Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[Jenx]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page - that illustration is not how a Praxian would depict Eiritha. It is, ultimately, an outsider's view of the goddess.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Jenx said:

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page - that illustration is not how a Praxian would depict Eiritha. It is, ultimately, an outsider's view of the goddess.

So, for a glimpse of High Llama Eiritha, we should look at Elusu's story of the Cradle instead?

[Jenx]

It would be a representation closer to home, yes. However listening to a Trickster to get a somehow "truer" opinion on something is futile, to say the least.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Jenx said:

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page - that illustration is not how a Praxian would depict Eiritha. It is, ultimately, an outsider's view of the goddess.

No doubt, though in depicting the Paps I tried to show a Gods Age temple façade. The modern Praxians are as far removed from the God Time culture of Genert's Garden as, say, modern Egyptians from the dynasties of the Old Kingdom... But any pictorial reference is useful.

Edited February 13, 2018 by M Helsdon

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder how much Eiritha's hagiography will have that pregnant human female and how much she will have cow's attributes, like an always-full udder.

The Paps is likely where most imagery and statuary of Eiritha herself exists. Eiritha is an animal mother who’s

Quote

 daughters, each a goddess and the mother of a species of friendly animal.

She herself is the Goddess of the Herds, the herd mother. She’s predominantly shown as a animal headed female human. Sometimes as a giant herd beast. Exact details will depend on which version is shown.

As per Cults of Prax, in the tribes, it’s not Eiritha who is worshipped, but the tribal protectress. She too appears in either form. However it’s obvious that a few cool thinks exist - dolls of the pregnant Protectress will have a an openable stomach to reveal a removable herd beast. Probably made of bone, cloth, horn, wood, etc. 

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

If anatomically correct (memories from watching the James Herriot veterinary stories...), her birthing orifice would be somewhat to the north and east. but IIRC Waha was born at the Paps and not back there.

You are totally correct. I think Waha is born directly from the Earth in the correct area and nurtured at the Paps. This is a Praxian secret, in that it’s obvious to Praxians, but not outsiders. Outsiders don’t see the secret birthing ritual, they just see Waha at the Paps. 

[Zit]

On 2/11/2018 at 8:57 PM, M Helsdon said:

My interpretation of the Paps.

The inset is to provide a sense of scale.

The Paps are known as the Deep Womb of the Goddess, sacred to the goddess Eiritha and her son, Waha, as it was here that Eiritha hid herself from Death by going underneath the earth. The Paps are an enormous underground earth temple, a vestige of the Golden Age.

As an ancient and major Earth temple, the facade is very large. Originally a limestone processional way led up to the entrance, but the ramp was destroyed or demolished during the Gods War. The pillars depict each of the original ten Herd Mothers, damaged to a greater or lesser degree, with some portraying creatures now extinct. Between the pillars are reliefs of life in Prax before Time, severely eroded. These panels show animals and peoples now unknown to the inhabitants of Prax, from when it was part of Genert's Garden.

(continuing here a discussion from Google +)

I understand Genert's Garden as a kind of lost Eden, with unsettled people, without town or administration, close to the nature and a very natural and simple worship. So I think it is legitimate to see them as no builders as well. Same for the following nomads. It is my own interpretation -YGWV-, but it hurts me a bit to see such people building something elaborate like Petra and I'd rather see their sacred places as almost untouched remarkable natural landmarks -although I must admit that @M Helsdon's picture is quite appealing to me. Unless some foreigners built it ?

[Noita]

Are slaves bought and sold in New Pavis?

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Zit said:

So I think it is legitimate to see them as no builders as well. Same for the following nomads.

The number of ruined God Time cities in Prax and the Wastelands suggests that many of the inhabitants of Genert's Garden were builders. Even the monkeys.

The Animal Nomads are effectively living in a post-apocalyptic environment, and have neither the inclination nor the technical skills to build large structures. Instead, they have the skills necessary to live in such an ecologically degraded land.

[David Scott]

but it hurts me a bit to see such people building something elaborate like Petra and I'd rather see their sacred places as almost untouched remarkable natural landmarks -although I must admit that @M Helsdon's picture is quite appealing to me. Unless some foreigners built it

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The number of ruined God Time cities in Prax and the Wastelands suggests that many of the inhabitants of Genert's Garden were builders. Even the monkeys.

@Zit Eiritha's tomb was likely built by her children or those gods around at the time - Tada, his sons, Genert, his sons, mostali, there's a huge list to drawn on. There's a dwarf city right next to the Eiritha Hills who in my opinion are the likely candidates. Just as most were flouncing around in tie-dye and hemp clothing talking to the animals doesn't preclude some being active in making, shaping and building. This was still the godtime.

Edited February 20, 2018 by David Scott

[kalidor]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

@Zit Eiritha's tomb was likely built by her children or those gods around at the time - Tada, his sons, Genert, his sons, mostali, there's a huge list to drawn on. There's a dwarf city right next to the Eiritha Hills who in my opinion are the likely candidates. Just as most were flouncing around in tie-dye and hemp clothing talking to the animals doesn't preclude some being active in making, shaping and building. This was still the godtime.

Hi, 

About the entities  refugeed at the Paps. Were there gods/goddess of diferent elements (air, fire, earth...) and runes (truth, harmony, movement.....) Those gods/goddess  are no longer worshipped outside the Paps?. How can their cults be restored?

 

Thanks.

 

[Joerg]

23 hours ago, Zit said:

I understand Genert's Garden as a kind of lost Eden, with unsettled people, without town or administration, close to the nature and a very natural and simple worship. So I think it is legitimate to see them as no builders as well.

That would be true for Early Golden Age, but Genert's Garden lasted all the way through the Storm Age, seeing changes and reacting to them. Like integrating the Beast Nomads who could only have joined the Garden population earliest in the Late Golden Age, after the dismemberment of Umath.

I see a certain continuity between Genert's Garden, Ezel, the Green Woman of Estali, and Seshna Likita in distant Seshnela. These earth temples were both caves and elaborately carved entrance walls. There are no naturally occurring cubic caves, so the earth cultists would have carved out holy chambers in the shape of their grandmother, too. Quite likely not using tools, but magic.

I also see a lot of room for snake-bottomed earth folk similar to the figures of Genert and Pamalt in the upcoming Gods War boardgame, almost another forgotten Elder Race. (Pretty much like the bird folk everywhere but in the East Isles.) The snake guardians of the paps (only featuring a female human head) might be such a remnant.

 

Quote

Same for the following nomads. It is my own interpretation -YGWV-, but it hurts me a bit to see such people building something elaborate like Petra and I'd rather see their sacred places as almost untouched remarkable natural landmarks -although I must admit that @M Helsdon's picture is quite appealing to me. Unless some foreigners built it ?

I think you are semi-correct in this. Much of the sculpting of the outsides of those temples may indeed come from the various husbands.

 

I do disagree with "almost untouched remarkable natural landmarks".  Some of the most holy caves may have been grown rather carved out, like organs grown in a body, but all are intentional. Some may have been eroded out by one of the partners of the Earth, whether rivers, lava flows, or wind erosion. But that's restricted to the birth mysteries.

If you look at Genert and the Earth Walkers, they all take great pride in being shapers (a trait taken over by Lodril, too). They may start out as paleolithic shapers, but that's even before the Golden Age. It is hard to keep the Earth Queen pleased, so hubby has to acquire new tricks again and again to show them off, as a part of the foreplay. Or at least that is his perception of his status in the relationship.

So, we get Tada not only as a raiser of mountain chains, but also as a shaper who left things like the Sleeping City, and many of whose creations were destroyed along with the Garden when Chaos invaded. The Paps survived.

 

The outer wall of the Paps would be of recent, Storm Age origin anyway - that's when Tada raised the Eiritha Hills to cover his goddess wife to trick Death. Before, there may have been an underground structure, possibly also a ziggurat (they are earth inventions inherited by the Solars), but everything that may have been behind that facade line was covered with the Eiritha Hills when Tada hid Eiritha.

Prax itself has at least two ruins of former "cities" - Monkey Ruins and Winter Ruins. Ex is rumored to hide possibly flattened ruins of a city, too.

 

I don't expect any uniform architectural styles in much of the Garden. It has always been a patchwork of numerous different cultures, rudimentarily known from some of the Eternal Battle units or from the Tada-Shi counters for Nomad gods.

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, kalidor said:

About the entities  refugeed at the Paps. Were there gods/goddess of diferent elements (air, fire, earth...) and runes (truth, harmony, movement.....)

These are the Paps cults now there with Eiritha. Have a look at Cults of Prax, Eiritha cult, this is my list for HQG:

Babeester Gor (Earth & Death) - Defended the Paps in the Great Darkness

Earth Witch (Earth) - She kept the memories of the Earth Goddesses alive in the Great Darkness and helped birth Waha.

48 Old Ones (Life) - the old agricultural spirits that sought shelter at the Paps in the Great Darkness.

Three Bean Circus (Harmony) reappeared at the Dawn.

The Good Shepherd (Life & Spirit) - psychopomp of the Praxian Tradition

Mahome (Fire) - Taken to the Paps by Waha to keep them warm.

Ronance  (Movement) - He scavenged food for the Paps survivors.

The Serpent Guardians (Earth) Reptilian Guardian of the Paps, they also pull Ronances's chariot.

The Protectresses (Life & Beast), rescued by Waha, taken to the Paps, reunited at the Dawn with their descendants.

---

At the Dawn, Eiritha, Aldrya and Ernalda came up from the underworld where they had slept and took up residence in the Paps temples and shrines. None of them ventured far. Ernalda and Aldrya were greatly weakened in the Wastelands and Eiritha worked through the agency of her daughters, the Protectresses.

There are likely other small spirits that hid in the Paps, so you can add your own. For certain there is a baby daughter of Genert and Gata (see Glorantha Sourcebook p88).

You might also find this helpful:

 

 

 

 

[Noita]

I wonder if the serpents pulling Ronance's chariot are in fact the seasonal rivers bringing fertility to the land. 

[David Scott]

24 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

I wonder if the serpents pulling Ronance's chariot are in fact the seasonal rivers bringing fertility to the land. 

That's a very reasonable suggestion. I don't think he's got any water connections except through his wife at Ronance Well (GtG):

Quote

Ronance and his water spirit wife lived here. The Great Darkness greatly weakened his fertility powers, and now he is only able to live at the Paps with his mother. When occasionally he visits, it is said that any woman present at the oasis can choose to bear twins that year.

She doesn't have any serpent connections.

 

 

[Joerg]

46 minutes ago, David Scott said:

That's a very reasonable suggestion. I don't think he's got any water connections except through his wife at Ronance Well (GtG):

I think that Ronance's Roads, which create a network of ley lines between the oases, along the main directions of the hex grid overlay, serve as the (possibly only remaining) connection between the oases and the associated catchment areas. This gives him a rather indirect connection to the waters.

Other than that, I am perfectly happy to have Earth Serpents draw his chariot in the Godtime.

And I disagree with David's earlier comment that they are similar to the serpent guardians from the old WF counter. Ronance is one of the few entities in NG which have an adequate illustration. I found it quite inspiring, and wouldn't depart from it without deeper mythic need.

 

 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Like integrating the Beast Nomads who could only have joined the Garden population earliest in the Late Golden Age, after the dismemberment of Umath.

They weren't Beast nomads then. They were born in the Garden and so were natives of it, so no integration needed. As for the timing, well in the god time it's endless moments last forever. Plenty of time for Storm Bull to wed Eiritha, and their sons and daughters to wed and have their 2-legged and 4-legged children. Their family would have rejoiced at these new children - their Grandparents StormBull, Eiritha and the Good Shepherd, Great Grandparents Ernalda and Tada, and Great Great Grandfather Genert all would have rejoiced at the new creation. Cults of Prax:

Quote

In the Golden Age the Storm Bull led his sons down to the fertile lands of Prax where they befriended the peoples and wed the goddesses. The mother of the land was Ernalda, and she gave the Storm Bull her daughter Eiritha as his own wife. This way the two forces worked together to create their world.

They would have roamed freely in the Garden visiting their relatives, eating, drinking and living the utopian life. When the Gods war began (GtG):

Quote

During this time, the institution of worship spread as the lesser races sought protection and support from the greater entities.

They began raising structures to honour their family or getting others to do so. "Hey Mostali can you build me / help me build / show me how to build a marvellous temple honouring my (insert family member name). 

I'm always inspired by Jack Kirby's Lord of Light illustrations for Generts Garden and Palace:

Replace the gods with @Jenx's genealogy images from the Glorantha sourcebook p88, left to right Genert, Aldrya, Eiritha, Ernalda, Tada,

Genert on his throne:

(replace legs with snake body...)

for more inspiration, checkout Kirby's 'Brahma Supremacy', & 'Northeast Corner of Heaven' (https://imgur.com/r/ImagesOfThe1960s/rQJuM)

They only became the Animal Nomads at the Dawn with the separation of 2-legged and 4-leggeds agreed by the Covenant, the Dawn was very black and white by comparison.

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And I disagree with David's earlier comment that they are similar to the serpent guardians from the old WF counter. Ronance is one of the few entities in NG which have an adequate illustration. I found it quite inspiring, and wouldn't depart from it without deeper mythic need.

Earth temples contain lots of different sacred serpents guarding them. Not all of the Serpent Guardians are the type in Nomad Gods and WF#7. Many are just giant (magical) snakes such as those pulling Ronance's chariot. 

Nomad Gods says:

Quote

THE SERPENT GUARDIANS

These reptilian creatures are found guarding many important Earth-temples across the world but only in Prax are they of such strength that they can leave their homes and fight abroad. The queen is snake-headed and tailed, yet otherwise like a woman. Her attendants are woman-headed snakes of great size and full of deadly poison.

As such all of these are the children of Sanama. Sanama is clearly (to me) one of Ernalda's daughters.

The bigger problem is that serpent has been used throughout Gloranthan books, likewise the term guardian is also ambiguous to me.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They weren't Beast nomads then.

I disagree. They were nomadic tribes of joint beast and humans, much like the Uncolings or the Damali, only without the shapeshifting between the two forms of people. They didn't slaughter either of their tribal members (permanently, there may have been ritual feasts of their own with the eaten returning to life the next morning, or whichever event would announce the start of a new day-cycle).

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They were born in the Garden and so were natives of it, so no integration needed.

That very much depends on how broad your definition of the Garden is. I have taken the "Storm Bull and his Sons" to be already beast sires and human sires trekking down from the Spike, much like other groups like e.g. Desero, the Andam Horde, or the Ram People.

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As for the timing, well in the god time it's endless moments last forever. Plenty of time for Storm Bull to wed Eiritha, and their sons and daughters to wed and have their 2-legged and 4-legged children. Their family would have rejoiced at these new children - their Grandparents StormBull, Eiritha and the Good Shepherd, Great Grandparents Ernalda and Tada, and Great Great Grandfather Genert all would have rejoiced at the new creation. 

Not to forget Hykim and Mikyh... and not as God Learner constructs, either, but as very real serpent and/or draconic entities.

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Cults of Prax:

Yeah, my source exactly. A Downland Migration of Storm folk, deities and demigods, humans and beasts. Like with Orlanth, the wedding both predates the migration and happens when the migrating folk reach their destination - the cyclical nature of Godtime, not just timeless, but also logical loops.

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They would have roamed freely in the Garden visiting their relatives, eating, drinking and living the utopian life.

An utopia already with edges. The Beast nomads never experienced the Green Age directly, unlike many of the Garden residents.

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

When the Gods war began (GtG):

They began raising structures to honour their family or getting others to do so. "Hey Mostali can you build me / help me build / show me how to build a marvellous temple honouring my (insert family member name). 

I'm always inspired by Jack Kirby's Lord of Light illustrations for Generts Garden and Palace:

That image brings to me the Chroma "deities" of Brandon Sanderson's "Warbreaker".

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Replace the gods with @Jenx's genealogy images from the Glorantha sourcebook p88, left to right Genert, Aldrya, Eiritha, Ernalda, Tada,

Only from a certain angle, and for certain observers.

Personally, I find a lot more identification with Kalin's illustrations of Elusu's storytime. A different sort of weird trip, mixed in being overawed/wowed while at the same time not quite that distant from these entities.

I am sort of wary of the "perfect utopia", too. A hefty dose of J.M.Barrie's Neverland with its serious while they last excursions into conflict and drama while returning to the campfires is required, too, and I cannot see how the Storm Bull or any of his followers would refrain from such stomps. This is Late Golden Age, the era when Vadrus leads the Vadrudi howling across the world. Perhaps not directly into Genert's Garden, but then again the definition of that Garden might vary for different observations.

And there begins a need for the protection by these mighty entities, the foundations of worship. Still an utopia, but no longer a guaranteed utopia, but an actively supported one. (And that throughout the Storm Age, too, with the amount of support required steadily on the rise.)

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

(replace legs with snake body...)

But keep the footstool deities /godlings levitating the Earth King?

With that serpent tail, I would expect the throne to be a ramped ziggurat (no tiers, but an ongoing ramp, though probably not a round spiral) instead. Made from living earth, blooming and blossoming where the divine serpent tail doesn't cover it at the moment.

A certain similarity to the Sun Dragon on the Footstool...

When it comes to visual inspirations, I am closer to some of the more idyllic and alien episodes of the Valerian and Veronique comic books or other French-originating comics presenting fantastically alien worlds, or a non-dystopian take at Kill Six Billion Demons.

 

15 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They only became the Animal Nomads at the Dawn with the separation of 2-legged and 4-leggeds agreed by the Covenant, the Dawn was very black and white by comparison.

That's when they became Beast Riders and herders, and IMO not at the Dawn, but in the Grey Age, and probably just cementing unsavory survival efforts from the Greater Darkness.

But that's just me.

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Earth temples contain lots of different sacred serpents guarding them. Not all of the Serpent Guardians are the type in Nomad Gods and WF#7. Many are just giant (magical) snakes such as those pulling Ronance's chariot. 

Yes. Sacred serpents. Not serpent guardians.

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Nomad Gods says:

As such all of these are the children of Sanama. Sanama is clearly (to me) one of Ernalda's daughters.

If not an older form of Ernalda.

 

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The bigger problem is that serpent has been used throughout Gloranthan books, likewise the term guardian is also ambiguous to me.

The increasing association of serpent with water was one of the bad surprises I encountered in Glorantha. The serpent is the Earth Beast because it moves slithering, remaining in full contact with the Earth. (Even the sidewinder.)

[kalidor]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Earth temples contain lots of different sacred serpents guarding them. Not all of the Serpent Guardians are the type in Nomad Gods and WF#7. Many are just giant (magical) snakes such as those pulling Ronance's chariot. 

Nomad Gods says:

As such all of these are the children of Sanama. Sanama is clearly (to me) one of Ernalda's daughters.

The bigger problem is that serpent has been used throughout Gloranthan books, likewise the term guardian is also ambiguous to me.

 

Hi,

Sanama? is another of the  Paps goddess?

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Sanama? is another of the  Paps goddess?

Snake Goddess, look on row IV of the God's Wall. Very likely has a shrine in the Paps.

[jeffjerwin]

Could this be connected to the Serpentbeast Brotherhood that fought/expelled Yinkin? (BoHM)

[Tindalos]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

As such all of these are the children of Sanama. Sanama is clearly (to me) one of Ernalda's daughters.

Probably linked with Talosa, the daughter of Ernalda, mother of snakes, and mother of the serpent-like earth elementals called Talosi. (Who the Serpent Guardians may be powerful examples of.)

 

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The increasing association of serpent with water was one of the bad surprises I encountered in Glorantha. The serpent is the Earth Beast because it moves slithering, remaining in full contact with the Earth. (Even the sidewinder.)

My guess is that the watery serpents are a different kind beast to snakes; connected more with the draconic than the reptilian, in the way of Aroka, Oslira, Lorion, Sshorga, and others.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Could this be connected to the Serpentbeast Brotherhood that fought/expelled Yinkin? (BoHM)

Not really a Praxian answer, but very much yes - the western Hykimi all were deeply grounded in the Earth Goddess network of Seshna, Ralia/Green Lady, and presumably Frona, which extended to Eiritha's Prax, and also found in Ezel in Esrolia. All of the Western Hsunchen are sort of Earth Cultists by default, though rarely approaching agriculturalism or even just horticulture.

But there ought to be agricultural or at least horticultural enclaves in their lands where the centers of Earth Worship are located. Possibly by a part-serpent Elder Race.