The Combat Round

[Trifletraxor]

This is a houserule for the combat round that I have been using with my Cthulhu Rising campaign. It's sort of a hybrid btw the CoC round and the RQ3 round, attempting to speed up combat without removing the RQ flavour. Comment and criticism is wanted! :cool:

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A Combat Turn (CT) is about 1 minute long, and consists of 5 Combat Rounds (CR).

The Combat Round is the default unit of time used to measure the passage of time in combat situations.

A Combat Round divided into 2 Strike Ranks (SR). A third and last strike rank come into play under certain conditions (see below).

Most humanoid characters can perform 2 Actions per combat round.

During a single strike rank, any one of the following action can be done (assuming a character have actions left to use):

• A missile weapon attack
  
• A melee weapon attack
  
• Activating a power
  
• A non-combat action

The order of Actions in a Strike Rank is as follows:

1. Missile weapons go first, in DEX order of the user (starting with the character with the highest DEX stat).
   
2. Melee weapons come next. Melee weapons are divided into long, medium and short range weapons. Long range weapons go first - in DEX order, medium range weapons go next - also in DEX order, while short range weapons go last - in DEX or SIZ order, whichever characteristic is the greatest.
   
3. Activation of Powers comes after the physical attacks, and occur in INT, DEX or POW order, depending on what power or magic system is used.
   
4. The last actions to occur during a strike rank are the non-combat actions (occuring in DEX order).

Dodge and Parry are actions that can be attempted at any time during the combat round, as long as a character have actions left to use.

A third strike rank comes into play under some conditions. It is a short strike rank, and only certain actions can be performed:

• If a character is using a missile weapon with a ROF of 3, and have used both his Actions to fire both in the first and the second strike rank of the round, a third shot can be fired on strike rank 3 for free.
  
• If a character have more than 100% in his skill with a melee weapon, he can chose to split his attack - using one Action to attack twice at half skill with his weapon. The attacks will then occur in strike rank 1 and strike rank 3. Attacks in strike rank 2 cannot be split.
  
• If a character takes extra time to aim carefully, either to gain some bonus to the attack or to aim at a certain location, the attack is delayed to strike rank 3. A character taking time to aim carefully can only use defensive actions (parry or dodge) earlier in the round.

Example:

Roman Batou, a half-mad zealot wearing light battle armor and wielding a vibrosword, has just been be confronted by two guards. Guard one has a laser pistol, while guard two is wielding a stun lance. Instead of following their orders to drop his weapon, Roman attacks.

Combat Round 1, Strike Rank 1: Guard one with the laser pistol (ROF 3 missile weapon), attacks first and hits, but fails to penetrate Romans armor. Guard two then attack with the stun lance (long range melee weapon), which Roman parries with his sword. Roman then attacks with his sword (medium range melee weapon). As his skill is above 100%, Roman deciedes to split the attack, attacking twice at half skill. He attacks guard one, who manages to dodge the attack. Strike Rank 2: Guard one used both his combat actions in strike rank 1, and have no actions left this round. Roman used both his Actions during strike rank 1, but have a split attack left at strike rank 3. Guard two have one action left, and attacks Roman with his stun lance again, but fails to hit. Strike Rank 3: Roman uses his second part of his split attack to strike at guard two. Guard two, having no actions left for dodge or parry takes the full force of the hit and goes down.

Combat Round 2, Strike Rank 1: Guard one goes first again, and hits with his laser pistol, penetrating Romans armor with 3 points, a minor wound. Roman attacks with his sword. The guard makes a successful dodge, but the sword attack is a critical success and kills the guard. At the far end of the room, Roman see a forth guard entering. Strike Rank 2: Both Roman (INT 15) and the new guard (INT 13) wants to attack using a psychic power (activating a power). Roman, having the highest INT attacks first, with a Mind Blast. The guard is not able to resist, and gets stunned for 3 combat rounds.

Combat Round 3, Strike Rank 1: Roman moves in for the kill... (non-combat action). Strike Rank 2: Chop-chop!

[Ebonstorm]

Clean and makes good sense to me. I will be plucking this for my GM screen....

[Puck]

Looks good to me. I always have to actually try these things a few times for real before I am really sure how they play out, but it looks simple and playable and yet allows for longer weapons splitting attacks and such.

Is movement considered a non-combat action? If so, it seems strange that movement falls after the combat actions. Maybe just because so many games have movement phases before combat.

[Trifletraxor]

Is movement considered a non-combat action? If so, it seems strange that movement falls after the combat actions.

Yes, it's considered a non-combat action. I felt it made more sense that combat attacks resolved faster than a move from a to b. I felt it would fit well game-mechanic wise also. Moving during combat didn't come up that much during playtesting though. Is there any problems you can see with this? What do you feel is strange with it?

SGL.

[sabre_mmc]

Although the combat rules seem quite straitforward. Each character having the traditional attack; parry/dodge type actions with a possible third action.

I feel calling these actions strike ranks a little confusing, as I recall RundQuest the most detailed combat system of the BRP line used this basic format. However each character had his own personal SR (Strike Rank) based on his Dex & Siz with a modifier for the weapon.

With each combat round counting through the SRs (12 - 1) until each combatant had completed his/her actions.

Has this model been abandoned in favour of the one explained in your post.

[Trifletraxor]

I feel calling these actions strike ranks a little confusing, as I recall RundQuest the most detailed combat system of the BRP line used this basic format. However each character had his own personal SR (Strike Rank) based on his Dex & Siz with a modifier for the weapon.

With each combat round counting through the SRs (12 - 1) until each combatant had completed his/her actions.

Has this model been abandoned in favour of the one explained in your post.

This is just a houserule I use, to allow for the RuneQuest type of melee combat options, without the slowing down of the traditional strike rank system. I use the strike rank terminology because the rules are heavily inspired by RuneQuest. The strike ranks are not Actions though, they are just a way to subdivide the combat round. A character cannot attack more than once during a single strike rank.

I liked the speed of the Cthulhu round, but didn't felt it handled melee combat as well. With these houserules you can do all what you could do in RQ3.

The order of attacks are first modified by the weapon, and then the DEX of the user (or SIZ with very short weapons or no weapons).

The houserule is an alternative to the RuneQuest and Cthulhu round, trying to take the best from both. It's only been playtested once (last weekend) but ran very smoothly (quicker than the RQ round, but with more options than the CoC round). Still, more playtesting needs to be done to see if not some hdden problems comes up.

SGL.

[Dredj]

Sorry to get a little off subject, but I always wondered about the use of combat rounds. I always thought that people in a real life and death battle would strike more and faster in the time period of a single round. I've had this explained to me that it's because the opponents are circling each other and looking for an opening. Or it's to only make note of the hits that actually do real damage. ANd I do understand the bookkeeping aspect of it. But every fight I've ever witnessed in real life, the opponents rush right in and throw a successive flurry of hits and hit each other very often. But all the actual fights I've ever seen were fist fights with the purpose of wearing down the opponent to submission--or beyond. I admit, I've never seen true melee combat outside of a martial arts tournament.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone's combat round procedures, but just raising a question that's been bothering me for years. Trif, your combat round homerules look very workable.

Are there any rules in the new BRP book about non-round combat rounds?

:focus:

[Triff]

Sorry to get a little off subject, but I always wondered about the use of combat rounds. I always thought that people in a real life and death battle would strike more and faster in the time period of a single round. I've had this explained to me that it's because the opponents are circling each other and looking for an opening. Or it's to only make note of the hits that actually do real damage. ANd I do understand the bookkeeping aspect of it. But every fight I've ever witnessed in real life, the opponents rush right in and throw a successive flurry of hits and hit each other very often. But all the actual fights I've ever seen were fist fights with the purpose of wearing down the opponent to submission--or beyond.

Well, you've heard the common explanations - for brawls the fact that many of the "hits" do not give any damage comes into play. Fistfights is an odd ball in the combat system though - with most fights leading to death and not unconsciousness.

I admit, I've never seen true melee combat outside of a martial arts tournament.

The rules work better with weapons. I participated in two stickfighting matches in switzerland a couple of years ago, where we used very little protection, and the potential for fractures where a real danger. In those fights more time where used for circling, looking for openings and feinting than real commited attacks. RPG combat will never be realistic though, we have to settle with the balance of "realistic feel" and playability we're comfortable with. Which is why combat is the most houseruled chapter of most RPG books. Everyonoe have their own opinion of where the balance of realism and playability should be.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone's combat round procedures, but just raising a question that's been bothering me for years.

Have you made any houserules for it? (one very easy way would be to say that the combat round is shorter than what's stated default - like 3-4 seconds instead of 12s, but I'm not sure if that's a big improvement either.

Trif, your combat round homerules look very workable.

Thanks!

Are there any rules in the new BRP book about non-round combat rounds?

Nope! BUT, if you have any, please do share!

SGL.

[Dredj]

Thank you Triff for the explanations. I'm glad to hear from somebody who actually knows how to use a melee weapon and has fought with it using little protection. All the tournaments I've gone to were for people to show off their moves to their parents and friends.

It never helped that the people I played with never saw a real melee combat, either. So, we never had any real life experience to back up why the combat rounds were the way they were.

I always thought that a 2 second combat round would work to my tastes, as that looks like the kind of round that would work in a Hong Kong style action movie. But most of what you see in the modern-style Hong Kong movies (like of lot of Jackie Chan's) are the "rush in and pummel" kind of combat--even where weapons are used.

[Trifletraxor]

I always thought that a 2 second combat round would work to my tastes, as that looks like the kind of round that would work in a Hong Kong style action movie.

Then that's what you should go with. RPG combat is not meant to be realistic, only feel realistic.

SGL.

[frogspawner]

Are there any rules in the new BRP book about non-round combat rounds?

Nope! BUT, if you have any, please do share!

Do you know the EnGarde combat system? I think that's a good "non-round combat rounds" method.

For those who don't know it, you specify particular manoevres like Slash, Cut, Lunge, Jump-back, Kick, etc. Each has a set sequence, including rest/recovery/preparation time, lasting a variable number of (what I presume to be) seconds. Cross-referencing the participants' actions at the moment a given move strikes home determines the exact damage.

[Puck]

Yes, it's considered a non-combat action. I felt it made more sense that combat attacks resolved faster than a move from a to b. I felt it would fit well game-mechanic wise also. Moving during combat didn't come up that much during playtesting though. Is there any problems you can see with this? What do you feel is strange with it?

I cannot see any problems at all, it may work even better. :thumb: The reason it seems a little strange is that most systems I have ever played with had movement before attack.

I am kind of trying to think what would happen if in your example Roman had to close on the guard from a distance rather than coming upon them from around a corner. That is more typical of the kind of combats I run across in role-playing. I imagine guard one would get an extra shot off as Roman closed to close combat range. Then both guards would get an attack in round 2.

One question am curious about is how far a character could move in one strike rank. BRP has characters moving 30 meters per combat turn and 5 meters for free if they attack.

I am not really trying to be nit-picky, but I really like your system and I know this kind of thing will come up with players (I often use chits and a grid map for role-playing where movement becomes important).

[Dredj]

Do you know the EnGarde combat system? I think that's a good "non-round combat rounds" method.

For those who don't know it, you specify particular manoevres like Slash, Cut, Lunge, Jump-back, Kick, etc. Each has a set sequence, including rest/recovery/preparation time, lasting a variable number of (what I presume to be) seconds. Cross-referencing the participants' actions at the moment a given move strikes home determines the exact damage.

Do you have a link to this?

[frogspawner]

Do you have a link to this?

Tables for the "En Garde!" system can be found here, the ones for combat are on page 2.

The way it works is each side initially writes down a sequence of routines which lasts for at least 12 seconds (e.g. Block, Block, Lunge, Slash, Furious Lunge = BBxLxxSLxxCxxx). Second-by-second actions are then compared by cross-referncing on Duelling Table B. I believe the higher DEX has the advantage of only having to give a 6-second sequence initially (or something like that) - thus being able to see what the other guy is doing and react accordingly. It's a system designed for Pencil-and-Paper, ideal for PBM but a bit cumbersome for FTF.

A few years ago, I tried combining it with BRP-style d100 attacks/parries/damage - but that was really cumbersome. The VBScript page I did to automate it is here. To run it, select opponents, click "?" for each of them to randomly-choose some routines, then click "Start". That'll show you my descriptions and combat resolution, and should give a fair idea of how proper En Garde! works. (If both survive the first 'round', click "?" again to add more routines to their sequence, and "Start" again.)

[Mugen]

Exalted v2 (among others...) have an interesting way of handling combat without rounds. It is quite similar to RQ2/3's Strike Ranks, but without round limits to Strike ranks.

Each action have a different initiative value, which is in fact the number of "ticks" you must wait before your next action.

In Exalted v2 logic, a 2-handed weapon will be slow and therefore have an initiative of 6 whereas a 1-handed weapon will have an initiative of 4.

So, if you begin attacking at tick 0 and don't do anything but attack, you will strike at ticks 4, 8, 12 with a 1-handed weapon, and ticks 6, 12, 18 with a 2-handed sword.

Note that this system may be cumbersome if some intelligent bookkeeping method is not used.

Note also that attack speeds should not be too closely tied on one's stats to avoid skilled dagger users with high DEX attacking each tick...

[NickMiddleton]

BRP did roundless combat in Ringworld, and Niall Shapero also tried a smiliar system in Other Suns - it's a while since I read (and longer since I played) either system, but my memory is that they were both a book keeping nightmare that actually added little.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[Trifletraxor]

One question am curious about is how far a character could move in one strike rank. BRP has characters moving 30 meters per combat turn and 5 meters for free if they attack.

If using one Action to move (non-combat action), I'd say the character's MOV in meters would be the distance - so 10 meters for humans.

If using the entire Combat Round to move (both Actions), I'd say 30 meters.

I am kind of trying to think what would happen if in your example Roman had to close on the guard from a distance rather than coming upon them from around a corner. That is more typical of the kind of combats I run across in role-playing. I imagine guard one would get an extra shot off as Roman closed to close combat range. Then both guards would get an attack in round 2.

Example:

Roman Batou, a half-mad zealot wearing light battle armor and wielding a vibrosword, has just been been spotted by two guards 7 meters away. Guard one has a laser pistol, while guard two is wielding a stun lance. Instead of following their orders to drop his weapon, Roman run screaming towards them with his sword high:

Combat Round 1, Strike Rank 1: Guard one with the laser pistol (ROF 3 missile weapon), attacks first and hits, but fails to penetrate Romans armor. Guard two with the stun lance awaits Romans charge (chose not to act in Strike Rank 1). Roman move in on the guards (non-combat action). Strike Rank 2: Guard one fires again with his laser pistol, hits and Roman takes 5 points of damage going through his armor, a minor wound. Guard two attacks Roman with his stun lance again (long range melee weapon), which Roman chose to ignore, and thankfully misses. Roman then attacks gurad 2 with his sword (medium range melee weapon), but guard two makes a successfull parry with his lance. Roman and guard two have both used up their Actions. As guard one fired on both SR 1 and 2 with a ROF 3 weapon, he is entitled to a third shot on SR 3. Strike Rank 3: Guard one fires again. Another hit, this one a special doing 6 points of damage through Roman's armor. With only 2 general hit points left, Roman drops unconscious, and later awakens at a facility for the criminally insane.

I am not really trying to be nit-picky, but I really like your system and I know this kind of thing will come up with players (I often use chits and a grid map for role-playing where movement becomes important).

The system have only been playtested once, so being nit-picky only helps to develop it further and illuminate any flaws that need fixing.

SGL.

[Puck]

Thanks. That is about how I thought it would happen. The cool thing is that it keeps the whole thing simple and organized while adding the weapon reach.

[Kloster]

BRP did roundless combat in Ringworld, and Niall Shapero also tried a smiliar system in Other Suns - it's a while since I read (and longer since I played) either system, but my memory is that they were both a book keeping nightmare that actually added little.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

I've never played Other Suns, but my rememberance of Ringworld is also of a lot of bookkeeping (too much for my tastes, and I LOVE RQIII, Hero and Car Wars).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Tables for the "En Garde!" system can be found here, the ones for combat are on page 2.

The way it works is each side initially writes down a sequence of routines which lasts for at least 12 seconds (e.g. Block, Block, Lunge, Slash, Furious Lunge = BBxLxxSLxxCxxx). Second-by-second actions are then compared by cross-referncing on Duelling Table B. I believe the higher DEX has the advantage of only having to give a 6-second sequence initially (or something like that) - thus being able to see what the other guy is doing and react accordingly. It's a system designed for Pencil-and-Paper, ideal for PBM but a bit cumbersome for FTF.

A few years ago, I tried combining it with BRP-style d100 attacks/parries/damage - but that was really cumbersome. The VBScript page I did to automate it is here. To run it, select opponents, click "?" for each of them to randomly-choose some routines, then click "Start". That'll show you my descriptions and combat resolution, and should give a fair idea of how proper En Garde! works. (If both survive the first 'round', click "?" again to add more routines to their sequence, and "Start" again.)

Several years ago, we tried to replace the combat turn of En Garde! by one inspired from Flashing Blades, because, even for PBM, it is cumbersome, but we reverted back, because, at least it is working fine (for pbm).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[frogspawner]

Several years ago, we tried to replace the combat turn of En Garde! by one inspired from Flashing Blades...

I don't know Flashing Blades. How does it work?

[Kloster]

I don't know Flashing Blades. How does it work?

Flashing Blades is an old game by FGU (1984). Actions are resolved by throwing a D20 under a characteristic determined by the skill being used.

Damaged are localized.

From memory (and translating back from french to english):

- each round is split in 2 phases.

- each character writes in secret what actions (offensive and/or moves) he is taking in each phase at the beginning of the round, and what kind of offense he is trying to counter most. Most attacks take 1 phase, but some (the fleche for instance, are taking 2).

- each phase is resolved in order, and if the defender guessed right on his opponent attack, he gets a bonus on his defense roll.

- each style gives bonus and malus on the differents weapons and manoeuvers.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Dredj]

This is a little off subject, but it seems like Flashing Blades is actually a "simplified" version of BRP. Has anyone tried to convert characters between the two systems?

[sladethesniper]

First, I like the combat system as presented by trif. It is quick and easy and fairly realistic. The movement rates are what I use (although, once again, I am sticking to Imperial Feet. Silly world with your Metric system for easy conversions, bah!)

As for combat rules in general:

I participated in two stickfighting matches in switzerland a couple of years ago, where we used very little protection, and the potential for fractures where a real danger. In those fights more time where used for circling, looking for openings and feinting than real commited attacks.

I would go with that explanation for why RPG unarmed combat seems so out of place with reality. Combat to play around is stupid looking...lots of flailing and poor form. Combat to hurt someone is better, especially when done by professionals (look at how Judo masters do it...usually the bout is done in about 10 seconds...most highly skilled fighters versus other highly skilled fighters follow that pattern in my experience....very little flailing, but very measured actions that result in quick victories or a flurry of blows that will quickly decide a "winner")

The exception is MMA where submission seems to be all the rage these days instead of knock outs...meh. Submissions are nice one on one, but a lot of people seem to have friends, and that doesn't work too well IMO.

For people that kill other people for a living or a hobby, they seem to be pretty damn good at it. Serial killers (usually untrained) seem quite able to kill another human quite easily.

Why this disparity between "fighting", "winning" and "killing"? Well, that's pretty simply actually: most people can't/won't fight to kill...the reasons are myriad, but it pretty much boils down to three things: humans can take a LOT of damage before the expire, most people are not trained to use a weapon (any weapon, much less hands and feet) effectively (and thus have a hard time doing damage, much less enough to cause a person to die) and MOST people don't really want to kill another human being...hurt, humiliate, maybe even cripple, but it is rare for someone to think "you know, I want to kill that guy over there" and then do it, much less do it effectively.

The problem with RPG's is that the "baseline" for "most" characters tends to be a highly trained, well armed, sociopath...think about it...there are a lot of games where characters are basically racially motivated mass murderers that specialize in home invasion...

I digress...even in mixed martial arts competitions, police training or "hard core" self defense classes...the RESULT is supposed to be stopping the threat, or defeating the opponent.

In contrast, in RPG's the point (usually) is to quickly and efficiently KILL the monster, bad guy, NPC's, whatever...not stop them, or escape or scare them.

To simulate the fact that killing is the primary point of combat in RPG's, the characters are (usually) sociopathic murderers so that they won't pull punches or feel bad when covered in blood or looking into the eyes of their victim(s) day after day of slaughtering "monsters" (for immoral reasons in most cases), and they are well trained so they won't waste their time punching people in the head or body...they will go directly for genitals, eyes, ears, fingers, shins, nerve clusters and other easily destroyed, "high payoff targets"...

A normal person will punch someone in the face or push them. A fighter will try to punch them in the nose to break it and give them that "wake up call". A killer will kick them in the groin or punch them in the solar plexus, preferably from the shadows...or even better, just stab them in the kidneys from behind and run away to wait for them to die...or the best option is to kill them from hiding, at range and with some friends to help.

RPG game combat is not unrealistic...RPG characters are, especially when compared to the average western educated, middle class gamer.

Just my opinion.

-STS

[Shaira]

RPG game combat is not unrealistic...RPG characters are, especially when compared to the average western educated, middle class gamer.

I think that's a really interesting point. What little combat I have witnessed has rarely been heroic, and in fact rather grubby, primitive, savage and, well, murderous. I remember the hand-to-hand scene in Saving Private Ryan - two guys with no real weapons trying to kill each other. Nothing admirable - just gritty and all rather sad.

That's certainly not the paradigm I game in, nor something I'm trying to emulate in my games - great noble battles a la viking sagas, LOTR, etc. Tales of heroism and derring-do, success against impossible odds, saving the world. So you end up with a contradiction: to a certain extent, most RPGs *don't want* super-realistic combat, but rather heroic, feel-good, adventuresome combat.

I agree you can use the BRP rules to simulate "realistic" combat, indeed far more than D20 et al; I personally however am not sure in my games that I'd actually want to! Give me the Battle of Pelennor Fields over two guys scrabbling in the mud any day - the characters in my campaigns are Aragorns, Gandalfs, and Frodos, and occasionally Elrics, not Ted Bundys!

Cheers,

Sarah