Aeolian Church - Heortland

[Joerg]

 

57 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Esvulari do not have a warrior caste according to Jeff.

Right. When would you think this deviation from the Ingareen way of Malkionism occurred? I have to admit that I was looking at more than the Aeolians of Heortland when typing this stuff.

[Evilroddy]

Metcalph:

The Yezidis are a good parallel qualitatively but I caution that there is an order of magnitude greater Yezidi population (950,000-1,500,000) than the 100,000 Esvulari given by Jeff on the previous page. Thus a quantitative parity does not exist. Indeed, there are about 100,000 Yezidis living in Germany and I wonder if they will maintain their religious and cultural identity and traditions in the next 500 years or so. They arrived in large numbers in the1990's and are losing small but significant demographic strength to assimilation and westernization already. Five centuries is a long time!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis

i am not sure how well their caste system will hold up in Germany but I'm not going to bet money either way.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Right. When would you think this deviation from the Ingareen way of Malkionism occurred? I have to admit that I was looking at more than the Aeolians of Heortland when typing this stuff.

Any number of reasons spring to mind.  A data point to consider is that the Esvulari do not also have Men-of-All yet are pretty good transmitters of God Learner governmental practices.

1)  The Esvulari see the Men-of-All as evil and responsible for the abuses of the Cosmos that led to the calamities at the end of the Imperial Age.  Thus they have no men-of-all and by extension a warrior caste to cleanse them of evil.  The commoners took up arms later when it was found that fighting was still required.

2)  The Esvulari Noble Caste is actually extinct (eaten in the Dragonkill) and that the so-called Noble Caste are actaully warriors.  For ceremonial purposes in their magic, the Esvulari acknowledge the Talar of God Forgot as their lawful sovereign (who in return may not even know).

3)  At the end of the Imperial Age to save his people, a desperate Esvulari wizard got his hands on the Spell Forbidden by Urostio and cast it.  It didn't have the desired effect but it did magically abolish the caste differences between the warriors and the farmers to such an extent that even magic spells to detect caste cannot see any difference.  Over time, they've similar stopped caring about trying to observe the differences.

Any one of these or similar to these or even in the same vein would work.  

 

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Evilroddy said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis

 

i am not sure how well their caste system will hold up in Germany but I'm not going to bet money either way.

From what I get to read occasionally in German press, it seems that they do maintain connections to their old lands, and they do import marriage partners.

Genetic evidence suggests that the Cohanim may have practiced endo-caste marriage, but definitely not endo-caste procreation.

 

I asked for the when the Esvulari lost their Horal caste, and Peter provided options for the why:

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Any number of reasons spring to mind.  A data point to consider is that the Esvulari do not also have Men-of-All yet are pretty good transmitters of God Learner governmental practices.

As an originally Zzaburite rather than Hrestoli group, their first encounter with men-of-all may well have been Arkat's Seshnegi companions. At that time, they had to pay both the Kitori and the Hendriki tributes.

RQ Companion and Genertela Book suggested that the Heortlanders named their mounted thanes knights, which translates as "men-of-all" in New Canonical.

As to the why of having no warrior caste, if they adopted Orlanthi traits, every men was a warrior, some more so than others.

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

1)  The Esvulari see the Men-of-All as evil and responsible for the abuses of the Cosmos that led to the calamities at the end of the Imperial Age.  Thus they have no men-of-all and by extension a warrior caste to cleanse them of evil.  The commoners took up arms later when it was found that fighting was still required.

The major cataclysm that the Esvulari had to suffer were the Machine Wars with their collateral damage smack-dab in the middle of their lands, even before the Closing. I wonder whether the Closing taking effect caused much if any negative consequences to the Esvulari.

During the Machine Wars, neither side was beneficial to the Esvulari. The New Unity Council used their lands as staging ground for their army, with all the bad side effects having a huge, non-friendly army on your lands. The Zistorites used weapons of mass destruction, biowarfare and chemical warfare against those troops, in that staging area. A lose-lose situation.

After the fall of the Clanking City, the Closing soon ended any means of the Slontans bypassing the Esrolian roadblock by sea. The Drowning of Slontos didn't affect the Esvulari, and in those years of cosmic upheaval (Sinking of Seshnela 1049 to the appearance of the demon city in Pent 1053) Kethaela suffered only Veskarthan's Devastation of the Vent, and the brunt of that was directed towards Slontos. In the Dragonkill War, the men-of-all from Carmania fought among the northern invaders.

So where are the men-of-all to blame for the misfortunes suffered by the Esvulari at the closing of the Imperial Age?

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

2)  The Esvulari Noble Caste is actually extinct (eaten in the Dragonkill) and that the so-called Noble Caste are actaully warriors.  For ceremonial purposes in their magic, the Esvulari acknowledge the Talar of God Forgot as their lawful sovereign (who in return may not even know).

Possible, but... Maniria sent an army the size of Nochet to the slaughter. Yet the Adjustment Wars continued over the Dragonkill incident almost as if nothing world-moving had happened. If the Hendriki escaped this conflict relatively unscathed (a king without support of his tribe only took his warband and his magicians into the dragons' maws), why should the Esvulari suffer so specifically? The subsequent chaos outbreak from the Print makes a far mor imminent and relevant danger.

 

Speaking of the Dragonkill era, the Kingdom of Night encompassed two EWF successor groups prior to the Dragonkill, the Firetop confederation in the Far Point and a tribal federation covering pretty much the territory of Lunar Tarsh going by the name of Velerar, possibly centered on the Goldedge Sun Dome temple. These entities and the Hendriki presence in Quiviniland ended of course in the Dragonkill, but they spewed tens of thousands of refugees south when the True Golden Horde began to muster.

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

3)  At the end of the Imperial Age to save his people, a desperate Esvulari wizard got his hands on the Spell Forbidden by Urostio and cast it.  It didn't have the desired effect but it did magically abolish the caste differences between the warriors and the farmers to such an extent that even magic spells to detect caste cannot see any difference.  Over time, they've similar stopped caring about trying to observe the differences.

Against which foe? The New Unity Army? The Zistorites? The Chaos eruption? Against the Hendriki victorious in the Adjustment Wars?

 

And I was mainly wondering when this significant deviation from the Zzaburi caste system (that we seem to agree they started with alongside the Ingareens) happened.

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

As an originally Zzaburite rather than Hrestoli group, their first encounter with men-of-all may well have been Arkat's Seshnegi companions. At that time, they had to pay both the Kitori and the Hendriki tributes.

All Malkioni populations are originally Zzaburite.  As for the Hrestoli, the Aeolians could have encountered them any time within the past 375 years before the Sunstop due to naval contact with the Seshnegi and the Slontans via the Waertagi.  The relevance of the tribute to this particular point escapes me.

 

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

RQ Companion and Genertela Book suggested that the Heortlanders named their mounted thanes knights, which translates as "men-of-all" in New Canonical.

A small sidebar here:  I'm not really interested these days in nailing down precise reconciliations of the old material with the new canon as I am of the view there are multiple ways in which such harmony can be achieved and that it's all largely a matter of individual taste.  So I don't think the above suggestion is really necessary to explaining why the Esvulari have no warrior caste.  

Secondly the explanations I posted were suggestions which *deliberately* *contradicted* each other.  I didn't have a care in the world which ones people liked the best (Okay I do, a little bit). I care even less about technical analysis of their relevant merits.  What I would have been most interested in reading was similarly veined explanations/short-and-sweet mythlets about why the Esvulari have no warrior caste rather than a learned digression on the political theatre which is simultaneously well-known, debatable in many places and avoids providing decent suggestions.   

And on the subject of the Spell Forbidden By Urostio could have been cast against:

 

Quote

Against which foe? The New Unity Army? The Zistorites? The Chaos eruption? Against the Hendriki victorious in the Adjustment Wars?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say All Of Them.  Perhaps they cast the spell multiple times and the loss of the warrior caste is the result of their abuses?  

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Metcalph:

The Yezidis are a good parallel qualitatively but I caution that there is an order of magnitude greater Yezidi population (950,000-1,500,000) than the 100,000 Esvulari given by Jeff on the previous page. Thus a quantitative parity does not exist. Indeed, there are about 100,000 Yezidis living in Germany and I wonder if they will maintain their religious and cultural identity and traditions in the next 500 years or so.

That's their current population in a world of seven billion.  How large would their population have been in the age of the Ottomans, Ilkhanate, Abbasids etc.?  My point is not that they will maintain their unchanged traditions  within the next 500 years (I really don't know) that they have maintained their traditions for over 500 years* and thus it's not unreasonable that the Esvulari could do also.  I only mentioned the Yazidis as opposed to the Parsees, the Druze and the Sabaens  was that they had two endogamous castes similar to that which you were worried would unviable among the Esvulari.  I am quite happy to agree that the Esvulari would have been on the lower bounds of the necessary population to maintain cultural continuity.

*Strictly speaking they would say something like 2000 years but I'm wise in the way of back-dating traditions to realise that the current traditions could have come into being significantly later than than.

[Jeff]

On 7/5/2016 at 5:28 AM, Evilroddy said:

So can Aeolian magic users have access to spirit magic, pagan divine magic and sorcery spells all at the same time? Or are there boundaries which constrain practioners of the Aeolian rites and way? If Aeolian worship is a hybrid of Brithini aetheism and pagan deism, does it predate the rise of the Rokari sect within Malkionism? How long has the Aeolian rite existed and what are its geographical and 'mythographical' origins? Was it born in the southern Heortlands or imported from abroad and simply fused two local and pre-existing faiths together to arrive at its present-day form?

Enquiring minds (and souls) want to know!

Cheers.

Evilroddy.

And no, I'm not an insidious riddler bent on warping your souls! So stop thinking that right now!

The commoners and nobles have access to spirit magic and rune magic. The priests use sorcery exclusively.

[Richard S.]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

The commoners and nobles have access to spirit magic and rune magic. The priests use sorcery exclusively.

Would Carmanians and other such sorcery/Rune magic mixing cultures also follow this model?

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Would Carmanians and other such sorcery/Rune magic mixing cultures also follow this model?

Apparently even the non-henotheist Rokari follow this model now. They possibly can do so claiming descent from a number of local deities, masking it as ancestor worship.

What the peasant population of Loskalm does when they are not studying to become Men of All I don't know. Siglat made war on a number of non-Malkioni ethnicities trapped inside his bit of Fronela, like the musk-ox folk in the north, and Orlanthi near Oranor. It isn't clear how prevalent Irensavalism is among peasants and outside of Loskalm.

Jonatela apparently reserves Malkioni practices to the non-peasants. It has monastic wizards of a Makanist tradition, extracted from Seshnela by Jonat Big Bear. Bear Orlanthi practices go hand in hand with that.

The Carmanians have always had sorcerers and priests. From the looks of it, even Syranthir Forefront's 10,000 fleeing from the Arimadalla conquest may have included warrior societies paying homage e.g. to the bull god.

Likewise, the Stygians in Ralios (and, once upon a time, in Tanisor) had a continuum of mixes almost from orthodox Malkionism and all the way to almost purely theist ways.

The situation in Umathela is a bit unclear - there appear to be orthodox forms of Malkionism and purely theist backwoods tribes, but there may be remnants of mixes of these, possibly in the form of sorcerer-led theist cults originating from one of the universities there.

In Fonrit, all bets are off.

 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Would Carmanians and other such sorcery/Rune magic mixing cultures also follow this model?

No.

The basic outline is the same (Sorcerors - Sorcery), everybody else lesser magics.  But some societies might have non-wizards using sorcery for various reasons.  The question is what would they use that magic for.  Since the RQG rules have made it clear that Socery is about the Big Spells, the number of non-sorcerors who would use sorcery for heroic or adventuring circumstances is quite small.  So the question is what else they might use it for?

Personal Henosis:  In which a Malkioni uses sorcery to achieve some kind of mental union with the Invisible God.  This might be a Joy spell among the Loskalmi (as well as a Medispection spell to ascertain if you are on the straight and narrow) .  The Sedalpists could also use sorcery for this purpose while the Arkati uses pagan worship for their own henosis.

Craftwork: Another possibility is to use sorcery for Big Works - like erecting a bridge, creating wards or making a ship.  The non-Malkioni would organize themselves into guilds or fraternities and assign their magical workers a specific magical task to carry out.  The spells will usually be cast over a period of weeks or even seasons depending on what is made.  This type of sorcery would be fairly common in Malkioni civilizations.

Protection:  A non-Malkioni might regularly cast a certain spell to stop an certain event from happening.  Most Malkioni would consider using a charm in such circumstances but sorcery can be used if the threat requires constant vigilance.  For example, a Noble might regularly cast a sanity spell to break a family curse of insanity.  Immortality spells would also fall within this class but most such spells require some immoral action.

Crutches:  A non-Malkioni afflicted with some ailment might consider using sorcery to cover a weakness.  This might be strength magic for a weakling or makeup magic for an ugly person.  

The wealthier one is, the more likely one is likely to use tailored sorcery for their own personal circumstances (in other words, a peasant isn't going to know any sorcery but a noble is highly likely to).  

 

 

 

 

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Apparently even the non-henotheist Rokari follow this model now. They possibly can do so claiming descent from a number of local deities, masking it as ancestor worship.

Also Horali use rune and spirit magic, presumably from the guardians of their ancient beast societies.

And I imagine some Rokari cataphracts have found some way to justify the Fireblade spirit magic through memory of Gerlant and his dynasty.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Also Horali use rune and spirit magic, presumably from the guardians of their ancient beast societies.

Another type of ancestors. The early Seshnegi kings included a lot of conquered Pendali into their kingdom, and later on conquered Enerali joined the party. Probably some Serpent Beast Society groups, too.

Not all ancestors need you to be their direct descendant, after all.

 

[Tindalos]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Another type of ancestors. The early Seshnegi kings included a lot of conquered Pendali into their kingdom, and later on conquered Enerali joined the party. Probably some Serpent Beast Society groups, too.

Not all ancestors need you to be their direct descendant, after all.

A good point. Not for nothing is the Lion society based in the city neighbouring Basmol after all.

A lot of the beast societies probably owe their origins to hsunchen and related groups. (Pralori for the Deer Society, Fornao with the Horse Society (especially as most modern "Sesnegi" are of Fornao blood,) I imagine the Snake Society may be connected to Seshna Likita herself given Laraness's guardian, and the Telmori who were defeated by Isarnos and gave ride to Grodlam are also responsible for the Wolf Society. Which just leaves the Bull Society (which may actually be two,) the Mammoth, and the Boar of the known societies.)

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Which just leaves the Bull Society (which may actually be two,) the Mammoth, and the Boar of the known societies.)

The Bull is probably from the Enjoreli as an Army from Fronela invaded in the Dawn Age.  The Boar might be Mraloti.

[Joerg]

Do non-wizard members of the Aeolian zzaburi caste use magic at all? If so, what kind?

[metcalph]

There are no 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do non-wizard members of the Aeolian zzaburi caste use magic at all? If so, what kind?

IMO there are no non-wizard members of the Aeolian Zzaburi Caste.  All members of that are trained as wizards and expected to perform their duties as wizards.  Granted some of them would be quite incompetent as wizards but they will still be expected to perform sorcery (if they don't know any techniques, their magic is doubled in cast).

A better question might be do they learn any other magic in addition to sorcery?

[metcalph]

My brief thoughts on the Aeolian magical social structure (mainly to make them distinguishable from the Carmanians and Ralians).  

They have no priests of the cults beyond the wizard caste - only God-Talkers and Rune Lords.  Those people still learn spirit and rune magics.

Their wizards generally stick to sorcery.  They see their spells are regulating the well-being of the gods, replacing the need for barbarous sacrifices.  They consider sacrifices to be an error that makes the Gods go bad.  

 

[Kloster]

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A better question might be do they learn any other magic in addition to sorcery?

According to Jeff, " The commoners and nobles have access to spirit magic and rune magic. The priests use sorcery exclusively ".

[Joerg]

Guess I need to re-phrase my question.

Quote

Children of the wizard caste are taught from age 6 the prayers and rituals that train their mind to manipulate the Runes. At age 16, those with a minimum INT of 14 select two Runes and one technique in which to specialize and spend the next five years mastering them. At age 21, they are acclaimed as wizards.

What do those with a maximum INT of 13 do? Leave the wizard caste?

Train some more, so they can select a rune or a technique at some higher age? Use a method similar to Dormal's Open Seas common magic ritual that doesn't require mastered runes or spells (but may clog up Free INT)?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Guess I need to re-phrase my question.

What do those with a maximum INT of 13 do? Leave the wizard caste?

Train some more, so they can select a rune or a technique at some higher age? Use a method similar to Dormal's Open Seas common magic ritual that doesn't require mastered runes or spells (but may clog up Free INT)?

Be considered failures to their family. End up getting married and be expected to produce smarter children. Assist their more successful kin in manage family estates, dealing with routine affairs, and acting as clerks. Become merchants or money-lenders. Or go into exile.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Be considered failures to their family.

That goes without saying.

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

End up getting married and be expected to produce smarter children.

Really? That's like taking the least meaty of your bulls, mating it with the most dry of your milk cows and expecting a treasure level calf.

If Gloranthan breeding programs went like that, Uzko mothers would mate with trollkin (other than Neep).

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Assist their more successful kin in manage family estates, dealing with routine affairs, and acting as clerks.

Family estates... this means that zzaburi families have tenant families providing produce directly to their households and not to some organized order that allocates supplies to the various zzaburi households?

Acting as clerks etc. sounds the most reasonable, except that administrative duty is part of the talar definition. But then, the dropouts may become library assistants, performing the necessary crafts. Or become healers, assistant lawspeakers or astrologers, reading out precedents etc.

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Become merchants or money-lenders.

Again, that's what I expect talars do in a Malkioni society.

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Or go into exile.

As apostates? Your average Orlanthi exile usually remains a worshiper of Orlanth, and may find acceptance sufficiently far away from home in the company of other Orlanthi. As an Aeolian exile, you might leave Esvular for Nochet or vice versa, but a failing Zzabur caste person remains a failing zzabur caste person.

 

One way around being a non-asset would be magic which needs a group effort, where not every participant has to be a master of the technique. In such a set-up, these folk could be productive magical assistants.

For instance, participating in enchantments.

 

[soltakss]

On 4/24/2019 at 7:47 PM, Joerg said:

Really? That's like taking the least meaty of your bulls, mating it with the most dry of your milk cows and expecting a treasure level calf.

If Gloranthan breeding programs went like that, Uzko mothers would mate with trollkin (other than Neep).

Everyone gets the same INT roll, no matter their parents.

Sure, you might be able to put something about inheritance into chargen, but it would be patchy at best.

[Joerg]

25 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Everyone gets the same INT roll, no matter their parents.

Does everybody get the same privileged re-rolls, too?

Prestige and achievement of the marriage partner are instrumental qualities sought in arranging marriages. Then what would make marrying your children to a failure an attractive proposition?

Having such under-achievers join monastic orders might be the way to do eugenics.

25 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, you might be able to put something about inheritance into chargen, but it would be patchy at best.

I don't think that raising your kids to take over after Argrath's Lightbringer Quest is really the scope of RQG. This isn't Pendragon, and you'd need five times as many games for each year.

 

There is a problem with having endogamous castes of 600 to 1000 individuals - biologically such populations are reckoned endangered. The sorcerer caste is hit harder than the talar caste because they don't get refreshed by ritual (extramarital) procreation in the pursuit of their cults (unless there are components to Gloranthan sorcery that might require future supplements to be sold in brown bags).

From what I gathered about Malkioni cultural mores, marital fidelity was a lot less important than keeping it in the caste. There was some initial outward marriage to deities of various kinds, producing heroic individuals, and it is possible that supernatural parents might be acceptable to such endogamous castes.

We don't know anything about the permanence of marriages among the Aeolians. For Heortlings, marriage usually means that one marriage partner leaves their old clan and joins a new one, and divorce or non-renewal of a temporary marriage means return to the previous clan for that individual, minus any potential offspring they may have produced.

A clan structure of the Esvulari and how that maps on the caste stratum of the Aeolians (or other Orlanthi-Malkioni cultures) has not been defined in any publication. How can the clan kinship concept transcend the separate ancestry lines of the castes?

There are maybe enough members of the talar and zzabur castes each to form their own triaties of sorts.

 

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Everyone gets the same INT roll, no matter their parents.

Sure, you might be able to put something about inheritance into chargen, but it would be patchy at best.

Now, this could have an effect. But it could also depend on nature vs nurture.

We know that having a high Fire/Sky Rune can affect your intelligence (RQ:G 53.)

We also know that your culture can affect your runic make up, with Grazelanders and Impala Riders having a bonus to their Fire/Sky Rune (RQ:G 45.)

Your homeland is at least influenced by your parents, so if your parents are Grazelanders, you've got a (very, very slight) tendency towards a higher intelligence.

Given the Malkioni interest in lines of descent (what with two of Zzabur's books being entirely about genealogy) it's possible that some sorcerers might find it an interesting source of magic.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Given the Malkioni interest in lines of descent (what with two of Zzabur's books being entirely about genealogy) it's possible that some sorcerers might find it an interesting source of magic.

I think judging from their Blue Skin and the local history, the Zzaburi are more likely to be associated with the Water or Moon runes, with aptitude for magic being worth more than intellect.  Yes, there's a tension between that and the demands of intellect required in mastering sorcery in that their marriage practices means they are likely to produce wizards who are magically good but hopeless with sorcery.   I don't see this as a problem.  

I don't think that Aeolians need to have a large number of wizards to be successful.   They only require one or two great wizards every generation, ten competent ones with the rest being dullards for all anybody knows or cares.  That's manageable in a caste population of 1000.  Their wizards have better things to do than be terrors on the battlefield.