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Sun Dome Temples


M Helsdon

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55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The temple was originally that of Beren/Hyalor and Redaylda.  But Beren/Hyalor at this temple have acquired the attributes of Yelm the Rider due to Lunar influence.  This is closely tied to the old myth of Yelm the Rider/Hyalor Horsebreaker.  This is a key aspect of Lunar control of Saird.  This temple holds at least some of the key artifacts in support of Appius Luxius and may include:  the Lasso (or Rope or Lash) of Hyalor, the Golden Bit, the Bridle of Domination, the Fire-woven Blanket, and the Chariot of Lightfore. These artifacts suppress the sovereignty of Redaylda.

But the Guide to Glorantha doesn't say that. No mention of Yelm in Mirin's Cross. I'll take the Guide as Canonical and anything that contradicts it as not.

If it were a Temple to Yelm and Redaylda the Guide section of Mirin's Cross would have said so.

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8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

If it were a Temple to Yelm and Redaylda the Guide section of Mirin's Cross would have said so.

I have to disagree with you on this Martin. As @Jeff continually reminded me as I put too much detail in, the Guide is the view from 30000'. I would not take an omission in the Guide as it does not exist. There is a Gorakiki shrine on the South coast of Prax, it's not in the Guide as it was edited out as too much detail, but that does not mean that it's gone.

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51 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I have to disagree with you on this Martin. As @Jeff continually reminded me as I put too much detail in, the Guide is the view from 30000'. I would not take an omission in the Guide as it does not exist. There is a Gorakiki shrine on the South coast of Prax, it's not in the Guide as it was edited out as too much detail, but that does not mean that it's gone.

I would accept your opinion, if it were not that the Temple to Yelm and Redaylda is so large on the map. It would be visible from 30000', and the implications for the local culture are significant. 8-(

I would also note that the temples of Mirin's Cross are far too large for a Bronze Age urban center - there's a common error of inflation in fantasy worlds. In the real cultures these game settings attempt to emulate, large impressive structures were rare: you'd have to look at ancient Egypt, specifically the temples of Luxor/Karnak which had been subject to building programs for longer than Glorantha has had Time, ancient Babylon (even Nochet doesn't compare with Babylon at its greatest size), Alexander's Alexandria (about three times the population of Nochet), imperial Rome (and most temples were small and shut for most of the year), (Rome was ten times larger than Nochet) or Constantinople. You might argue that based on the syncretic combinations, Mirin's Cross is roughly analogous to Baalbek/Heliopolis but even the Roman temple complex, whilst impressive, wasn't as extensive as the temple zones of Mirin's Cross. For an assessment of scale, the ziggurat at Babylon (possibly the largest), the Etemenanki, had seven levels, reached a height of around 300 feet and was also 300 feet by 300 feet square at its base.

And even the Karnak Temple Complex isn't particularly large - I could walk from one side to the other of the Precinct of Amen-Re quite quickly. Even walking to the nearby Luxor Temple didn't take very long, despite the crowds.

Now the Colosseum in Rome is larger, 615 by 510 feet, but I expected it to be much larger, based on Gladiator, but Holywood always scales everything up. The Colosseum, imposing as it is, was built for a city with a population around a million (no Gloranthan city is as large).

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36 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I have to disagree with you on this Martin. As @Jeff continually reminded me as I put too much detail in, the Guide is the view from 30000'. I would not take an omission in the Guide as it does not exist.

Agree with David here.  Plus, we will find/discover new details as we work through an area in greater detail. 

Also, there is no particular contradiction here.  Hyalor is the hero who emulated the deeds of Yelm the Rider and is the husband that folk call upon.  But as we see in Pavis book, it is Yelm who names and commands the Armless Howler.

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7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Plus, we will find/discover new details as we work through an area in greater detail. 

Retconning is inherently damaging.

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Also, there is no particular contradiction here.  Hyalor is the hero who emulated the deeds of Yelm the Rider and is the husband that folk call upon.  But as we see in Pavis book, it is Yelm who names and commands the Armless Howler.

Yet the Armless Howler (Redalda, Servant of Reladivus, Mistress of Nivorah) is at a disadvantage when opposing not the Emperor, but the Little Sun, named as Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio...

No mention of Yelm, who attempts to Name all the Gods of Below. No special relationship between Yelm and the Armless Howler is apparent.

I imagine we can argue this out ad infinitum, but such minutiae are rarely satisfying.

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48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

the implications for the local culture are significant

Actually, no, it just means that the Lunar Empire rules Saird.  This is the center of the Lunar Provincial Administration and it will work to ensure its position both magically and physically, including refocusing rituals.  It's had 30+ years to do so.

Also, remember as I said, this is an in-progress map.  What time I've had over the past year+ has gone to Nochet, not the Saird material. 

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3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Retconning is inherently damaging

Not working to retcon anything in the Guide here, but there is room for detail and nuance. 

 

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I imagine we can argue this out ad infinitum, but such minutiae are rarely satisfying.

Yes, that's very true.

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Just now, jajagappa said:

Actually, no, it just means that the Lunar Empire rules Saird.  This is the center of the Lunar Provincial Administration and it will work to ensure its position both magically and physically, including refocusing rituals.  It's had 30+ years to do so.

And the Guide was 'written' in 1621, so the material should reflect the cultural and political situation that year.

There's no easy resolution.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Also, remember as I said, this is an in-progress map.  What time I've had over the past year+ has gone to Nochet, not the Saird material. 

Understood.

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Not working to retcon anything in the Guide here, but there is room for detail and nuance. 

There's a limit to detail and nuance if a fantasy world isn't going to collapse into overkill.

There's a fine line between designing a background for playability, accessibility, comprehension and fun, and in some cases Glorantha has crossed that boundary in the past. I'm thinking of the retconning of Yelmalio which wasn't sufficiently marked as purely local, or the Entekosiad, which I tried to read again yesterday. It's only in the last few years that I have accumulated the entire Stafford Library, and I believe I can see why the Lunar equivalent to King of Sartar isn't on our shelves. Many years ago I was attempting to write an Alternate History set mostly in Britain in what would be the 1st century (I had the beginning and end but eventually couldn't work through the middle). This involved a fair bit of research, and I found an incredible resource online detailing every settlement of Roman Britain and a great deal more. I chatted online with its creator, and we were able to swap a few things. He also explained he started building the site to support his own novel of Roman Britain, but the site took over because he never had quite enough information. He never got beyond a few chapters because there was always a little more to add to his website. There comes a point where if you try to detail too much the minutiae take over.

No doubt the Entekosiad has its fans, but it hasn't helped my understanding of Glorantha - it's done the opposite. Too much detail and nuance will cause overload.

I'd taken the Guide as definitive, and using it and a few other bits of canon in the public domain, I've attempted to work out the history of the Sun Dome Temples, which led me to trying to determine more about Saird. It all started to appear to come together - with a few loose ends, but in real history, especially ancient history, loose ends are inevitable. A few well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty lent a sense of reality. Not every mystery should be explored. Not every question should have an answer.

I'd already come to the conclusion that the Horse Goddess of Saird has a number of husbands. I'd never considered Yelm (who seems more an exclusive deity of the nobility, has a specific wife, possibly concubines) would share a temple with the Armless Howler. Especially when in Mirin's Cross Redaylda’s husband is detailed to be another horse god, Hyalor/Beren. It simply feels politically, historically, mythically wrong.

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If you examine http://www.glorantha.com/docs/history-of-dragon-pass-in-the-second-age/ specifically:

c. 700. Saird ruled by “EWF”. (TFS)

So shows the map. BUT it is really a battle ground between the city of Domanand and the Kingdom of Orlanthland. While the Kingdom was still not called the EWF by/about this time, Obduran the Flyer or his faction is relatively strong. Dragons are active in the war.

You will find that Saird was an enemy of Orlantlanth in all its manifestations until it was conquered. As Domanand was the center of the Sun Dome and the center of resistance, it is apparent the Templars fought against the Orlanthi to the south.

I find Saird to be the home base of the Traditionalists - those former powerful leaders who persecuted the draconic worshippers in the first half of the seventh century, when the temple of Domanand is reported to have been established.

Saird and Kerofinela have as much in common as Kethaela and Kerofinela. Mirin's Cross is part of Holay, an ancient Heortling territory. I am willing to grant an ancient rivalry between the Sylilings and the Heortlings (see the myth how Vingkot slew the Star Bear and created Grizzley Peak), but the southern part of Saird is Orlanthland.

To recapitulate - around 565 the first draconic worshippers become a factor in Orlanthland. By 600 the coven of priests ruling the "kingdom" of Orlanthland has declared a war on them, pushing them into the wilds and obscurity. By 650, Orlaront and his proven way of combining worship of Orlanth with being a dragonfriend begins to subvert the silent majority of the Heortlings, and by 700 those priests who oppose the draconic movement are no longer in power in Kerofinela where the draconic presence is strongest. This is when Saird becomes the foe of the draconic core lands. Basically, the traditionalist lands that still persecute the draconic worshippers secede from Orlanthland. So the leaders who take Domanand as their stronghold are the very ones that used to be in power over all of Orlanthland just 50 years earlier.

I am aware that this is not how you mean to rewrite the history of the Sun Dome Temples in Saird, but it is a valid interpretation of the evidence you present.

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide to Glorantha:

Redaylda’s husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren.

Although Yelmalio has been the divine defender of Mirin’s Cross since the Second Age, its tribal guardians are Redaylda and her husband Hyalor.

The latter being in the Mirin's Cross entry.

So basically we get a conflation of Beren the Hyaloring and his ancestor in the local cult. We don't learn anything about the role of Elmal in the expansion of the Tharkantus cult. We do know that at least south of the dragonkill the Tharkantus cult lost to Elmal among the Heortlings (and Esrolians) like e.g. the Runegate Triaty or the Locaem while we get Yelmalio-worshipping Heortlings following Arim into Kerofinela from the north, including the Far Point tribe(s) and the Dinacoli.

Hyalor was the riding god of the horse nomads of eastern Peloria and Pent, adopted by the Kargzant people. We know that the horse warlords of Dawn Age Peloria were pushed into Pent after the Theyalans aided the Dara Happan uprising.

Hyalor originally was not part of the Horse Nomad culture, but became their rider cult only after the warlords were dislocated from Peloria. From the Guide (p. 364):

Quote

Shortly after the Dawn, the horse nomads descended from the Starlight Ancestors came into conflict with a tribe of horse riders, called the Pure Horse People or Hyalorings. The other tribes called them the Liars, as they claimed to be the original horse people and herded only horses. In all the contests between the Hirenmador and the Pure Horse People, the horse riders defeated the chariot riders. Despite this, Pure Horse People eventually ceased to exist as a tribe, becoming a special priestly caste among many tribes. In turn, the chariot slowly gave way to the mounted horse.

The Sairdite merger between Vingkotlings and Hyalorings into the Berennethtelli indicates that the original Pure Horse folk were active in this region, and there was no influence of Kargzant. The rise of Vuranostum to emperor of Dara Happa also indicates their continued presence long after the Berennethtelli merger. They don't appear to be sedentary folk, though.

The Berennethtelli as a tribe were destroyed in the struggle with Lokamayadon's Talastarings and the Bright Empire. Their tribal religion and traditions appears to have survived in specialized clans elsewhere in Heortling and possibly other Sairdite Orlanthi tribes.

Somehow the Hyaloring inheritance (though not the Kargzant inheritance) made it into the Tharkantus cult. When and where?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Also, there is no particular contradiction here.  Hyalor is the hero who emulated the deeds of Yelm the Rider and is the husband that folk call upon.  But as we see in Pavis book, it is Yelm who names and commands the Armless Howler.

It is Yelm the Rider who emulates the deeds of Hyalor, really.

When Greg insisted on the strict separation of spirit and theistic world, Hyalor and Hippogriff were strictly Spirit World folk. The connection to Beren sort of softened that, but offered a connection to Elmal, the naming god of Elempur, instead.

The Hyalorings appear to have a connection to Nivorah (Jillaro) rather than Elempur, though.

Armless Gamara shares the myth of Hippoi. Does this make Reladivus Hyalor? Or do we have Reladiva/Redaylde as the wife of Elmal/Beren the Rider, prior to the Flood?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I find Saird to be the home base of the Traditionalists - those former powerful leaders who persecuted the draconic worshippers in the first half of the seventh century, when the temple of Domanand is reported to have been established.

True.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Saird and Kerofinela have as much in common as Kethaela and Kerofinela. Mirin's Cross is part of Holay, an ancient Heortling territory. I am willing to grant an ancient rivalry between the Sylilings and the Heortlings (see the myth how Vingkot slew the Star Bear and created Grizzley Peak), but the southern part of Saird is Orlanthland.

False. Saird has been subject to a wider variety of cultural influences, primarily Solar, for centuries, in both conflict and co-operation. And more recently Lunar influences for nearly three centuries.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

To recapitulate - around 565 the first draconic worshippers become a factor in Orlanthland. By 600 the coven of priests ruling the "kingdom" of Orlanthland has declared a war on them, pushing them into the wilds and obscurity. By 650, Orlaront and his proven way of combining worship of Orlanth with being a dragonfriend begins to subvert the silent majority of the Heortlings, and by 700 those priests who oppose the draconic movement are no longer in power in Kerofinela where the draconic presence is strongest. This is when Saird becomes the foe of the draconic core lands. Basically, the traditionalist lands that still persecute the draconic worshippers secede from Orlanthland. So the leaders who take Domanand as their stronghold are the very ones that used to be in power over all of Orlanthland just 50 years earlier.

I am aware that this is not how you mean to rewrite the history of the Sun Dome Temples in Saird, but it is a valid interpretation of the evidence you present.

I haven't looked in detail at the political machinations in Orlanthland - I'm interested in the fact that the Sun Domers and Traditionalists in Saird held off the Draconics for nearly a century. After that, Sun Domers and Traditionalists fell under the sway of the Draconics.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

So basically we get a conflation of Beren the Hyaloring and his ancestor in the local cult.

They appear to be one and the same.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

We don't learn anything about the role of Elmal in the expansion of the Tharkantus cult. We do know that at least south of the dragonkill the Tharkantus cult lost to Elmal among the Heortlings (and Esrolians) like e.g. the Runegate Triaty or the Locaem while we get Yelmalio-worshipping Heortlings following Arim into Kerofinela from the north, including the Far Point tribe(s) and the Dinacoli.

I doubt there was any significant role of the minor Elmal cult in the expansion of the northern Tharkantus/Yelmalio cult.

The Dragonkill killed off the 'Tharkantus' cult in Dragon Pass, along with everyone else. It was destroyed by the Queens in Esrolia.

However, it survived in Prax.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Hyalor was the riding god of the horse nomads of eastern Peloria and Pent, adopted by the Kargzant people. We know that the horse warlords of Dawn Age Peloria were pushed into Pent after the Theyalans aided the Dara Happan uprising.

Hyalor originally was not part of the Horse Nomad culture, but became their rider cult only after the warlords were dislocated from Peloria. From the Guide (p. 364):

The Sairdite merger between Vingkotlings and Hyalorings into the Berennethtelli indicates that the original Pure Horse folk were active in this region, and there was no influence of Kargzant. The rise of Vuranostum to emperor of Dara Happa also indicates their continued presence long after the Berennethtelli merger. They don't appear to be sedentary folk, though.

Hyalor appears to be Sairdite, specifically Beren.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Somehow the Hyaloring inheritance (though not the Kargzant inheritance) made it into the Tharkantus cult. When and where?

Where? Saird.

When? It seems very ancient.

According to the write-up of the Yelm cult in the Cult Compendium, Hyalor was a son of a son of Yelm...

Tharkantus appears related to the name Kargzant with the addition of a Dara Happan masculine suffix (a distinct but possible shift in consonants). The Lunars associate the Little Sun with Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio. The planet Lightfore, the Little Sun, is associated with Antirius by the Dara Happans, Yelmalio by the Orlanthi, and Kargzant by the Pentans. As the objects in the sky seem to express deities in Glorantha (even Orlanth has his stars) it seems probable that Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio are 'avatars' of a single entity.

Reladivus was the god of Nivorah, which seems to have been located somewhere in Saird. Saird has been the center of the Tharkantus/Yelmalio cult for at least a thousand years.

Yelmalio is one of the sons of Yelm; perhaps Hyalor is a son of Yelmalio... No, he's a son of Yamsur, Yelmalio's dead brother. The association of the ancient Yelmalio cult with horses might thus be explained. The ancient Mirin's Cross trinity of Yelmalio as Defender, and Redaylda and Hyalor as Tribal Guardians is significant.

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53 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelm the Rider riders ride flying creatures, specifically griffins? Not horses.

But who is the Horse Goddess?  The shorn form of Hippogriff, a flying creature.

I think there's a lot more lurking (and possibility) to this myth.

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24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

But who is the Horse Goddess?  The shorn form of Hippogriff, a flying creature.

Hippoi. Which in Glorantha is the shorn form of hippogriff, and in ours, from the Greek, hippos, "horse". [It is mildly amusing that hippogriff is a mixture of Greek and Latin, and so its origin is a combination and in Glorantha it becomes divided... Greg's joke?]

Hippoi can't fly and so isn't ridden by Yelm the Rider.

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think there's a lot more lurking (and possibility) to this myth.

I suspect there's a distinction between a horse goddess (which is a horse), and a goddess of horses (who protects horses and riders, like our world Epona or Rhiannon, and like Rhiannon, Redaylda isn't just a goddess of horses, but perhaps a goddess of sovereignty as well, for Saird).

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27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

False. Saird has been subject to a wider variety of cultural influences, primarily Solar, for centuries, in both conflict and co-operation. And more recently Lunar influences for nearly three centuries.

All of that divergence postdates the appearance ot the Tharkantus cult in the region. Most of Saird was dry land in the Flood era, part of the island of Kerofinela. It was part of the Theyalan lands at the Dawn. During the Bright Empire it shared the treatment of the Heortlings. It shared the burden of Arkat's Command after the Gbaji Wars.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I haven't looked in detail at the political machinations in Orlanthland - I'm interested in the fact that the Sun Domers and Traditionalists in Saird held off the Draconics for nearly a century. After that, Sun Domers and Traditionalists fell under the sway of the Draconics.

My point is that the Traditionalists are just one party in the civil war of Orlanthland that lost their hold on the heartlands of Kerofinela, and created a hold-out in Saird. They are the same people (or at least people from the same families) that pushed the draconics into obscurity in the first half of the seventh century.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

They [Beren and Hyalor] appear to be one and the same.

Hyalor is the original horse rider, and cultural founder of the Hyaloring horse people. Beren is one of several "The Rider"s in the Vingkotling Age. I don't see the founder of a culture undergoing a merger with another (the Vingkotling) culture with the majority of his people keeping to their Pure Horse ways. Beren was at best the leader of a portion of the Pure Horse folk. At least I don't see any evidence that Vuranostum, the Hyaloring emperor of Dara Happa, ever had Berennethtelli roots.

Beren worshipped Elmal. Hyalor quite likely worshipped Yamsur. While the strict separation of Spirit World and God World has been decanonized, I still see significance in the classification of Hippogriff as a spirit entity. It all points to the northern parts of Genert's Garden that we know hardly anything about.

Most of the Yelmic Pentans are from the Kargzant tradition (not necessarily in the sense of a spirit society) that originated in the Arcos Valley. The Rider - Archer - Chief - Elder hierarchy seems to be Hyaloring in origin, but there is no sign of this in the material I have seen on Kargzant and Dawn Age Dara Happa. (In fact, most of the Horse Warlords of Dawn Age Peloria were charioteers rather than riders, with the exception of the Hyalorings, who were defamed as liars by the Kargzanti.)

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I doubt there was any significant role of the minor Elmal cult in the expansion of the northern Tharkantus/Yelmalio cult.

The Elmal cult remained unassailed when the Orlanth cult was suppressed by Lokamayadon. I think that that would have brought an upsurge in the importance of the cult.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Dragonkill killed off the 'Tharkantus' cult in Dragon Pass, along with everyone else. It was destroyed by the Queens in Esrolia.

However, it survived in Prax.

I wonder whether there were Tharkantites south of the Crossline. True, most of them would have been part of the Kethaelan contribution to the Dragonkill War, and the lack of a major Sun Dome temple could have made the difference to their survival compared to the Praxian cult.

 

28 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Hippoi can't fly and so isn't ridden by Yelm the Rider.

What's your reference for Yelm the Rider only riding flying creatures? Rinliddic?

Murharzarm's Muster has him presented with an Augner avilry bird, to be ridden, but flightless.

 

28 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

 

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Hyalor appears to be Sairdite, specifically Beren.

I associate Hyalor with Genert's Garden, and his sun god with Yamsur. Hyalor has always been represented in context with the Storm Bull-descended Beast Riders of Prax.

Genert was lord over all of Pent, not just the Wastes. His battle against the trolls was fought far away from any Beast Man influences. Still, we only see Genert through the Praxian point of view.

Sure, the Kargzanti are immigrants to Pent, originally from the upper Arcos Valley, then spreading all over northern Peloria until driven off by the alliance of the Theyalans with the Avivath clan.

The Hyalorings are curiously absent from the struggle between the Second Council and Dara Happa. Did Vuranostum's bid for emperorhood dissolve them into the horse warlords? Did they stand to the side while the Hirenmador escalated the conflict with the Second Council?

They don't appear as cavalry allies on either side. The Theyalans even bring Galanini from Ralios in addition to the Praxian mercenaries.

Integration of the Hyaloring inheritance into the Tharkantus cult:

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Where? Saird.

When? It seems very ancient.

The Daysenerus cult of Palangio appears to be a resurgence of Rinliddic bird worship. The Vrok Hawk stuff clearly stems from this root.

The Rinliddic bird worshippers and the horse warlords were at odds. Ultimately, the Kargzant followers replaced the bird riding by horse chariots, then after adoption of Hyaloring ways horse riding.

I don't see Palangios Sun Domers fielding cavalry. It does feature in the Tharkantus cult, though.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

According to the write-up of the Yelm cult in the Cult Compendium, Hyalor was a son of a son of Yelm...

Yeah, that Yelm cult. Conflating Grazer, Dara Happan and Pentan practice into one great pastiche that doesn't fit properly in any of those cultures.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Tharkantus appears related to the name Kargzant with the addition of a Dara Happan masculine suffix (a distinct but possible shift in consonants).

Kargzant/Lightfore is the god of the goat-herders of the upper Arcos Valley who somehow gain mastery over horses during their Starlight wanderings. They have their own Star Captains, their own rider gods (like Argoom the Shadow Rider defeated by Vuranostum).

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Lunars associate the Little Sun with Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio.

I have the murky memory that the Lunars claim Reladiva as one of the lesser forms of Sedenya. Not part of the color shift cycle that features Verithurusa, Lesilla, Gerra and Orogeria, and future Zaytenera, but along with a female Jethsarum and Jernotia (as female form of Jernedeus), and possibly a female form of Deumalos, too. All those planetary daughters of Yelm.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The planet Lightfore, the Little Sun, is associated with Antirius by the Dara Happans, Yelmalio by the Orlanthi, and Kargzant by the Pentans. As the objects in the sky seem to express deities in Glorantha (even Orlanth has his stars) it seems probable that Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio are 'avatars' of a single entity.

The identification of Lightfore with Yelmalio by the Orlanthi is puzzling. Especially in light of the rather recent revelation of Yelmalio by Monrogh Lantern in Tarkalor's presence. I wonder whether this reference is a leftover of the world-wide identity of cults like the Yelm write-up in the Cult Compendium.

This makes me wonder about God Learner contacts with the cult of Yelmalio/Tharkantus. Possible contacts are in the Janube Valley, in Ralios, in Kotor, and in the Zola Fel Valley. And of course through plundered Arkati knowledge of the Palangio's cult of Daysenerus.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Reladivus was the god of Nivorah, which seems to have been located somewhere in Saird. Saird has been the center of the Tharkantus/Yelmalio cult for at least a thousand years.

IMO Reladiva was the goddess of Nivorah. Aka Redalda. The god used to be Elmal (again IMO).

GRoY claims that Hastatus was removed from Nivorah to Raibanth. This (not quite planetary) spear god seems like a good candidate for the source of the Sun Dome pikemen.

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelmalio is one of the sons of Yelm; perhaps Hyalor is a son of Yelmalio... No, he's a son of Yamsur, Yelmalio's dead brother. The association of the ancient Yelmalio cult with horses might thus be explained. The ancient Mirin's Cross trinity of Yelmalio as Defender, and Redaylda and Hyalor as Tribal Guardians is significant.

Yamsur points to Genert's Garden, and an origin east of Peloria. The ancient rivalry of Beast Riders and horse riders points to their sharing territory and resources long before the Pure Horse folk invaded Prax late in the Second Age.

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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31 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect there's a distinction between a horse goddess (which is a horse), and a goddess of horses (who protects horses and riders, like our world Epona or Rhiannon, and like Rhiannon, Redaylda isn't just a goddess of horses, but perhaps a goddess of sovereignty as well, for Saird).

I agree. Reladiva/Redaylde is the Goddess of Horses, while Gamara/Hippoi is the horse mother goddess.

Redalda wife of Elmal appears to be a daughter of Ernalda, and an aspect of Ernalda Allmother (which now probably has been de-canonized?). In this aspect, she can be a guarantor of sovereignty. (Interestingly, she is the most adventurous of all Ernalda subcults in the Hero Wars era, too. And one of the few eligible cults available for wives for Grey Sages when treated as subcult of Elmal.)

There are a couple of links between Ernalda and horses - two of her handmaidens are mare goddesses (Beseta and Besanga).

 

An aside to the Hyaloring musings - we know Ulanin the Rider. Was he a Hyaloring, too?

And what is the Galanini take on horse riding?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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GRoY claims that Hastatus was removed from Nivorah to Raibanth. This (not quite planetary) spear god seems like a good candidate for the source of the Sun Dome pikemen.

There's a bit of confusion here.  Hastatus is not associated with Nivorah.  Urvarinus removed Sagittus (the Bow God) from the ruins of Elempur to become the Imperial Bowman in Raibanth GRaY p25.

As for Hastatus being the source of the Sun Dome pikeman, I think it is Daxdarius who is the source of phalanxes and pike-fighting.  

 

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A debate about horses.  Oh dear.  Here's what I can find out.

Horses appear on the Wall.  In the actual placing, they are a type of demon which suggests that Hippogriff has already been wounded.  Now the dating of the Gods Wall is a big question in itself (Plentonius - Yelm's enthronement, Iverlanthus - Murharzarm's murder, me - Murharzarm's enthronement) but I think it safe to say that nobody rode horses in the Golden Age.

The first mention of ridden horses comes from the same period.  The beginning of the reign of Manarlavus. In the Glorious ReAscent, it's portrayed as a discovery by the city of Nivorah while the Entekosiad p51 has the first horsemen appearing as being summoned by Eskarlavus to fight the Bird People of Dashrell (Eskarlavus dies and his brother takes over).  Now what's happening here is that Eskarlavus is summoning troops from the four quarters of the world (According to the Glorious ReAscent, they are the Zarkos, the Suvarians, the Pelandans and the Jarasans).  Since Eskarlavus is fighting bird people, he can't very well use them so he substitute horses instead.

For a long time, I thought that since the Jarasans come from the Northwest, their replacements should too.  Thus Eskarlavus has made contact with the first horsemen in Pent and hired them to defeat the Bird People.  As a result, his brother settles them in Nivorah as a reward whereupon they revolt.  With the publication of the Guide and its completed piccie of the Gods Wall, I am now not so sure.    I had originally thought that the identification of Gamara on the wall was an after the fact rationalisation based on the original stick figure that looked nothing whatsoever like a horse.  Now I think it possible for Nivorah to have discovered riding horses by themselves.

The horsemen of Nivorah would have worshipped Reladivus (whose name as has been pointed out is a masculine version of Reldayle), Hippoi and Hyalor.  Now Reladivus has a history (or rather mythology) prior to his riding horses.  As well as being the God of the City, he is associated with an old debt (GRoY p13) which Murharzarm resolves with token jars and the Sandals of Innocence.  This may be related to the Sandals of Separation which Yelm wears (GRoY p7) to keep the pure skin from touching the impure earth.  Hence what I think has happened was that the holyfolk of Nivorah had a tradition of remaining out of earthern contact in order to remain pure.  Originally they had special shoes but then took to riding on beasts (cattle, sheep) before settling on horses.  Hyalor was probably the King of Nivorah who took up riding hoses.  So that's one of the two traditions of horsemanship in Peloria.

The Starlight Ancestors, the other tradition, are originally from what is now Votankiland who make their way northwards swing around the Hungry Plateau and occupy what remains of Dara Happa.  I believe they obtained their horses from Pent.  A bygone Gregly document (Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings now of uncertain canonity) makes this somewhat implicit with the Starlight Ancestors fighting another tribe at what is now the Elf Sea.  Eventually they make peace, the two tribes become one and Kargzant and Horses start to become mentioned afterwards.  Unlike the Hyalorings/Hyalorong of erstwhile Nivorah, they are Chariot-Riders.  

Now the Guide mentions Star Captains providing light during the Great Darkness at the Celestial Eagle Hills p368 ST.  These hills are in the middle of Pent near the Snowline and far out of the way of the Starlight Ancestors..  The Highest Peak is Polestar Mountain where Polestar taught the Star Gazers.  It's no coincidence surely that Buserian invented his frame from the remains of a Yurt.  It's my belief that Kargzant and his charioteers came from Pent (in the region of the Celestial Eagle Hills) and made their way to Peloria where they came into contact with the Starlight Ancestors.  As a result, their gods were Kargzant, Buserian and Pole Star.  The combined tribes then conquered Dara Happa where they met with the Hyalorings and learned from them the secret of riding horses.  With that knowledge, Pent becomes open to significant human habitation and the rest is history.

 

 

 

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There is a temple to Yelm in Mirin's Cross (the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar). In Mirin's Cross, Yelm's wife is Dendara amongst the nobles, but he is also one of Ernalda's lovers. Redalyde has her own temple as an ancient tribal guardian (along with her faithful husband Hyalor). Whether Beren is another name for Hyalor is a question for the First Age, not the Third.

Although the Hyalorings were in Saird at the Dawn, their heirs are the Pure Horse tribes of Pent, Char-un, and the Grazelands. Not the modern farmers and cities of Saird, who are a mix of lowland Pelorians and Orlanthi. There are some vestigial remnants of the Hyaloring era with some cults (particularly the Red-Haired Goddess), but keep in mind that is submerged beneath many centuries of later settlement. 

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

There is a temple to Yelm in Mirin's Cross (the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar). In Mirin's Cross, Yelm's wife is Dendara amongst the nobles, but he is also one of Ernalda's lovers. Redalyde has her own temple as an ancient tribal guardian (along with her faithful husband Hyalor). Whether Beren is another name for Hyalor is a question for the First Age, not the Third.

Although the Hyalorings were in Saird at the Dawn, their heirs are the Pure Horse tribes of Pent, Char-un, and the Grazelands. Not the modern farmers and cities of Saird, who are a mix of lowland Pelorians and Orlanthi. There are some vestigial remnants of the Hyaloring era with some cults (particularly the Red-Haired Goddess), but keep in mind that is submerged beneath many centuries of later settlement. 

Thank you Jeff, that clears up a lot of my confusion.

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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

What's your reference for Yelm the Rider only riding flying creatures? Rinliddic?

Gods of Light: Yelm from Wyrms Footnotes/Wyrms Footprints.

 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The identification of Lightfore with Yelmalio by the Orlanthi is puzzling. Especially in light of the rather recent revelation of Yelmalio by Monrogh Lantern in Tarkalor's presence.

It's one of the pointers that Monrogh only claims to have refounded the Yelmalio cult - in reality he only refounded it in Sartar.

The Sun Dome Temples fought on all sides of the wars in Peloria during Third and Fourth Wanes (1355-1462), but were mostly allied with the Lunar Provincial Government from 1517 onwards. Given that Monrogh 'refounded' the cult around 1550, his claims are more than a little suspect.

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1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Gods of Light: Yelm from Wyrms Footnotes/Wyrms Footprints.

One of the few sources I don't have in digital format, yet.

The oldest published treatment of the Yelm cult, and since subject to many new revelations. On the whole, I am with Peter @metcalph that the ancient Yelm of Dara Happa had little business riding about. (And I'd include riding horse-drawn chariots, too. I might be moved to allow gazzam-carried howdahs or palanquins.)

I do note that the full RQ3 cult write-up of Yelm as published in the Cult Compendium has a "ride griffin" requirement (as one of several optional skills) for sun lords when the rules for the griffins say that these creatures cannot be trained as steeds. I guess this is one of the conundrums of Yelmic life. (One of the younger griffins of Griffin Mountain offers to carry two-leggers on his back for fun, though.)

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

It's one of the pointers that Monrogh only claims to have refounded the Yelmalio cult - in reality he only refounded it in Sartar.

It is one of the pointers that the introduction of Elmal and the subsequent stuff hasn't influenced this ancient bit of star lore, which was taken over into the Guide without undergoing that redactional process.

And Monrogh probably influenced not only (Old) Sartar, but also all of Maniria.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

The Sun Dome Temples fought on all sides of the wars in Peloria during Third and Fourth Wanes (1355-1462), but were mostly allied with the Lunar Provincial Government from 1517 onwards. Given that Monrogh 'refounded' the cult around 1550, his claims are more than a little suspect.

Nobody claims that Monrogh invented the Sun Dome temples. There is a problem with the Dinacoli tribe - the only Pelorian Orlanthi in Saronil's through Tarkalor's kingdom, part of the Jonstown city ring even before Terasarin added the Far Point to the principality of Sartar.

I see Monrogh as instrumental in reforming the Sun Dome cult of Mo Baustra/Prax, based on his institutions at Vaantar/Vanntar (Sun Dome County in the former Kitori lands). Given the need to fight the Kitori, I see a distinct possibility that Monrogh re-discovered secrets of Daysenerus that were (possibly purposefully) forgotten by the Tharkantus cult of the Second Age. After all, Palangio the Iron Vrok conquered the Kitori, and probably established Vaantar to keep guard on the Obsidian Palace. Some of this may have been fed back to the existing sun dome temples. He certainly used his contact with the eastern wisdom that leaked into the Praxian Sun Dome and from personal exposure in Teshnos.

While Sheng Seleris may have brought Teshnans to Peloria, he doesn't seem to have gained a foothold in the lands of the Sun Dome temples, so there is less of a chance ot get such cross fertilisation during the Seleric empire. This gives the distinct chance that Monrogh had something new to offer to the existing Sun Dome Temples. (Besides the lantern spirit spell...)

I wonder whether the Hyaloring horse stuff in the Yelmalio cult is based on Sairdite influences. But then Hyalor the Rider may be as ubiquitious as Diros the Boater, found on both sides of several fences.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The oldest published treatment of the Yelm cult, and since subject to many new revelations. On the whole, I am with Peter @metcalph that the ancient Yelm of Dara Happa had little business riding about. (And I'd include riding horse-drawn chariots, too. I might be moved to allow gazzam-carried howdahs or palanquins.)

I do note that the full RQ3 cult write-up of Yelm as published in the Cult Compendium has a "ride griffin" requirement (as one of several optional skills) for sun lords when the rules for the griffins say that these creatures cannot be trained as steeds. I guess this is one of the conundrums of Yelmic life. (One of the younger griffins of Griffin Mountain offers to carry two-leggers on his back for fun, though.)

Yes, Yelm the Rider flies. This is why I queried the association with Yelm with horses.

 

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

It is one of the pointers that the introduction of Elmal and the subsequent stuff hasn't influenced this ancient bit of star lore, which was taken over into the Guide without undergoing that redactional process.

I'd suggest it points to Elmal being a relatively minor cult in its host culture, whilst Yelm is a major cult in its host culture.

 

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

And Monrogh probably influenced not only (Old) Sartar, but also all of Maniria.

Nobody claims that Monrogh invented the Sun Dome temples. There is a problem with the Dinacoli tribe - the only Pelorian Orlanthi in Saronil's through Tarkalor's kingdom, part of the Jonstown city ring even before Terasarin added the Far Point to the principality of Sartar.

There are no Sun Dome Temples in Maniria.

Monrogh claims to have invented Yelmalio, or at least the scribe who wrote 'Making Gods' in King of Sartar claimed he did. This false claim is repeated in Jonstown Compendium #7517, which claims Monrogh's cult was exported to Tarsh, but the newest Sun Dome there, Ever-New-Glory was founded after the Lunar conquest of Saird, probably well before Monrogh had his visions.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I see Monrogh as instrumental in reforming the Sun Dome cult of Mo Baustra/Prax, based on his institutions at Vaantar/Vanntar (Sun Dome County in the former Kitori lands). Given the need to fight the Kitori, I see a distinct possibility that Monrogh re-discovered secrets of Daysenerus that were (possibly purposefully) forgotten by the Tharkantus cult of the Second Age. After all, Palangio the Iron Vrok conquered the Kitori, and probably established Vaantar to keep guard on the Obsidian Palace. Some of this may have been fed back to the existing sun dome temples. He certainly used his contact with the eastern wisdom that leaked into the Praxian Sun Dome and from personal exposure in Teshnos.

I see no sign of any significant reform in Sun County. Yelmalio was not forgotten, north or east of Sartar. I suspect that Monrogh had exposure to something, probably hazia.

It should be noted that Vanntar has a very different governance to Sun County: in Vanntar the roles of religious and secular leader are combined; in Sun County they are not. Vanntar is supported by helots (suspiciously named for the Dara Happan god of slaves); Sun County adheres to the older model of farmer-citizen-soldiers. These very distinct differences point to a distinct divergence, not convergence.

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