a network of like-minded gamers. I'm just a big, stubborn child and like rolling my expensive, collector's edition Call of Cthulhu dice and the interesting person-to-person contact that playing at a physical table offers.

I think BRP will be a culmination of my existence as a gamer. May we all glory in its awesome old-schoolishness.

Recently I've decided to stop being a d20 basher and see how D&D 4th Edition pans out. They punted gnomes out of the PHB (when I was in high school my friend and I actually thought of creating a class of warriors called "Gnome Punters," with a partner gnome-only class called "Gnome Projectile"), which I agree with. I hated gnomes. A lot.

Still... the prospect of ponying up for all new supplements is a bit daunting...

We'll just have to see.

[area51]

you know that this same conversation was had about chess in the 1950's because of television and penball- who will continue chess.

who well continue poker>?

who well continue rpgs>? give it time a media well appear a method or a sponcership and commercial means that well once again make rpg 'ing a mega dallor industry and it well be "all remember when gameing was somthing only geeks did- it is the turn of the wheel people live and learn it well turn!

[seneschal]

Hero System is a good example of a favorite game resurrected by fan support. The company ran into problems, partnered with Iron Crown to do its publishing, toyed with electronic book versions on floppy disk (this was before ubiquitous Internet access and PDFs), and pretty much went into limbo when ICE itself went bankrupt.

But Hero Games had a web site with an active chat room community that kept hope (and the game) alive for several years. Then a new fan owner with lots of ideas and cash purchased the company and began pumping out new product on a regular basis. Fifth Edition products are back on the shelves.

Traveller has had a harder row to hoe. A fifth edition has been promised for years now, and the official web site was pretty lame last time I visited. But there are scads of fan websites with sample sectors, ships, and NPCs. And the game has migrated to other rules systems such as GURPS and d20, even Risus. I'd still like to get my paws on the reprints of Classic Traveller, although the PDF of Megatraveller is available online.

Wish Action! System had that sort of online support. Gold Rush Games has been in limbo for some time now, and an active fan chat room is invaluable for keeping interest alive.

[drohem]

Ok, I've been off the computer for a week or so and I'm back.

I don't think that old-school RPGs is entering its twilight. There is a revival movement by Goblinoid Games in GORE, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lords, and Mutant Future. The call them Retro-Clone games.

I think that the internet and new PDF format will continue to keep the older games alive long enough for new gamers to discover and start the cycle over again.

I played WoW for a while, but grew tired of politics and economics in a freaking game that was suppose to be my recreational time. I am sure that there are many people and gamers out there that will get disillusioned with that type and style of play in their MMORPG and their table-top RPGs.

4e Dungeons & Dragons seems to have morphed to appeal to the younger MMORPG crowds. I am sure that there will still be plenty of gamers who stick with 3.X Dungeons & Dragons because they don't like that trend in their RPGs.