heroquest Heroquest - Fallout

[Ebaninth]

Lets say your Sartarite characters undertake a Heroquest with Sun Worshipers as the antagonists.  In the quest they(Orlanth & some Thunder brothers) travel to Yelms palace to steal an item, and during the process they have to fight 4 palace guards or a Yelmic guard deity (one does not spring to mind). 

Assuming they succeed, they start in Sartar and pop into the gods world to undertake an "Otherworld Heroquest".  Who do they end up fighting/defeating/killing, and what happens in the "This World".  Is it the case that the 4 guards in the four corners of the Sartar Sun Dome are found dead at their posts the next morning?  Do they remember have bad dreams on guard the night before? As the "Otherworld" is before time, someone was pulled into the Otherworld Heroquest and they will eventually die from it?  Some Sundomers (as representatives of the guards in the HQ) somewhere in the past or future die?

If there is a heroquest "Orlanth goes raiding" why don't (when they hear that the Lunars are invading in 1602) all warthanes throughout Sartar and Heortland start undertaking the heroquest to whittle down the attacking army as they move towards the Sartarite muster.

I understand the "This World" heroquest (a good example being the Biturian[Cults of Prax] account with the Sundomers) is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the "Other World" confuses me.

Can you pop into an "Other World" HQ to get away from someone.  Then go nowhere waiting and pop back out once time passes and the threat has passed.

Always the Godlearner...

[Steve]

I'm fascinated by the topic of heroquests, and especially the Summons of Evil and the area of drawing your opponents in (and vice versa - the PCs being drawn into someone else's heroquest) so I'll be very interested in the replies here.

The books (e.g. HQ:G and S:KoH) talk about adversaries/strangers from "this world" being drawn into a heroquest. But it would seem more than a little unfair for them to die in "this world" if they die in the heroquest. I imagine that whilst they are drawn into it (do they disappear from this world, just as the PCs would in an Other World heroquest?), if/when they are killed they will simply pop back out again, unharmed, via the magic of the heroquest.

As for getting away from someone, it takes an awful lot of preparation (and resources) to get an Other World heroquest ready. So I don't see how it could be used just to conveniently disappear from someone.

[Noita]

In my opinion the adversaries are folk who just so happen to be starting their own heroquest (having been drawn into the collaboration mythically/magically).

Eg Sun Domers begin their own ceremonies, crossing over to defend the Sun realm from interlopers and receive defensive magic vs the Storm pantheon and run into the player characters.

Or Temples read the signs, get portents or know that it's Storm season and on the Orlanth Holy day they'd better be prepared and send some heroes to do their stuff. Same in reverse.

Temples would feel the harmonics of those pesky woad wearing cloud huggers  girding their loins etc etc

Edited March 20, 2016 by Iskallor

[jajagappa]

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Lets say your Sartarite characters undertake a Heroquest with Sun Worshipers as the antagonists.  In the quest they(Orlanth & some Thunder brothers) travel to Yelms palace to steal an item, and during the process they have to fight 4 palace guards or a Yelmic guard deity (one does not spring to mind).

So this Heroquest could occur in one of two ways:

1) A "This World" HQ.  Though you are re-enacting a mythic event, your goal is to steal something from, for instance, the Sun Dome Temple such as their Orb of Authority.  You prepare in much the same way, get your ritual artifacts, find a sacred hill on a stormy day to leave from, and follow the prescribed 'steps'.  Maybe you need to get the Scarf of Mist from the river goddess, so you need to go to the Creek before Sunrise when the mists are rising and bargain for that; then you need Raven's Cloak so you go to the Silent Grove and hope to find the Raven spirit there and have a riddling contest to gain the cloak.  And at last you come to the Sun Dome where you must sneak in using those tools, gain the item, and depart.  If you fight temple guards on the way out, and kill them, they die.  If they kill you, you die.  If you gain the item, you have it in your possession, and likely the Sun Dome will try to get it back since it's an important ritual object for them

2) An Otherworld HQ.  You are not just re-enacting the myth, you will be 'in' the myth.  YOU are Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers.  YOU are going into Yelm's actual palace.  The steps are the same, but they take place in the Otherworld, outside of time.  The ceremony and ritual to bring you there are magically charged, and you must prepare sacred objects in advance to hold whatever you intend to steal.  At the conclusion of the ritual you find yourself In Orlanth's Hall or on Orlanth's Hill, etc. in the time of the early Gods War.

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Who do they end up fighting/defeating/killing, and what happens in the "This World".

In the Otherworld quest, you may have to sneak past Gold Gryphon, the doorkeeper; and then walk the golden corridors of the palace, perhaps encountering Ernalda the concubine of the Emperor; and then enter the golden sanctum guarded by the Keepers of the Four Directions.  You fight the Keepers of the Four Directions.  That these may be heroquesters as well may or may not be the case - it may be immaterial to your story.  Let's say you steal the Orb of Authority and slay the Keeper of the North.

Now what happens in This World?  What you've returned with is the ritual object you brought into the quest (say it was a bronze orb) but it is now 'filled' with a magical blessing of some time (perhaps you can Command the Little Suns as a special divine magic).  This relic might be used in subsequent rituals to gain the loyalty of Elmal or even Yelmalio.  Or when Yelmalions come onto your lands, your Chief can invoke its power to command them to depart (and it has a high chance of success).

That you mythically killed the Keeper of the North in the ritual does not mean that anyone in This World died.  If a Yelmalion heroquester was 'pulled into' the ritual, he may have been 'knocked out' of his quest, and failed.  He may be magically weakened, perhaps even losing an important ability/magic (perhaps his Watchful Eyes divine magic).  But there may be other This World ramifications.  That the Keeper of the North mythically died, may mean that the powers of Order are no longer guarding the northern border of your clan lands.  Maybe chaos is now magically drawn to your clan, always attacking from the north.

It's really up to you to determine what level of consequence a given myth has.  The more powerful your heroes, though, the greater the consequence is likely to be as they increasingly 'impact' the mythic landscape.

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Can you pop into an "Other World" HQ to get away from someone.  Then go nowhere waiting and pop back out once time passes and the threat has passed.

No.  It's not another world like our real world concept of Faerie.  It's a mythic landscape that requires ritual and ceremony to reach and does not directly correspond to the real world in that way.  It's a ritual reenactment of the myths. 

And in 1602 if your heroes went heroquesting on an Orlanth Goes Raiding myth, likely what they encounter is not the Palace of the Emperor, but the Advance of the Devil with his horde of chaos.  And encountering chaos anywhere, even in myth, is NOT GOOD.  You may well not return to the real world in that case.

[Steve]

I was just scanning through Arcane Lore, and there's some interesting stuff on this in there, including the mention of being drawn into someone else's heroquest "by accident".

 

[soltakss]

All in my opinion, of course ...

 

4 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

Lets say your Sartarite characters undertake a Heroquest with Sun Worshipers as the antagonists.  In the quest they(Orlanth & some Thunder brothers) travel to Yelms palace to steal an item, and during the process they have to fight 4 palace guards or a Yelmic guard deity (one does not spring to mind). 

Assuming they succeed, they start in Sartar and pop into the gods world to undertake an "Otherworld Heroquest".  Who do they end up fighting/defeating/killing, and what happens in the "This World".  Is it the case that the 4 guards in the four corners of the Sartar Sun Dome are found dead at their posts the next morning?  Do they remember have bad dreams on guard the night before? As the "Otherworld" is before time, someone was pulled into the Otherworld Heroquest and they will eventually die from it?  Some Sundomers (as representatives of the guards in the HQ) somewhere in the past or future die?

 

In my Glorantha, an OtherWorld HeroQuest means that you go to the place in Myth to the place in question. So, you go into the Sky, into hell, onto the Red Moon, into Cragspider's Castle and so on.

 

So, if your Orlanthi are going on an Otherworld HeroQuest then they physically go to raid Yelm's Palace and bring back something from that fantastic place. The guards met are angels and Yelmic Heroes. Killing those mean that they die permanently.

If, however, your Orlanthi perform the HeroQuest in this world, they might raid the local Sun Dome Temple or a Yelmic mansion. In this case, the guards met might be Yelmalian Temple Guards or part of a Solar Count's bodyguard. I think this is the kind of thing you are looking for.

In my HeroQuests, we overlay the HeroQuest in the real world, to get the benefits of the HeroQuests against real-world opponents. I think many HeroQuests are like this.

The opponents on the HeroQuest are real opponents. Sometimes they are other HeroQuestors, drawn into the HeroQuest, sometimes they are just whoever is available at the time. So, in your example, you might be raiding the local Count's Mansion to get the Sun Crown that contains a clipping of Yelm's fingernail, so the guards you face will be the Count's guards. It may even be that a rival HeroQuestor is defending the Count, senses that something is happening and joins the HeroQuest as one of the guards.

What I don't think happens is that some random Sundomers die because of the HeroQuest, as you fight some real opponents.

 

4 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

If there is a heroquest "Orlanth goes raiding" why don't (when they hear that the Lunars are invading in 1602) all warthanes throughout Sartar and Heortland start undertaking the heroquest to whittle down the attacking army as they move towards the Sartarite muster.

 

Well, many of the tribes supported the Lunars, many ere neutral or didn't care and many fought the other tribes because of past conflicts. When the Lunars invaded, they were not faced by a united Sartar.

However, I think some of the Thanes performed HeroQuests. There is an example where Minyarth Purple attempts a Magic Road HeroQuest from Cragspider's castle to get south in a day, but he fails to start the HeroQuest so many times that CragSpider herself comes down to him and advises that this isn't what the Gods want. I assume that some of the Orlanthi performed some HeroQuests against the Lunars. The children of the Royal Household formed the Household of Death and took on terrbile geases to fight the Lunars, this was clearly a HeroQuest. 

 

4 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

I understand the "This World" heroquest (a good example being the Biturian[Cults of Prax] account with the Sundomers) is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the "Other World" confuses me.

 

Biturian's Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest is one where the HeroQuestor needed some opponents so rounded some up. However there are many more types of "This World" HeroQuests:

My HeroQuest - This is where I perform a HeroQuest, probably aided by the other PCs in my game.

Accidental HeroQuest - This is where the Pcs are brought into a HeroQuest without any planning. Perhaps they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Targeted HeroQuest - This is where someone directs a HeroQuest at the PCs

Sensed HeroQuest - This is where the Pcs sense that a heroQuest is happening and choose to join it.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

Can you pop into an "Other World" HQ to get away from someone.  Then go nowhere waiting and pop back out once time passes and the threat has passed.

 

Frog Woman has a Magic road HeroQuest where her cultists can jump to another place, they disappear and end of at the destination a day later, there is no reason why her cultists cannot jump to the same place, effectively disappearing and reappearing a day later.

As a general point, you don't just go to the otherworld unless you have some kind of way to get there, so I would think it was difficult. However, if you have a heroQuest that takes you to a certain place then you could go there, wait and return.

 

 

 

[Charles VA]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

Frog Woman has a Magic road HeroQuest where her cultists can jump to another place, they disappear and end of at the destination a day later, there is no reason why her cultists cannot jump to the same place, effectively disappearing and reappearing a day later.

Frog Woman and River Horse can both do this. It stands to reason that any travel/movement based spirits/cults would have something similar, if not the one day leap.whether it be Sunset Leap, Ride River Horse or Leap. If performed at the right place,time or circumstances I don't see why you couldn't use this to traverse the veil and enter the Otherside. There's even some indication that Ride River Horse and Sunset Leap (specifically) can be attuned to the Otherside equivalents of mundane locations.

 

YGWV

Edited March 20, 2016 by charlesvajr

[David Scott]

Because Heroquests happen outside of time, the adversaries don't have come from the same time. They can come from any time, but will generally come from a similar time. Adversaries don't always appear as themselves, so it can be hard to tell who they are. The adversaries that you mention in Yelm's temple are likely fixed denizens who are always there (scenery), not people drawn in - unless of course there's part of a quest where you go and guard the temple). I rule that if it's a dynamic encounter, it can be a drawn in adversary, otherwise they are fixed and part of the scenery. In the real world they would be the painted guards on the temple wall. 

[Joerg]

@David Scott - for all practical measures, it doesn't matter if your opponents are strongly temporary different or genuine mythical entities.

This makes me wonder, though, whether you are going to (en)counter God Learner intrusions even when questing starting from the Third Age. If the answer is yes, we are going to need some mechanical write-up for God Learner encounters in the hero planes.

Encountering Arkati probably is a standard element of otherworldly endeavors. Mostly you wouldn't realize that they were there for a purpose other than scenic extras. However, if you are going to warp the myths in a bad way, beware of those guys.

(Which makes me wonder - would those Arkati be in any way similar to the Kitori tax takers when provoked?)

[Ebaninth]

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

This makes me wonder, though, whether you are going to (en)counter God Learner intrusions even when questing starting from the Third Age. If the answer is yes, we are going to need some mechanical write-up for God Learner encounters in the hero planes.

Well the Heroplane is without time, so godlearners are going to be "relatively" common in "easy' Heroquests.  Un-less the Closing was a re-set to install parameters button - with some minor code changes.  Then most GL would be gone but it would still leave a chance to encounter 1st Age Arkati, but I don't think they farmed HQ's like the GL's.

[Ebaninth]

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

My HeroQuest - This is where I perform a HeroQuest, probably aided by the other PCs in my game.

Accidental HeroQuest - This is where the Pcs are brought into a HeroQuest without any planning. Perhaps they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Targeted HeroQuest - This is where someone directs a HeroQuest at the PCs

Sensed HeroQuest - This is where the Pcs sense that a heroQuest is happening and choose to join it.

 

I still have problems with this "sensed" HQ where creatures can be "pulled in" to a Otherworld HQ.  Assuming it is not a This World HQ, then I could see cults putting up there best players (or at least finding a way to) during times of high risk of Other World HQ's against them - to aid with defense. MOB's Sun County has those four 30-40 POW Spirits (North, South East & West) I presume they are the protectors against HQ's whilst a Sartar Clan would have its Wyter.  When a clan comes under threat would its Rune levels 'share' guard duty with Wyters and such to help?  As it is a Other World, they cannot get killed only weakened.

In IT you get those denial of service attacks, something akin to a HQ attack where you get your best people working on the problem.

For the 200 years of Hofstaring Treeleaper, was his clan free of Chaos attacks as he 'aided' its mythological defense.

Esrolia's Building Wall Battle was probably undertaken on an earth cult High Holy Day, when the Lunars were at a low wane.  

In the case of knowing the antagonist you would help your wyter on the High Holy days of the opponent surely.  

Blue Moon trolls keep there cults high holy days a secret to prevent enemies (or targets) from guessing when something might or might not happen.

 

In the case of "This World HW" you don't get pulled in you would seem to just walk into "trouble" ie Bituarians.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Ebaninth said:

Esrolia's Building Wall Battle was probably undertaken on an earth cult High Holy Day, when the Lunars were at a low wane. 

I don't think that Belintar was able to choose the day of the battle that freely, after all the Lunar army was pushing towards Esrolia, and placing the wall to make it a useful barrier against the Lunar advance (not easily evaded) means that he had to choose the location rather than the time of the battle.

Belintar may have had the seeds of the wall prepared beforehand, and his deployment of troops will probably have made less tactical sense initially.

If this was a heroquest, it wasn't one well known beforehand. As I said in an earlier thread, the Mostali are likely to use wall raising in battles, and they used such magic to raise the eastern wall of Boldhome, sealing in the cul-de-sac valley. Not in the middle of a battle, though. I still think that Belintar inherited that magic for his battle.

[soltakss]

I tend to make a distinction between GodTime HeroQuests and Otherworld HeroQuests.

God Time HeroQuests are where you go to the God Time/God Plane and make changes to the Myths. These are what Heroes do to make themselves Heroes and Gods do to make themselves Gods. Effectively, they imprint themselves on the God Plane, shaping it to have a place for them and a myth their cultists can follow.

Otherworld HeroQuests are where you go into places that are not really of this world, magical places, sometimes places that no longer exist. You then HeroQuest in these places and interact with the denizens of those places. So, you might go to the Palace of Black Glass, which no longer exists. What you do will not make a difference to the original myths, but you can access the place as a place of power. 

 

2 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

 

I still have problems with this "sensed" HQ where creatures can be "pulled in" to a Otherworld HQ.  Assuming it is not a This World HQ, then I could see cults putting up there best players (or at least finding a way to) during times of high risk of Other World HQ's against them - to aid with defense. MOB's Sun County has those four 30-40 POW Spirits (North, South East & West) I presume they are the protectors against HQ's whilst a Sartar Clan would have its Wyter.  When a clan comes under threat would its Rune levels 'share' guard duty with Wyters and such to help?  As it is a Other World, they cannot get killed only weakened.

 

If you are not talking a "This World" HeroQuest, then someone is making a direct attack on your clan's wyter, its mythic basis. In this case, the priests, lords and HeroQuestors of the clan will know that something is happening and will be sucked into the HeroQuest as opponents.

I have never been of the opinion that you cannot be killed on a HeroQuest. I am quite happy with people being killed on a HeroQuest in the same way they can be killed normally. This idea of bouncing out of the HeroQuest when you are killed is a namby=pamby way of doing things, in my opinion, although it has its place in Dream Quests and the like.

 

If someone HeroQuested against Zorak Zoran to take the fire powers away from Amanstan then I would expect Zorak Zorani HeroQuestors to be alerted to it and to HeroQuest against the attempt. 

 

 

In IT you get those denial of service attacks, something akin to a HQ attack where you get your best people working on the problem.

For the 200 years of Hofstaring Treeleaper, was his clan free of Chaos attacks as he 'aided' its mythological defense.

Esrolia's Building Wall Battle was probably undertaken on an earth cult High Holy Day, when the Lunars were at a low wane.  

In the case of knowing the antagonist you would help your wyter on the High Holy days of the opponent surely.  

Blue Moon trolls keep there cults high holy days a secret to prevent enemies (or targets) from guessing when something might or might not happen.

 

In the case of "This World HW" you don't get pulled in you would seem to just walk into "trouble" ie Bituarians.

 

Sure, people are very wary on holy days as other HeroQuestors use these days for attacks. Biturian was involved in a HeroQuest when a bunch of trolls raided an Earth Holy Day ceremony, for example.

On Holy Days, your clan is prepared for attacks as everyone gathers in the temple. On Holy Days of enemy cults, your clan is probably prepared for an attack as well.

The danger is on other days, not necessarily holy days but days with special meaning. The anniversary of a Hero's first heroQuest or the anniversary of another clan's raid on your clan, for example.

The problem that we have is that people interpret HeroQuesting in different ways. The way I do it is internally consistent but is probably different to the way that someone else does it. Both versions might work well but behave differently.

 

 

 

[Steve]

According to HeroQuest: Glorantha, "a heroquest is simply a type of story that explores Gloranthan mythology". In this traditional sense of what a heroquest is, that means you don't just do some sort of dimension-jumping thing where you attack someone/something back in the regular world. You go on the heroquest to bring back some sort of benefit, usually for your community, but it could be a specific item (based on some special item that has been prepared for you to take on the quest, and to bring back in a different form).

I don't really see how references to "attacks", in terms of a heroquest, make sense.. You can't go and "attack" another clan as part of your heroquest, although you could go on a heroquest that involves a myth that is something to do with that clan, though that still wouldn't mean you "attack" them. In a This World heroquest, you're still acting out part of your myth, not just going on a random raid.

The thing about others being pulled into a heroquest against their will - you can't "choose" who those people are going to be, particularly as you normally have no idea what your enemies are doing heroquest-wise. If you did find out, perhaps someone spied their long-running preparations, then the only thing you can do is bear in mind that the "best" matches for opposition in that heroquest may be pulled into it, which *might* be some of your nominated people. But it's a very long shot in my view, those opponents really could come from any time and place.

Of course, YGWV, so you may not choose to play it like this ...

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Steve

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Otherworld HeroQuests are where you go into places that are not really of this world, magical places, sometimes places that no longer exist. You then HeroQuest in these places and interact with the denizens of those places. So, you might go to the Palace of Black Glass, which no longer exists. What you do will not make a difference to the original myths, but you can access the place as a place of power. 

I partially agree with this.  There are places in Glorantha where the division between mundane and Otherworld/GodsTime is weak.  If you attempt to climb Mount Kerofin, you push towards the mythic where you could encounter the Mountain Mother herself.  Or if you sail down Magasta's Pool to the Underworld.  Or climb the ladder to the Sky World.  Or leap onto the Moon.  Or travel to the distant Gates of Dawn or Dusk where the sun rises or sets each day.  These exist, but only heroes can truly might and overcome the guardians there (and if you die doing so, you die and your soul heads off to the Underworld).

But you cannot go to the Palace of Black Glass in this world as it no longer exists there.  You must enter myth to reach it (since it was built in the God Time).  But you could travel to the Tarpit where it once stood, and you may find it easier to enter the land of myth from there.  Or you may use the Tarpit as a way to access the Underworld (which exists in both Godtime and real time and is one of those Otherworlds.

Similarly you cannot go back to the Founding of Pavis before it became the Big Rubble - there is no time travel.  But you could sail into the Puzzle Canal in the Big Rubble on the right day and find yourself sailing on the River Styx in the Underworld as there is some occasional connection or gateway to the realm of myth there.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I don't really see how references to "attacks", in terms of a heroquest, make sense.. You can't go and "attack" another clan as part of your heroquest, although you could go on a heroquest that involves a myth that is something to do with that clan, though that still wouldn't mean you "attack" them. In a This World heroquest, you're still acting out part of your myth, not just going on a random raid.

You could say that you want to raid the Greydogs in order to steal the power of Minlister (the brewer) from them.  This has mythic overtones, and you can set it up as a This World Heroquest where the goal is that you have the magic power that they currently have (maybe it is part of the Greydog clan wyter).  But you need to put it into the context of an existing myth and some will work better than others.  The mythic hero Vingkot went on many raids, including against Alkoth (which is part of the Underworld and Sky World), but using those as a basis won't do much good in this case - the foes and the stations of the quest will be 'wrong' and who knows what may happen to the raid.  But Minlister uses a huge magical cauldron named Karni that was taken from the water gods by Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers.  You need to follow this quest if you want to steal the Greydog's magical cauldron and its powers for yourself.  Therefore, you have to cast the Greydogs as the 'Water Gods' in the quest in order to be successful (think of it as staging a big interactive 'play' where you are casting the parts but need to have the 'right' people in the 'right' roles).  The easiest 'water god' to cast the Greydogs as is Heler before he joined the Storm Tribe.  To do this, you likely need to be at some place (perhaps beside the Sword River or the Creek) and you 'summon' your 'enemy' (the Water Gods) in a specific ritual that brings both Heler's rain clouds and the Greydog warriors (they may feel a magical 'pull' in this case, or their wyter feels a threat and orders them to defend their land, etc.).  If you defeat the Greydogs ('water gods'), then you can raid their camp and find their magical cauldron and take it for your own.

So as Steve notes, this is not a 'random raid', but a very prescribed raid based on an ancient storyline that needs the 'right' acts, characters, and components to succeed well (otherwise you may just end up with someone's wineskin sack) or you are driven off (and now you have some vulnerability to the 'water gods'). 

[soltakss]

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Similarly you cannot go back to the Founding of Pavis before it became the Big Rubble - there is no time travel.  But you could sail into the Puzzle Canal in the Big Rubble on the right day and find yourself sailing on the River Styx in the Underworld as there is some occasional connection or gateway to the realm of myth there.

However, if you go on a GodTime HeroQuest to the Founding of Pavis then you can go to the mythic point, as the Founding of Pavis is a Mythic Event. Changes you make are only reflected in Glorantha after that point, so you couldn't change history, but you could change the nature of Pavis itself.

That is what Gbaji did to the trolls - he HeroQuested in time but created a Mythic Event in GodTime. When trolls try to stop him, they travel to the Mythic Event in GodTime, or use that Mythic Event to overlay on normal time. 

[soltakss]

 

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I don't really see how references to "attacks", in terms of a heroquest, make sense.. You can't go and "attack" another clan as part of your heroquest, although you could go on a heroquest that involves a myth that is something to do with that clan, though that still wouldn't mean you "attack" them. In a This World heroquest, you're still acting out part of your myth, not just going on a random raid.

 

Such attacks happen all the time.

An Orlanthi performing the Scarf of Mist HeroQuest might go into a nearby lake, find a water nymph and force her to become his wife/concubine. He is effectively carrying out an attack on the Water Tribe in the same way that Orlanth did. The fact that the water tribe is a family of nymphs doesn't matter. 

The same Orlanthi could perform the Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest against a troll clan and steal some magical sandals from the High Priestess. This mimics Orlanth stealing from Kyger Litor and substitutes the troll clan priestess for Kyger Litor.

Another HeroQuestor could then use the Scarf of Mist HeroQuest to steal the first Orlanthi's wife away as he would be targeting her as a member of the Water Tribe.

 

1 hour ago, Steve said:

The thing about others being pulled into a heroquest against their will - you can't "choose" who those people are going to be, particularly as you normally have no idea what your enemies are doing heroquest-wise. If you did find out, perhaps someone spied their long-running preparations, then the only thing you can do is bear in mind that the "best" matches for opposition in that heroquest may be pulled into it, which *might* be some of your nominated people. But it's a very long shot in my view, those opponents really could come from any time and place.

 

If I perform the Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest against the Sazdorf Clan High Priestess by sneaking into the Sazdorf Caverns and stealing her magical sandals then I am pretty sure that the participants are going to be Sazdorf Clan members. I have chosen the HeroQuest, the time, the place and the targets.

However, if the guards turn out to be troll Humakti instead of Zorak Zorani then I might be surprised and might have to deal with them differently. If the guards include a visiting human Sword of Humakt then that would fit the Sazdorf Clan mythically but might cause my HeroQuest to fail as I don;t have anything useful against Humakti.

 

[jajagappa]

40 minutes ago, soltakss said:

However, if you go on a GodTime HeroQuest to the Founding of Pavis then you can go to the mythic point, as the Founding of Pavis is a Mythic Event. Changes you make are only reflected in Glorantha after that point, so you couldn't change history, but you could change the nature of Pavis itself.

That is what Gbaji did to the trolls - he HeroQuested in time but created a Mythic Event in GodTime. When trolls try to stop him, they travel to the Mythic Event in GodTime, or use that Mythic Event to overlay on normal time.

Since Pavis was founded in the 2nd Age, you cannot go to the Godtime Founding of Pavis - there was not one.  What you could do is to figure out what rituals Pavis followed to build his city. Perhaps there was the Trading Blanket of Issaries in Genert's Garden where Issaries shows Genert and Seolinthor how to exchange items.  That you could reach.  But not the Founding of Pavis.

As for Gbaji, when the gods intervened in the mundane plane at the Battle of Night and Day, the Compromise broke and the entire battle/event was in the Godtime at that point.  But ritually it can be thought of as the Sun's invasion of the Underworld and the power of the sun to harm the Hell Mother, and that is where the trolls quest to.

[Tindalos]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Since Pavis was founded in the 2nd Age, you cannot go to the Godtime Founding of Pavis - there was not one.  What you could do is to figure out what rituals Pavis followed to build his city. Perhaps there was the Trading Blanket of Issaries in Genert's Garden where Issaries shows Genert and Seolinthor how to exchange items.  That you could reach.  But not the Founding of Pavis.

I'm not sure this is the case. We know post-dawn events can be recreated through heroquesting (see The Quest of Eringulf Vanak Spear). It seems entirely possible that the Founding of Pavis could be heroquested in much the same way.

 

Of course, that may be the God Learner in me perceiving the Heroplane as discrete mythological events linked in non-standard ways, describing mythical, historical, and impossible occurrences. The myths are maps between these events from one to another, and it may be that historic events when recorded as myth can plot a course through nodes in unexpected ways. Pavis exists unbuilt, built, and ruined within the heroplanes, it's just unreachable in any of those forms without the right myth.

On the gripping hand, it may be that this is simply because Pavis' city was a manifestation of the ideal city of the Green Age. As part of his plan to recreate the age, he built his city to be the first city. Is the city you visit in a quest Pavis? This ideal-city? Is there a meaningful difference?

Hard to say.

[Yaldabaoth]

IMG:

In a "This World" Heroquest, you are dragging the Hero Plane to mundane Glorantha. "I'm Orlanth at the Plundering of Zanibulus." Depending on your power, preparation, etc., things in mundane Glorantha start taking on attributes of things in the Heroquest. Your buddies become more like Thunder Brothers. The stream between your clan's land and the enemy's estate becomes more like the Wet Wall. Your enemies become more like the Cross Brothers, whether they realize it or not. You have a better chance of success if your enemies are already like the Cross Brothers, such as being able to chuck things (such as crosses) at people with great strength or prone to bickering or whatever. Synchronicity is common in Glorantha, and your enemies may have preemptively decided that they were "The Shining Legion at the Refusal of the Strange God Losers".  Then it's a fight to see whose vision holds sway. Assuming that your enemies are magically impotent chumps, you will control the Heroquest, and all parties will fall into their roles in the myth. Your team will be sneaky and clever and will leap over the stream, and get the people representing the Cross Brothers to fight amongst themselves, and THEN you'll make off with Gryphon Necklace. Well, you're not going to get the mythological Gryphon Necklace, you're going to get something in mundane Glorantha that takes the place in the story, such as whatever single item of fine loot that you know your enemies have. When the Heroquest is over, it's done, the benefits are whatever the effects are of what you did now that the ritual is over. Synopsis: It's like a massive & extended Identity Challenge. It's a process of mythological identification that eases tasks in the mundane world by magically overlaying Hero Plane myths over mundane acts. 

In an "Other World" Heroquest, you are thrusting yourself from mundane Glorantha into the Hero Plane. "I'm Orlanth at the Plundering of Zanibulus." You fully take the role of Orlanth in the myth. You don't leap the stream by your tula, because you are really at the Wet Wall, and it roars it's defiance at you. You breeze over its thrashing and anger (if your Air magic is strong enough!), and the Thunder Brothers following you get into a low Goose V, ready to blow to Zanibulus. A massive construction of wood whizzes past your head and crushes Manli. His breath was knocked out of him under the gargantuan cross, but the rest of you all land safely and scatter into the Kitten Scurry before anyone else takes significant damage (if your Motion magic is powerful!). On a breeze, you hear the bickering of the Cross Brothers, each wanting the next throw. You use your Scarf of Mist (You have a Scarf of Mist or Illusion magics, RIGHT?) and witness two massive, squat mountains of flesh arguing with each other on the palace walls. With the guile of the King of the Gods, you convince the Cross Brothers that the best way to determine who is stronger (and thus best suited to throwing their crosses at you) is for each of them to hit each other as hard as possible with a cross at the same time (you are persuasive, yes?). After this show of stupidity, your band waltz into Zanibulus, fight some minor guards, and loot the place. You choose the Gryphon Necklace as your prize, and return to your hall. ...And here you can end the Heroquest. You return to mundane Glorantha with an honest-to-goodness Gryphon Necklace. For a while, at least, until its mythic resonance fades, or its magic manifests as a weaker version of the real thing. Good job!

But wait! In the myth, Orlanth took this prize as a gift to his faithful thane, Elmal. Seeing Elmal being so generously gifted made the rest of the Thunder Brothers proud to have Orlanth as their king. If you keep the Gryphon Necklace for yourself, the effects could wear off really fast, as its not being used as it "should be". Or perhaps it causes your band of adventurers to subtly see you as greedy, or unworthy of their allegiance. Or maybe it will make your friend fail at an important power that they otherwise use reliably, as if it is missing. Then again, maybe gifting away the Gryphon Necklace will forge bonds of appreciation and service, and cause the Necklace to be more efficacious for a longer period of time. Maybe it (and your friend) will save everyone at an important moment, just like the original. Synopsis: It's like a magical Japanese game show obstacle course, where you can win a piece of the Hero Plane to smuggle back to mundane Glorantha, either in an identity, or in an item, or in some sort of magical understanding. The mythic journey is a process which produces the end result: heroquesters experience the myth to achieve some benefit caused by the mythic interactions.

[Steve]

14 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

Such attacks happen all the time.

An Orlanthi performing the Scarf of Mist HeroQuest might go into a nearby lake, find a water nymph and force her to become his wife/concubine. He is effectively carrying out an attack on the Water Tribe in the same way that Orlanth did. The fact that the water tribe is a family of nymphs doesn't matter. 

The same Orlanthi could perform the Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest against a troll clan and steal some magical sandals from the High Priestess. This mimics Orlanth stealing from Kyger Litor and substitutes the troll clan priestess for Kyger Litor.

Another HeroQuestor could then use the Scarf of Mist HeroQuest to steal the first Orlanthi's wife away as he would be targeting her as a member of the Water Tribe.

 

 

If I perform the Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest against the Sazdorf Clan High Priestess by sneaking into the Sazdorf Caverns and stealing her magical sandals then I am pretty sure that the participants are going to be Sazdorf Clan members. I have chosen the HeroQuest, the time, the place and the targets.

However, if the guards turn out to be troll Humakti instead of Zorak Zorani then I might be surprised and might have to deal with them differently. If the guards include a visiting human Sword of Humakt then that would fit the Sazdorf Clan mythically but might cause my HeroQuest to fail as I don;t have anything useful against Humakti.

 

I dunno, this is contrary to how I understand a This World heroquest working. I totally respect that YGWV, and I also realise that for a long time there was no published information about how heroquests are supposed to work. But I have a lot of problems with the above approach.

Most importantly IMHO, a heroquest is supposed to have a mythical background and you're reacting parts of the myth in the mundane world if it's a Real World heroquest, attempting to bring back a benefit for your community from that heroquest. But the approach above seems the other way around, it seems like trying to do something specific in the mundane world, and then trying to force a myth onto it - e.g. if you want to steal something in the real world, then you find a myth where your/a god steals something, and you declare that this is the heroquest you're doing. It seems like the wrong way around to me, you're deciding what you want in the mundane world and then shoving a myth on top (and I don't really get why if you want to steal something, you don't just hatch a plan to steal it rather than making it a heroquest).

I also see a number of problems with doing a raid in this way. Firstly, it's made clear in HQ:G and S:KoH that there will be a suprise or two along the way. The stations may not be what the players were expecting. So this is surely going to throw a spanner in the works if the  players were planning this all out in real world terms. S:KoH says "Locations that are not under the full control of the participants increase the risk of an unpredictable surprise that could threaten the success of the quest and the lives of the questers." 

The ideas that you mention make it sound like the players have full control over what sort of stuff goes on in this Real World heroquest. I can't find the source right now, but in one of the books there's a description of how a hero in RWH who is interacting with a river spirit/god may appear to mundane world inhabitants that he's just thrashing around doing strange things, so surely the players run a very high risk of being vulnerable - e.g. in their planned raid then who's to say that as they were hoping to sneak up on their opponent's hideout, they don't have some sort of unplanned encounter that causes them to make a load of noise and draw a lot of attention to themselves, which they don't have any control over, and in the mundane world their opponents can attack the party while they're vulnerable.

I just don't buy the whole idea of getting a RWH to neatly match to something you want to do in the real world, without very great dangers and unplanned things happening. It sounds very God Learner-ish to have it all mapped out. I may be missing something, of course. And as I said at the start, of course I accept that YGWV.

 

[Noita]

15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

You could say that you want to raid the Greydogs in order to steal the power of Minlister (the brewer) from them.  This has mythic overtones, and you can set it up as a This World Heroquest where the goal is that you have the magic power that they currently have (maybe it is part of the Greydog clan wyter).  But you need to put it into the context of an existing myth and some will work better than others.  The mythic hero Vingkot went on many raids, including against Alkoth (which is part of the Underworld and Sky World), but using those as a basis won't do much good in this case - the foes and the stations of the quest will be 'wrong' and who knows what may happen to the raid.  But Minlister uses a huge magical cauldron named Karni that was taken from the water gods by Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers.  You need to follow this quest if you want to steal the Greydog's magical cauldron and its powers for yourself.  Therefore, you have to cast the Greydogs as the 'Water Gods' in the quest in order to be successful (think of it as staging a big interactive 'play' where you are casting the parts but need to have the 'right' people in the 'right' roles).  The easiest 'water god' to cast the Greydogs as is Heler before he joined the Storm Tribe.  To do this, you likely need to be at some place (perhaps beside the Sword River or the Creek) and you 'summon' your 'enemy' (the Water Gods) in a specific ritual that brings both Heler's rain clouds and the Greydog warriors (they may feel a magical 'pull' in this case, or their wyter feels a threat and orders them to defend their land, etc.).  If you defeat the Greydogs ('water gods'), then you can raid their camp and find their magical cauldron and take it for your own.

So as Steve notes, this is not a 'random raid', but a very prescribed raid based on an ancient storyline that needs the 'right' acts, characters, and components to succeed well (otherwise you may just end up with someone's wineskin sack) or you are driven off (and now you have some vulnerability to the 'water gods'). 

These are the types of heroquests my players start all the time, linking their actions and enemies/obstacles to mythical events, gaining boons to their actions and hopefully attaining their objective. Keeps them connected to their gods and to the land they travel in. Certainly enriches the surrounding as landmarks suddenly become important in the story, both in the past and the present.

[soltakss]

Everyone's experience of HeroQuesting varies.

 

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I dunno, this is contrary to how I understand a This World heroquest working. I totally respect that YGWV, and I also realise that for a long time there was no published information about how heroquests are supposed to work. But I have a lot of problems with the above approach.

Most importantly IMHO, a heroquest is supposed to have a mythical background and you're reacting parts of the myth in the mundane world if it's a Real World heroquest, attempting to bring back a benefit for your community from that heroquest. But the approach above seems the other way around, it seems like trying to do something specific in the mundane world, and then trying to force a myth onto it - e.g. if you want to steal something in the real world, then you find a myth where your/a god steals something, and you declare that this is the heroquest you're doing. It seems like the wrong way around to me, you're deciding what you want in the mundane world and then shoving a myth on top (and I don't really get why if you want to steal something, you don't just hatch a plan to steal it rather than making it a heroquest).

 

The Waha Quest in Different Worlds works exactly in this way. The PCs perform a HeroQuest to rescue some herd beasts. They can use the HeroQuest to rescue herd beasts taken by another clan.

Whoever said that HeroQuests are random events?

HeroQuestors don't randomly stumble upon HeroQuests, in fact they normally set off on HeroQuests do achieve certain goals.

 

The Magical Weapons HeroQuests of Orlanth generally involve stealing things. You could get a magical weapon out of the HeroQuest or you can steal a magic item owned by an NPC. The actual results depend on how the HeroQuest was done, what was invested in the HeroQuest and what happened on the HeroQuest.

 

If you want to steal a wife from another tribe or need a magical weapon, there are other ways of doing this apart from HeroQuesting. However, HeroQuesting can be used, especially if there is a HeroQuest that your deity performed that can be used.

 

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I also see a number of problems with doing a raid in this way. Firstly, it's made clear in HQ:G and S:KoH that there will be a suprise or two along the way. The stations may not be what the players were expecting. So this is surely going to throw a spanner in the works if the  players were planning this all out in real world terms. S:KoH says "Locations that are not under the full control of the participants increase the risk of an unpredictable surprise that could threaten the success of the quest and the lives of the questers." 

 

Sure, there can be surprises.

You might expect a couple of Sun Domer guards and actually get a Sun Lord with all his retinue. Instead of Zorak Zorani guards in Sazdorf you might get Humakti guards. You might expect a station where Orlanth meets Gore and Gash, but instead get ambushed by a group of Zorak Zorani led by a Death Lord enemy.

 

1 hour ago, Steve said:

The ideas that you mention make it sound like the players have full control over what sort of stuff goes on in this Real World heroquest. I can't find the source right now, but in one of the books there's a description of how a hero in RWH who is interacting with a river spirit/god may appear to mundane world inhabitants that he's just thrashing around doing strange things, so surely the players run a very high risk of being vulnerable - e.g. in their planned raid then who's to say that as they were hoping to sneak up on their opponent's hideout, they don't have some sort of unplanned encounter that causes them to make a load of noise and draw a lot of attention to themselves, which they don't have any control over, and in the mundane world their opponents can attack the party while they're vulnerable.

 

Of course that can happen.

However, PCs can set the HeroQuest up in such a way as to probably stack the odds in their favour. If Orlanth meets a troll, then get a friend of the PCs to play the troll on the HeroQuest. If Orlanth raids Yelm's Halls then get the guards drunk before the HeroQuest.

 

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I just don't buy the whole idea of getting a RWH to neatly match to something you want to do in the real world, without very great dangers and unplanned things happening. It sounds very God Learner-ish to have it all mapped out. I may be missing something, of course. And as I said at the start, of course I accept that YGWV.

 

HeroQuests are dangerous and different things can happen.

One of the good things about HeroQuests, from a gaming point of view, is that the consequences of the HeroQuest can have a very big part to play in the campaign. Fallout of HeroQuests can drive scenarios for many sessions.

 

[Steve]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Everyone's experience of HeroQuesting varies.

...

The Waha Quest in Different Worlds works exactly in this way. The PCs perform a HeroQuest to rescue some herd beasts. They can use the HeroQuest to rescue herd beasts taken by another clan.

I totally agree and respect the fact that everyone may implement heroquests in different ways. What I'm trying to get at is the way that they're intended to be run, from what's said in the likes of HQ:G and S:KoH.

The Waha quest is also in Arcane Lore. I might have missed something, but I can't see anything in it that says the quest is intended to be used to rescue herd beasts taken by someone else. For example, how does the one-way wall from the myth fit into the mundane world? Sure, I can see that you could choose to play it in that way. But I still think it's going to be extremely difficult to find a suitable myth to fit any particular situation the PCs find themself in.

Quote

However, PCs can set the HeroQuest up in such a way as to probably stack the odds in their favour. If Orlanth meets a troll, then get a friend of the PCs to play the troll on the HeroQuest. If Orlanth raids Yelm's Halls then get the guards drunk before the HeroQuest.

They can try, but I can see it being very difficult to ensure that the friend of the PCs will be the one "chosen" by the heroquest to play the troll, rather than a real enemy. It would seem to me that it would be unlikely that this friend would be the best match for the opponent, and the write-ups say that typically the best match is chosen.

I am not trying to disagree whatsoever with the idea of playing heroquests in this way. But I didn't think that was the original intention.