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Great temples:
 
1. Peralam Vanch
2. Daughter’s Road Holay
3. Domanand (Mirin’s Cross) Holay
4. Vanntar (Sun County) Sartar
5. Little Cafol Sylila
6. Laramite Hills (Kareiston’s Temple) Imther
7. Linstingland (Lingsting Sun Dome) Talastar
8. Zalador Hills (Zalan Sun Dome) Holay
9. Orenair Sun Dome Aggar
10. Upper Forantin Sun Dome Aggar
11. Ever-New-Glory Tarsh
12. Goldedge Tarsh
13. Karia March Delela in Ralios
14. North Dona (Northbank) Janube River in Fronela
15. Mo Baustra (Sun Dome County) Prax
 
There are many lesser temples including:
 
A Alda-Chur Far Place
B Dykene Balazar
C Elkoi Balazar
D Garhound Prax
E Pavis Prax
F Salantor Aggar
G Serene Victory Jarst
H Southbank Janube River in Fronela
 
Extinguished temples include:
 
x Billiz Aggar
y Hesterneo Esrolia
z Masassakar Aggar
 Sereventh Sylila

Saird2.JPG

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If you are going to include lesser temples, there should be one in Dinacoli tribal lands, too - the Dinacoli being one of the horse-riding Yelmalian tribes, and not that close to Alda-chur that they could share into that temple on a regular basis. (Besides, they used to be part of the Jonstown city ring.)

Are you going to map the Yelmalio presence among the aldryami, too? Elf holy places used to be a go-to alternative for Yelmalians off to the west.

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I wouldn't go down to the shrine level. Minor temples only exist where Yelmalio is the main god of a clan - which appears maybe twice in Sartar (maybe three times, but not much more than that). 


Other holy sites would include Sun Elf Hill in the Grazelands. There's a few others in the Old Woods and Arstola Forest, as well as at least one in Rist.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you are going to include lesser temples, there should be one in Dinacoli tribal lands, too - the Dinacoli being one of the horse-riding Yelmalian tribes, and not that close to Alda-chur that they could share into that temple on a regular basis. (Besides, they used to be part of the Jonstown city ring.)

Only the significant ones.

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are you going to map the Yelmalio presence among the aldryami, too? Elf holy places used to be a go-to alternative for Yelmalians off to the west.

I only know of a few Halamalao sites. The intention was to map significant Yelmalio temples, and a few of the outlier shrines to give an impression of the centres of the cult.

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I wouldn't go down to the shrine level. Minor temples only exist where Yelmalio is the main god of a clan - which appears maybe twice in Sartar (maybe three times, but not much more than that). 

Yes - I'm not going to drill down further, as the map would become very cluttered in the few centres of Yelmalio worship. There are only four or five regions where the cult has a significant presence. I imagine that the range of the Yelorna cult in Ralios and Prax would increase the coverage, but neither appear to be large.

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Other holy sites would include Sun Elf Hill in the Grazelands. There's a few others in the Old Woods and Arstola Forest, as well as at least one in Rist.

I knew of the former, but not the latter ones. What I'm interested in is where the name Tharkantus came from! The -us is a Dara Happan masculine ending, and -kantus appears in a few Dara Happan names, but the actual source of the name beyond Severinalus (and published material on him is slim) eludes me.

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 One thing I have always wondered about Sun Dome Temples is are they open to ALL worshippers of Yelmalio?

 For example if two Darra Happa families are engaged in a Dart War can  a truce be declared and have both sides worship at the Local Temple before trying to kill each other in a polite civilized manner?

 Or in Prax a number of  members of the Impala tribe worship Yelmalio, are they allowed to attend worship at the main temple in Sun Country?

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9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Great temples:

Btw, these are the names that Jeff and I identified as associated with a number of the Great Temples:

1. Peralam (Vanch, near the Hill of Gold)

2. White Rock (Holay, beside the Daughter’s Road)

3. Domanand (Saird, within Mirin’s Cross)

4. Vanntar (Sartar)

5. True Sky (Sylila, at Little Cafol)

6. Kareiston’s Temple (Imther, in the Laramite Hills)

7. Last Light (?) (Lakrene, in Linstingland)

8. Zalan’s Dome (Holay, in the Zalador Hills)

9. Cold Sun (Aggar, in Orenair near Burnt Hill)

10. Crystal Point (Aggar, Upper Forantin River near Diamond Hills)

11. Ever-Victorious Glory (Tarsh)

12. Goldedge (Tarsh)

I have some writeups for those that are situated within greater Saird.

Edited by jajagappa

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42 minutes ago, TRose said:

 For example if two Darra Happa families are engaged in a Dart War can  a truce be declared and have both sides worship at the Local Temple before trying to kill each other in a polite civilized manner?

Yelmalio doesn't appear to be a Dara Happan deity in the 3rd Age, but a southern 'barbarian' one.

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32 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Btw, these are the names that Jeff and I identified as associated with a number of the Great Temples:

I'm using the names given in Pavis: GtA, augmented by the Guide. It's possible where the two lists differ, you are giving the local names?

Have added your names to my list - grrh, lost my reading glasses - having to sit way back from the screen.

 

32 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I have some writeups for those that are situated within greater Saird.

Would be interested in seeing that, please.

Edited by M Helsdon

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23 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

It's possible where the two lists differ, you are giving the local names?

Yes, these are intended to be the local names familiar through Saird and the Lunar Provinces.  Part of a Saird book for HQG that's in development (and largely on hold until I get done with material on Nochet).

Quote

Would be interested in seeing that, please.

Here are some of them.  Bear in mind that these were built out post-Guide in discussion with Jeff, but have not gone through any further editing.

White Rock Temple (Sun Dome)

This is one of the Sun Dome Temples of the Yelmalio cult and it sits at a key site along the Daughter’s Road.  Many consider this to be the greatest of the existing Yelmalion temples, and it certainly dominates the land south of the Jader and east of the Oslir, particularly along the Daughter’s Road which the Templars help guard.   Nearby is the famed White Rock and below it, the great Salt Quarry where the Sun of the Son defeated and burned away a fearsome water god that advanced against the Empire of the Sun. 

The temple bustles with activity, preparing for the trials their Count Yugathus and the Sun Lord Herkanthos see coming in the days and years ahead.  The Queen of White Rock is chosen by the Count from three candidates selected by the Queen of Holay from within the Bell Temple.  The candidates bear the Three Sacred Fruits to the ceremony.  Whichever is chosen by the Count, her fruit is blessed within the surrounding lands until her passing.

True Sky Sun Dome

This Yelmalio Sun Dome temple in the hills between Little Cafol and Thubana defends Sylila from the Orlanthi barbarians. The cult supplies the satrap with disciplined pikemen.

The Count of this Sun Dome cannot be married, and must sever his bonds with his wife if he is married upon his ascension.  The Counts must maintain a ritual purity ever after, aided by a Priest of Enverinus who represents the lost power of Fire.

Zalan’s Sun Dome

The farmlands between the Zalador Hills and the Oslir River are defended against trolls, bandits, and raiders by this Sun Dome Temple.  It fiercely defends its independence, until the right price comes along, at which point the inhabitants of military age become dedicated mercenaries.

When an old Count dies, a new Count is chosen from the unmarried leaders and he departs for Filichet at the end of his first Seaseason.  There, the Queen of Filichet selects a Queen for the new Count and the two are married within the Bell Temple on the first day of Fireseason.  The path taken upon their return to Zalan’s Dome is marked by beautiful sunflowers which rise in their wake.

Peralam and the Hill of Gold

The small city called Peralam sits just north of the Daughter’s Second Road near the Hill of Gold, and it is the most important place of pilgrimage for the cult of Yelmalio. It was here that Yelmalio was sorely wounded by another god, lost his weapons, and bled his power upon the earth before he rose again in Cold Light. The Glacier stopped right at the Hill of Gold, held off by Yelmalio’s blinding and unwavering light. No physical structure exists on the top of hill, although many temples can be found in the nearby city which prospers from the visiting pilgrims.  Normal folk stay away from the lurking shadows, the chilling air, the gusty winds, and hard-eyed warriors that haunt the great hill itself.

Herganor was the priest of Antirius who came to bring justice to Vanch after Mahzanelm's death.   Herganor went to the Hill of Gold and on that way met a Tunoraling.  This was Ronoran, Chief of Bikhy, and Ronoran revealed the mask of Tunoral called Kemel the Dutiful.  This revelation sparked Herganor to build a temple of Antirius in Vanch in which Kemel could serve.  This temple was named Peralam and was fashioned in the shape of a dome, but not set upon a square, and its compound was walled without gates and had steps to go up to enter.   Now this temple supports Yelmalio, but still Kemel the Dutiful serves there, forever following his lord.  This is the closest Yelmalio temple to the Hill of Gold though other deities are worshipped here as well such as Antirius and Heliakal, the latter called the Doomed by the Vanchites.

East of the Hill of Gold towards Bikhy are the Darkcrow Woods.  Here Tunoral and Khelmal met after their retreat from the Hill of Gold where Heliakal fell.  Here the two quarreled over the remains of Heliakal.  From here, Khelmal went east towards the mountains carrying the Torch and the Shield.  From here, Tunoral went south into Raccoon’s Deep carrying the Mantle and the Eyes.  As to the question of who won the quarrel, this is still debated by Vanchites and Imtherians.  These woods are dark and brooding.  The sounds of crows sporadically interrupt the otherwise ominous silence.  And there is always a feeling of being watched.  Outlaws and criminals gather here, hiding from those who seek them. 

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10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, these are intended to be the local names familiar through Saird and the Lunar Provinces.  Part of a Saird book for HQG that's in development (and largely on hold until I get done with material on Nochet).

Here are some of them.  Bear in mind that these were built out post-Guide in discussion with Jeff, but have not gone through any further editing.

Interesting. Hmm, my attempt to write a history of Saird (and the Sun Dome Temples) appears to be premature and nugatory... 8-(

Peralam appears to translate as Hill of Gold according to GRoY, page 30. I also believe your Kemel the Dutiful served Heliacal the Sun based on the Dawn chapter in the Guide to Glorantha, and Heliacal seems to now be Yelmalio based on the entry for New Lolon.

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

a history of Saird (and the Sun Dome Temples)

There's a fair bit of material on Saird, Vanch, and Imther - some in development for an HQG book on the region, some published in the fanzines (NLG, TotRM, Enclosure, and Codex particularly), some prepared for publication but never released (mostly Imther), some worked on with Greg and Jeff (Verenmars Saga, Kings of Saird), and a lot of other material on Vanch, Imther, and Sylila.  But there's also a lot that's not done and plenty to work on.

Quote

Peralam appears to translate as Hill of Gold according to GRoY, page 30

Yes, correct.

Quote

Heliacal seems to now be Yelmalio based on the entry for New Lolon

Well maybe, maybe not.  Heliacal was certainly one of the Many Suns and his Seat of Judgment was at Lolon.  But the Seat of Judgment was broken and lost, most likely carted off by the DH.  He is likely equated now with Yelmalio.  But if you use his myths instead of Yelmalio's you probably won't get the same result.

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2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's a fair bit of material on Saird, Vanch, and Imther - some in development for an HQG book on the region, some published in the fanzines (NLG, TotRM, Enclosure, and Codex particularly), some prepared for publication but never released (mostly Imther), some worked on with Greg and Jeff (Verenmars Saga, Kings of Saird), and a lot of other material on Vanch, Imther, and Sylila.  But there's also a lot that's not done and plenty to work on.

I've seen (most of) TOTRM and Codex, but not the others.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Well maybe, maybe not.  Heliacal was certainly one of the Many Suns and his Seat of Judgment was at Lolon.  But the Seat of Judgment was broken and lost, most likely carted off by the DH.  He is likely equated now with Yelmalio.  But if you use his myths instead of Yelmalio's you probably won't get the same result.

In unpublished material, I've seen that he shares the Hill of Gold story, but perhaps it isn't the story but a story. We've had this conversation on the Google list, but reading the Guide, Yelmalio seems to have supplanted Heliacal in New Lolon to the extent of having the same wife there. I fear that Sairdite myths are thoroughly corrupt in that they've taken local and foreign sources over centuries to create a local syncretic form...

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50 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I fear that Sairdite myths are thoroughly corrupt in that they've taken local and foreign sources over centuries to create a local syncretic form...

;) And they are nowhere near as bad as the thieving Vanchites!

But, yes, Saird has been awash in local and then overlapping waves of Orlanthi, DH, Lunar, and even Praxian and Pentan sources across at least 12 centuries.  In most places Yelmalio is the recognized figure except scattered Vanchite settlements and some of the Imtherian clans. 

Btw, I've sent you some material to the email address of yours that I have.

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1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

;) And they are nowhere near as bad as the thieving Vanchites!

I'd put it down to what happens were slightly similar (and sometimes divergent) religions collide. Saird seems to be Glorantha's ancient Syria.

 

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Btw, I've sent you some material to the email address of yours that I have.

Received but not read. Thank you. I'll send you my Sun Dome history later today.

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21 hours ago, TRose said:

 One thing I have always wondered about Sun Dome Temples is are they open to ALL worshippers of Yelmalio?

[...]

Or in Prax a number of  members of the Impala tribe worship Yelmalio, are they allowed to attend worship at the main temple in Sun Country?

There are about 14700 Yelmalio worshippers amongst the Praxian tribes. The population of Sun County is only 20,000, given that half are children, the remainder is half men. That gives a maximum of 5000 Yelmalio initiates. The nomads outnumber them about 2:1. The structure of Yelmalio is different amongst the tribes - they have only Light Khans, no priests. So the Yemalio temples are their major worship temples. Yes they are welcome, and yes there are ancient pacts in place that prevent them overrunning the land. Look when the Praxian lords of Sun County ended for when these pacts came into place.

Numbers for the interested:

7800 - Impala tribe

163 - High Llama tribe

5625 - Sable tribe

400 - Bison tribe

(No Morokanth other than PCs:-)

225 - Agimori tribe

90 - Rhino tribe

90 - Ostrich tribe

40 - Unicorn tribe

(No Baboons other than Melo Yellow and PCs)

158 - Bolo Lizard tribe

34 - Zebra tribe

42 - Pol-Joni tribe

(No Basmoli or Newtlings other than PCs:-)

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22 hours ago, TRose said:

One thing I have always wondered about Sun Dome Temples is are they open to ALL worshippers of Yelmalio?

Generally I'd say yes - they would recognize this person as a man of Light and Truth.  Some differences in customs amongst the temples, but likely more at either the 'political' level or the level of common austerities (i.e. shared geases).

 

22 hours ago, TRose said:

For example if two Darra Happa families are engaged in a Dart War can  a truce be declared and have both sides worship at the Local Temple before trying to kill each other in a polite civilized manner?

The DH families would likely be worshipping Yelm rather than Yelmalio, otherwise you'd be pretty low on the scale of nobility.  But in the Provinces where you still have clan feuds, they would likely declare a truce for worship at the Local Temple and within whatever the boundaries are for the temple lands (similar to how both the Orlmarth and Greydogs come to the Feast of Beasts at Clearwine in SKoH).  I'm sure Yelmalio would blind the instigators of any who violate such a truce as it would be violating their oaths to the god.

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Just a warning - for my sanity I tend to use the most prevalent name for a god, even if the god is commonly called something else in a particular location. Thus Orlanth is called Orlanth is Safelster, Junora, etc., even if the local name for him is likely something else. Just like in our world, gods have many names and titles.

Yelmalio - the "Little Sun" - is the prevalent name for the god of the Sun Dome Temples, although I am sure he has many more. 

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6 hours ago, David Scott said:

There are about 14700 Yelmalio worshippers amongst the Praxian tribes. The population of Sun County is only 20,000, given that half are children, the remainder is half men. That gives a maximum of 5000 Yelmalio initiates. The nomads outnumber them about 2:1. The structure of Yelmalio is different amongst the tribes - they have only Light Khans, no priests. So the Yemalio temples are their major worship temples. Yes they are welcome, and yes there are ancient pacts in place that prevent them overrunning the land. Look when the Praxian lords of Sun County ended for when these pacts came into place.

Very interesting. Glancing at the list of Counts, Golungan (1343-1352) seems to be the first nomad count, though it is hard to determine which was the last nomad count - possibly Poskuturri (1537-1556). However, monikers such as Literate or Peasant suggest that nomad rule was not constant.

Edited by M Helsdon

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9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Very interesting. Glancing at the list of Counts, Golungan (1343-1352) seems to be the first nomad count, though it is hard to determine which was the last nomad count - possibly Poskuturri (1537-1556). However, monikers such as Literate or Peasant suggest that nomad rule was not constant.

Its a wee bit more complicated than that.  Circa 1250 ST, the Pure Horse Tribe gets destroyed.  Yet the Sun Dome Temple continues intact - there's no change in Count or anything.

In 1361 ST, the Praxians submit to Sheng Seleris at the Huck Sheng Hills and their submission continues until his death in 1460 ST - they were sending troops to aid in an invasion of Vormain as late as 1452 ST, yet there's no sign of this on the Counts list.

My thinking is that originally the Sun Domers were allies of the Pure Horse Tribe.  Then came Seleteen and the Sun Domers switched allegiances from the Pure Horse Tribe to the Teshnans.  Bereft of their walking allies, the Pure Horse Tribe gets wiped out.  Some Sun Dome prohibitions could conceivably be traced to a backlash on Teshnan influences - the wearing of red or disguising oneself as a women.

The Teshnan influence lasts until the arrival of the Seleran Empire.  I'm of the opinion that the Selerans used Jaldon Toothmaker as a focus for their authority.  The Teshnans seem to be destroyed by the Selerans with the Sun Domers making another shift of allegiances to ensure their survival.  Their geases may stem from this time as a slavish emulation of Seleran virtues.  After the collapse of the Seleran Empire, nomad interest in worshipping Sheng Seleris declines rapidly and they no longer have a need to control the Sun Dome temple.

 

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Then came Seleteen and the Sun Domers switched allegiances from the Pure Horse Tribe to the Teshnans.  Bereft of their walking allies, the Pure Horse Tribe gets wiped out.  Some Sun Dome prohibitions could conceivably be traced to a backlash on Teshnan influences - the wearing of red or disguising oneself as a women.

The Teshnan influence lasts until the arrival of the Seleran Empire.  

I am unable of any reference to a Seleteen or any Teshnan influence in Sun County. I assume that Seleran Empire is a non-canonical name for the empire of Sheng Seleris?

Edited by M Helsdon

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Selenteen of Alampish was a Teshnite hero who led an expedition into the Wastelands in 1250, seeking the Red Sword. Selenteen failed to find the sword, but established a colony at the mouth of the Zola Fel that lasted several generations before disappearing, the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes. Guide, page 429. 

Seleran Empire is a name used by some scholars for the empire of Sheng Seleris. I'm pretty sure it called itself the Celestial Empire (and before that the Great Horde).

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4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Selenteen of Alampish was a Teshnite hero who led an expedition into the Wastelands in 1250, seeking the Red Sword. Selenteen failed to find the sword, but established a colony at the mouth of the Zola Fel that lasted several generations before disappearing, the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes. Guide, page 429. 

Ah, Selenteen. Thank you.

There's no sign of any significant Teshnan contact with Sun County, given that the period is known there as the Solitude of Testing.

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5 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Ah, Selenteen. Thank you.

There's no sign of any significant Teshnan contact with Sun County, given that the period is known there as the Solitude of Testing.

Sorry for misspelling Selenteen.

As for there being no sign of any significant Teshnan contact, that falls in the same category as the curious incident of the dog in the night time.  It's just down the river!

My guess is that the Solitude of Testing is an artefact caused by the deliberate forgetting of large periods of Sun Dome history considering that it's embarrassing to the current priesthood (betrayal of fellow light worshippers, Teshnan debauchery and a nightmarish occupation).  Only in the lists of the High Priests would one find hints at the real story.

 

 

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