Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[David Scott]

I'm not going to disagree with your interpretation as YGWV, however you have given an excellent example of cross-tribal society meeting.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

So what happens when the Sables who have accepted the Red Moon meets the White Bull Sables? They sit down all chummy by the fireside and laugh about the vagueries of the deities like a bunch of old illuminates?  Probably not

It's very possible that this can happen. But not as simple as you say. Accepting the Red Moon can mean a couple of things. It can mean that they are sables who have transitioned from the Hidden Ancestor society to the Twinstars society. They could be Sables who aren't members of either of those societies, but joined the Seven Mothers. Or they could be a mixture of both. There are also Lunarised Sables in the White Bull society. In my sable playtest game, the party covered all of the combinations mentioned and all then joined the White Bull society. The main reason for joining the White Bull society was to remove the Lunars from Prax - Prax for Praxians. And the White Bull society accepts anyone - it seeks to unite the tribes on its goal.

So if this encounter happens, it's likely that the White Bull group has other Praxian tribes in it. Perhaps one group has friends in the other. Perhaps they do sit down and talk. I suspect the talk will be the White Bulls telling the Lunarised Sables to join them or it's going to go horribly wrong for them once the Lunars are out. The others laugh of course (then are mercilessly slaughtered after MoonBroth II - they can't say they weren't warned). I suspect that both groups don't meet, but stay mounted and exchange words. All of their societies are part of the Praxian tradition, there's no reason to fight. There are no herds here.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

if we are drawing on anthropological precedents from our world, like the Bedouins, the Berbers, the Mongols, the Tibetan herders, and the Plains tribes of North America. 

These are all fine sources, but they are all missing the mix of different animal tribes that the Praxians have. It's the tribes that were set against each other. I'm also not saying there isn't politicking within tribes - khans need to be "voted" in the positions of authority. It goes on all the time.

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, David Scott said:

These are all fine sources, but they are all missing the mix of different animal tribes that the Praxians have. It's the tribes that were set against each other. I'm also not saying there isn't politicking within tribes - khans need to be "voted" in the positions of authority. It goes on all the time.

So you see the process of becoming Khan as essentially a democratic process?  It never even occurred to me that a Khan was elected.  I always assumed that Khans were chosen through a more ritual and initiatory process; that clan members were keeping a mental note of who was the best leader, the best raider, the best defender of the herd, the one others might learn from. I assumed that Khans had to perform a series of difficult ordeals, quite apart from their formal Waha initiation, vision quests involving starvation and psychotropics, or more "A man called horse" style pain based initiations, part hazing, part heroquest.  I thought that the child of a Khan gained a huge starting advantage by being around "power" and thus was more likely to inherit as would any noble, not to mention that they would be more likely to receive an advantageous marriage.  Of course the Eiritha priestesses would want  a fertile Khan who would listen to them, and who was an able leader and warrior too, and could play politics to get their candidate selected.  In the case of 2 or more highly able candidates, no doubt there would be a series of trials by ordeal, or a short quest to determine the best candidate.  I would guess however that on most occasions, the present Khan would simply name a successor, and if the successor didn't measure up then the clan would gradually drift into the ambit of another clan for a while before splitting off under another leader.  Voting with their hooves if you will.  I suppose an unpopular or incompetent choice might make people pack up and leave early.  I would have thought that a quasi democratic process like wapentake might be fine to select who would lead a raid, but selecting a Khan would be a lot more of a top-down selection process by the clan religious hierarchy.

To the original point however, I concur that peace would be the preferred norm within a Praxian Beast Tribe, unreservedly even.  I mean of all the people who you can make war on, why your own relatives?  Why your own tribe?  On the other hand, I think human relations have a tendency towards fractiousness, and often the bitterest fights and rivalries are those within an organization or familial group.  That is where prestige and power is handed out, and someone always winds up feeling slighted, someone always has an ambitious spouse who wants a bigger slice of the pie, someone is always bitter that they didn't get the girl or the boy or were the younger brother and nurse a resentment.  I would suspect that a lot of what Waha does around the campfire of an evening in fact is trust building stories and methods to strengthen internal clan bonds and mitigate trouble before it occurs.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Darius West

[Darius West]

What do we know about Praxian bachelor societies and warrior societies ?  I mean we know a lot about Storm Bull, and a bit about Oakfed and the Three Feathered Rivals.  I would imagine there must be a plethora of Praxian spirit cults that sub-initiate within and without clans. Glorantha: The Second Age: Pavis Rises on pages 91-96 details a simple system for randomizing ancestors, and I believe that Avalon Hill's Heroes ran a detailed article on the Ostrich riders that had a write up on their integration of Yelmalio as a warrior society, as well as a boomerang cult? Or has my memory failed me?  We also know from Cults of Prax that Morak is the product of a secret Storm Bull mating ritual conducted by such a society, something that Norayeep oddly seemed a little ashamed of.  On the other hand that suggests that young women join warrior societies too, meaning that Eiritha herd expertise is potentially available, and warrior societies probably have their own herds.  It is also possible for Eiritha worshipers to join such societies looking for a husband if their prospects aren't wonderful with their clan.

 

 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

So you see the process of becoming Khan as essentially a democratic process?  It never even occurred to me that a Khan was elected.

That's not quite what I said:

22 hours ago, David Scott said:

khans need to be "voted" into the positions of authority.

Becoming a khan requires that you:

• Have a community (clan) rating of at least 11W 
• Successfully complete one of the Tasks of Waha
• Have a bronze weapon

This is covered in Waha cult writeup in HeroQuest Glorantha page 170.

To get a position of authority (Clan Chief, Tribal Chief, etc), you have to go through the Choosing Ceremony of Waha.

This is covered in Waha cult writeup in HeroQuest Glorantha page 171.

There will be more details in the Prax book, but this is plenty to get on with.

Edited November 4, 2016 by David Scott

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

What do we know about Praxian bachelor societies and warrior societies ?

The term Bachelor and warrior should be dropped. All of the societies are listed here:

societies form two broad types, tribal and inter-tribal. Within the inter-tribal societies there are often single tribe bands. For example there are mixed sable and impala bands in the Yelmalio society. Some bands may be made up solely of bachelors who are raiding for dowery beasts. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by David Scott

[Darius West]

I guess I am most interested in the Hidden Paths of the Praxian Tradition.  It does specifically say there are many other small societies. These would be the elements that would give individual clans their most distinctive aspects I think.  As for dropping bachelor and warrior terms, really?  I mean, clearly unmarried males  in any tribal society form a distinct classification, and are especially important as a measure of how war ready a population is.  A warrior is simply a term for someone who has an established skill at fighting.  I would assume that a brave is a bachelor, but a married rider has lived long enough and raided hard enough to get a wife and is therefore a warrior.  The notion of bachelor societies is another pretty much ubiquitous term across the nomad and tribal societies of Earth, especially among societies that have a warrior tradition and where the young men therefore need training in those skills. As for warrior societies, that is merely the more adult form of the same thing.  I would imagine that the young men need to compete to earn the right to go from lay members to initiates in the Hidden Paths.

[David Scott]

The Hidden Paths are exactly that, hidden. They are inter-tribal and secret, so invite only. You need to fulfil the standard requirements of spirit rune 1w as with all societies to join and then any other requirements they require. Yes other small societies exist. These are mostly based around a charismatic shaman, and maybe tribal or inter-tribal. Membership will range from 2 to maybe at most 100, but that will be rare. Don't confuse these societies with the spirits from nomad gods. All of those are subsumed into the many friends. An example of a small society from my game is:

(Dragon rune) Grokka. This is dragon spirit often found around the Vast Teeth Hills. Sometimes it goes by the name All Eyes Open But One, but more often calls itself Grokka. Many fear its strange magic and stranger taboos.

It's led by a spirit-talker and currently has 4 member from three different tribes. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by David Scott

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

A warrior is simply a term for someone who has an established skill at fighting.

There two "warrior" groups with the clan structure. The Herd Guard is a mounted group that patrols the herds constantly on the lookout for trouble. Depending on the chaos alert level (see tales 14, Praxian sense of space by Greg Stafford), the Herd Guard patrol inside, around or outside th Herd. The Herd Guard is made up of all "warror" societies, e.g. Waha, humakt, yelmalio, Seven mothers, The second group is a raiding party. This is made up of a majority of "warrior" societies (as before) but with specialists - notably hunters and herders, the former to scout the land, the later to help with the prizes. Some raiding parties could consist of a single society e.g. Just Waha (there are Waha warriors, herders and hunters) or just yelmalions, etc. This will depend on the needs of the clan. Clans aren't organised along society/cult lines (Greg was very specific about this), so there aren't Yelmalion, Humakt, Orlanth or Seven Mother clans. There's always a mix. Women of course join these groups, Vingans, Babeester Gors, Storm Bulls and Seven Mothers join the Herd Guard or Raiding parties. Eiritha herders join raids as herders and healers as well as actual raiders. If a Chaos Herd is detected, those appropriate will form a war party, likely led by the Storm Bulls. As to who leads these groups, depending on which group Ian encountered, it more likely that Waha khans lead the Herd Guard, but Light Khans, Storm Khans and Wind Khans can also be found. The same goes for raiding parties, with a more even mix. Chaos fighting parties normally are led by a Storm Khan. Most are wary of this as they often have magics that force everyone to fight without thought for personal safety. Chaos is bad, everyone fights against it.

As for the separation of those married and unmarried, there is a bachelors fire (mentioned in Cults of Prax IIRC) as the married men are with their wives and children. Bachelors will of course be allowed to do the more risky raids, the Khans know how to use their followers to their best - the younger are more rash, but generally quicker and fitter. There will be bachelor groups sent out to raid for dowery beasts, that too is obvious. They will be led by a Khan as is right and so they don't do anything to stupid. Their mothers entrust their sons to the Khans from the age of 10.

This isn't the Wild West, it's the Wastelands, there's a different reason why things are arranged the way they are.

[Yelm's Light]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

To the original point however, I concur that peace would be the preferred norm within a Praxian Beast Tribe, unreservedly even.  I mean of all the people who you can make war on, why your own relatives?  Why your own tribe?  On the other hand, I think human relations have a tendency towards fractiousness, and often the bitterest fights and rivalries are those within an organization or familial group.  That is where prestige and power is handed out, and someone always winds up feeling slighted, someone always has an ambitious spouse who wants a bigger slice of the pie, someone is always bitter that they didn't get the girl or the boy or were the younger brother and nurse a resentment.  I would suspect that a lot of what Waha does around the campfire of an evening in fact is trust building stories and methods to strengthen internal clan bonds and mitigate trouble before it occurs.

Except for one factor, the survival imperative.  Think of tribes as somewhat analogous to Amerindian tribes before the incursion of the white man.  In general, the people of individual tribes got along together fairly well, even in a generally more hospitable environment.  However, intertribal clashes could be bloody and incurring long-standing enmity.

[Darius West]

A question has been preying on my mind of late.  What motivated Jaldon (Many tooth related sword names)'s fanatical devotion to the destruction of Pavis?  I mean Pavis was a hard and well defended target, and the city had done a lot to foster peace in the region.  I would have thought that Pavis' intentions regarding a re-creation of the Green Age of peace, harmony and prosperity would have appealed to pretty much everyone in Prax.  Praxians definitely benefited from the trade that the city provided too.  Was it entirely to do with revenge for Pavis' alliance with the Pure Horse folk?  Because it would seem that the Pure Horse folk were an easier target than Pavis, but Pavis gets destroyed in 940 while the Pure Horse are not driven from Prax until 1250 at the Battle of Alvan Argay. 

Jaldon is an interesting character.  In life he traveled as far as Kralorela according to the Pavis Common Knowledge handout.

[David Scott]

On 07/11/2016 at 7:43 AM, Darius West said:

What motivated Jaldon

The whole Jaldon, PHP and Pavis history is not as straightforward as you imply. This mostly in Pavis GTA and the Guide with a bit of stuff I've worked on.

First the PHP. They moved into Prax at the beginning of the Second Age, at the invite of the leaders of Dragon Pass who sought to resist the raids of the nomads. They found a tribe of war battered horse barbarians (the PHP) who agreed to come southward from Pent and live in Prax as allies to the King of Dragon Pass. Waha didn’t speak out against this. The nomads fought without the support of Waha against the PHP invaders and were finally smashed at the battle of Necklace Horse. The Praxians were forced to withdraw from the borders of Dragon Pass and spurred what became known as the Second Migration into the Wastelands. The PHP formed a new buffer zone between Dragon Pass and Prax, as had been planned by the leaders of Dragon Pass. The horsemen resisted the nomads, and even expanded their Grazelands into the Zola Fel valley. The nomads now raided the PHP instead of Dragon Pass. Look at the 700 & 900 ST maps in the Guide or the AAA to see the extent of PHP lands. As you can see, the EWF eventually covered the Paps.

Now the origin of Pavis. The walls of Pavis originate from a nomad and giant defence in 800 to prevent anyone stealing anymore cradles. The grazing inside the walls was good and so nomads grazed their herds there while helping defend the area. This success against the Jrusteli sent the nomads on a raiding spree, which in 809 attacked Adari starting the whole Pavis revenge cycle. In 826 EWF formed in Dragon Pass. In 830 Pavis, the Faceless Statue and his allies, the PHP arrived at the walls. The Too Tall Battle ensued and Waha was injured. The EWF then sent an army to the Paps to mop up and further injured Waha. Pavis comes along, heals Waha and negotiates the Peace of Paragua’s Grazing - The Praxians agreed to act peacefully around Robcradle and in return Pavis and his allies would properly respect their beliefs, and sacred grounds. Many of the defeated and shamed clans move across in to the Wastes in what is now called the Third Migration. By 850 the city’s complete. Nomads sit on the city council, but ultimately screw it up. Sitting round tables is not exactly the way of Waha. Later Pavis retires and leaves his city to a PHP bloodline. The King of Pavis - Jorez then performs his great heroquest to turn the PHP rulers of Pavis from invaders to natives and the Zebra tribe are reborn. The Peace of Paragua’s Grazing is broken as they are now Praxians!

The big problem of cradlesnatching is still going on. There’s clearly some kind of link between the giants and the nomads undoubtably through the Paps. Thog turns up, Pavis gets trashed by trolls, etc, but ultimately the giants and Praxians loose the fight.

So the stage is set
The King of Pavis is a Praxian and rules the PHP.
Cradlesnatching is still a problem, we have a long standing deal with the giants
The PHP are still here in large numbers, it's hard to raid Dragon Pass
The PHP are occupying the ancestral grazings of the bison, sables and high llamas
Within the walls is rightfully nomad grazing says the giants
We hate Pavis for what he did to Waha
The Peace of Paragua is no more

Enter Jaldon. Born under auspicious signs, likely from a clan from either the Second or Third migrations (or both) Obviously mad after his Statues experience. He's the charismatic leader type that Praxians like to follow. He has some defeats early in his career, but then returns. He uses his statue connections to open the walls. He's destined for great things, does many Tasks of Waha, becomes Paps Khan, unites the tribes. As Raider Khan, takes the Praxians back into Dragon Pass. Does he want to be king of Pavis - No, does he want the grazing back - yes. He pushes the PHP from the valley, the Paps are freed. EWF are pushed back too. Does Jaldon stop when he's done - no, he's a mad. He pushes EWF back to Dragon Pass, where he over reaches himself and the EWF bring back a heavy to take him down.

Praxians always follow charismatic Raider Khans who unite the tribes. They get glory and loot. There will be another along soon. 

[Darius West]

That was a very good summary.  Thank you for that David.  As I am running a Pavis based campaign atm this is all very valuable to me.  I do have a couple of questions coming out of what you have written, and a couple a bit more out of left field.

1) I know Pavis hides a cradle in the Puzzle Canal to stop the Malkioni from grabbing it.  Did the giants see this as a theft?  Were they not aware of what had happened?  Is this whole sequence of events part of what you mean by the cradle snatching still being a problem?  

2) Did the Arrowsmiths raising the Zebra Tribe damage their alliance with the PHP?  I would have thought that the PHP/Pavic alliance would have been effective in resisting the Praxians, given the apparent inability of Praxians to raid Dragon Pass due to the PHP.  Or were the PHP still effectively keeping their treaty with Waha, and deserted their alliance with Pavis?  I suppose what I am asking, is, given what a nuisance the PHP were, how come Jaldon didn't drive them off BEFORE going after Pavis?  The Battle of Alvan Argay happens hundreds of years later, after all.  I suspect that the PHP tried to intervene with the EWF armies that came to relieve Jaldon's siege, but I can find no mention of this.

3) What did the Praxians perceive was the Pavisite breach of the Peace of Paragua exactly ?  I mean, from what I am aware, there were tribes who did graze within the walls of Pavis, and not just the Zebras.  Did something change?

4) Are you aware of the "Eye of Wakboth" conspiracy theory by Michael  Raaterova published in Questlines 2 ? The notion that the Waggoth power in the Devil's Playground is the real cause for the city, and its downfall (with lots of evil machinations from the EWF, God Learners, and Flintnail cult implied) ? Do you give any weight to the notion that the Stormbulls were mighty offended by the alleged use of chaotic waggoth mercenaries coming out of Pavis, and that is what allowed Jaldon to unite the tribes?

5)  To what do you attribute Jaldon's tooth magic?  It has been suggested that it is actually boggle magic, as boggles can eat anything, (and hence can be said to be trickster related).  

As for there being charismatic Raider Khans... err... isn't it just the same guy who keeps coming back?

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

1) I know Pavis hides a cradle in the Puzzle Canal to stop the Malkioni from grabbing it.  Did the giants see this as a theft?  Were they not aware of what had happened?  Is this whole sequence of events part of what you mean by the cradle snatching still being a problem?  

I'm unaware of this, what's the source please.

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

2) Did the Arrowsmiths raising the Zebra Tribe damage their alliance with the PHP?  I would have thought that the PHP/Pavic alliance would have been effective in resisting the Praxians, given the apparent inability of Praxians to raid Dragon Pass due to the PHP.  Or were the PHP still effectively keeping their treaty with Waha, and deserted their alliance with Pavis?  I suppose what I am asking, is, given what a nuisance the PHP were, how come Jaldon didn't drive them off BEFORE going after Pavis?  The Battle of Alvan Argay happens hundreds of years later, after all.  I suspect that the PHP tried to intervene with the EWF armies that came to relieve Jaldon's siege, but I can find no mention of this.

There are far too many PHP. Look at the maps. They have most of Prax under EWF. It's a numbers game. The Arrowsmiths became the Zebra tribe and remained head of the PHP until the 17 foes of Waha period. By then they were shrinking. The PHP never had a treaty with Waha, they were invaders that defeated the nomads. The PHP were allies of Pavis. Jorez studied with Pavis. Joraz was a powerful magician in his own right. The numbers are what I'll be looking when I get to that part of history.

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

3) What did the Praxians perceive was the Pavisite breach of the Peace of Paragua exactly ?  I mean, from what I am aware, there were tribes who did graze within the walls of Pavis, and not just the Zebras.  Did something change?

The Peace of Paragua's Grazing was very simple. We don't interfere with you - you leave us alone. It was between Pavis/the King of Pavis and the nomads via the Paps. Once the King of Pavis is one of the tribes, then the Peace is broken. It's no longer foreigners versus the rest, it's back to nomad versus nomad raiding. There can be no special considerations against being raided!

[David Scott]

19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

4) Are you aware of the "Eye of Wakboth" conspiracy theory by Michael  Raaterova published in Questlines 2 ? The notion that the Waggoth power in the Devil's Playground is the real cause for the city, and its downfall (with lots of evil machinations from the EWF, God Learners, and Flintnail cult implied) ? Do you give any weight to the notion that the Stormbulls were mighty offended by the alleged use of chaotic waggoth mercenaries coming out of Pavis, and that is what allowed Jaldon to unite the tribes?

I've read it. The city fell for many reasons. All of those are likely part of it in a small way. Jaldon was a charismatic raider, there was plunder to have. I think that's the main reason. Jaldon was Waha reborn in many peoples eyes. It was only right that he went for the city.

[David Scott]

On 08/11/2016 at 3:33 PM, Darius West said:

)  To what do you attribute Jaldon's tooth magic?  It has been suggested that it is actually boggle magic, as boggles can eat anything, (and hence can be said to be trickster related).  

Jaldon is Waha, he's mostly Waha magic. The wall eating teeth magic comes from statues he "befriended" and brought to Pavis. One of my problems with what we have historically written about Glorantha is not the only answer. There can be many more explanation for what is going on than just what was written. If Greg has taught me anything, it's make new stuff up. Okay there are Boggles there, but there's also a lot more stuff. Jaldon was the first and only Khan so far to enact Waha and the Statues.

Edited January 15, 2017 by David Scott
Fixed a ref to Waha that should of said Jaldon.

[David Scott]

29 minutes ago, Darius West said:

As for there being charismatic Raider Khans... err... isn't it just the same guy who keeps coming back?

No there are others that aren't Jaldon. Jorbal Rhino khan was one. Jaldon's days are numbered, Argrath breaks his curse and so he can leave his forced never ending death and reincarnation. He's going to die and only be returnable through great heroquest magics. The greatest Raider Khan takes his place, who is of course Argrath. He leads the Praxians back into Dragon Pass and further.

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, Darius West said:

1) I know Pavis hides a cradle in the Puzzle Canal to stop the Malkioni from grabbing it.  Did the giants see this as a theft?  Were they not aware of what had happened?  Is this whole sequence of events part of what you mean by the cradle snatching still being a problem?

This confuses me a bit. Pavis GtA tells us: The original cradlesnatchers, the Jrusteli are exterminated/flee in 800. From his arrival in 830 Pavis continues the cradlesnatching that the Jrusteli began. In 860 Pavis retires to his temple, The Arrowsmiths take over. The Puzzle Canal isn't built until 920. What Malkioni?

Edited November 9, 2016 by David Scott

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

This confuses me a bit. Pavis GtA tells us: The original cradlesnatchers, the Jrusteli are exterminated/flee in 800. From his arrival in 830 Pavis continues the cradlesnatching that the Jrusteli began. In 860 Pavis retires to his temple, The Arrowsmiths take over. The Puzzle Canal isn't built until 920. What Malkioni?

May be from the non-canonical Pavis Rises.

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm unaware of this, what's the source please.

It is from Glorantha: The Second Age: Pavis Rises.  Pavis, for reasons best known to himself uses the connection of the Puzzle Canal to temporarily hide a cradle, ostensibly to protect it from the Malkioni with the connivance of Labygyron, who also hides the EWF banner within the  cradle in the hidden construction of the canals.  On the other hand it does say on page 7 of Pavis Common Knowledge that Pavis devised traps for cradles.  There are other inconsistencies with Pavis Rises, so I consider Pavis Common Knowledge to be a more reliable source. 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

 What Malkioni?

Remember Arlaten's Tower from Strangers in Prax ?  According to Glorantha: The Second Age Pavis Rises, the Malkioni had various settlements within Pavis, including a presence on what is now Ogre Island where the Great Basher was erected for cradle snatching.  The notion being that cosmopolitainism was a feature of ancient Pavis too, with various denominations of Malkioni having a place there, with even an area devoted to the new Carmanian Empire.  He even allows Jrusteli refugees, including an handful of Zistorites.  I don't hate the idea.  Old Pavis back in the day was supposed to be an amazing place, and diversity can easily account for a large part of that amazingness under a harmony rune.

[Jeff]

Just a warning - none of the Mongoose books are canonical and WILL be contradicted in future publications. Heck Greg and I haven't even read any of them with the exception of Dara Happa Stirs.

[metcalph]

Pavis: Gateway to Adventure does mention a God Learner settlement AKA "Sorceror Town" on the ruins of Robcradle circa 920 ST PGtA p35 (and which was the fore-runner of  Ogre Island).  However Pavis wouldn't have anything to fear from them.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Pavis: Gateway to Adventure does mention a God Learner settlement AKA "Sorceror Town" on the ruins of Robcradle circa 920 ST PGtA p35 (and which was the fore-runner of  Ogre Island).  However Pavis wouldn't have anything to fear from them.

Thanks for the reference Peter, I'll have a look at that later.