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M Helsdon

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Rewriting the Vingkotling history surely is getting way off-topic here.

I suggest each of us prepares a position paper and presents it in a separate thread. Right now there are more wild theories floating about than I am willing to handle.

 

Otherwise, the exchange is going to look like more of this:

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Has it ever occurred to you that the so-called daughters of Vingkot might be mere names backlformed by skalds from the Tribal Names to create a spurious connection to Vingkot? 

 

Has it ever occurred to you that both the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm aren't any better than the tribal myths of the first Heortling tribes?

Plentonius is a master of conjecture who has little more written sources than inscriptions of imperial names in masonry. Murharzarm is an invention of his, and Antirius is an invention of that street sweeper Avivath who sunspeared horse emperors with the power of Hastatus. The identification of the underworld star Tolat as a son of Yelm is an invention of his, replacing the green planet of Alkor. Plentonius has the Dawn in YS 11100, during the reign of Son of Evil, missing 100 years of History in his text.

I might be able to cram a few more more or less flawed pet theories into this...

Edited by Joerg
Hastatus, not Sagittus. Has to be the more phallic version of the stick with pointy object on the tip.
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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I suggest each of us prepares a position paper and presents it in a separate thread. Right now there are more wild theories floating about than I am willing to handle.

Prepare a paper?

I thought this was just a game, not an academic exercise.

 

Otherwise, the exchange is going to look like more of this:

 

But it usually ends up like this, with two people picking each other posts aparts, refuting opinion with opinion.

Has it ever occurred to you that both the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm aren't any better than the tribal myths of the first Heortling tribes?

The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is both historical and mythic, but I think is mostly useful.

The Entekosiad, on the other hand, is deeply suspect. It seems to be a paper on a Lunar HeroQuestor's attempt to prove something and everything is coloured by that attempt. It is interesting and challenging, but I would not want to say that anything in it is factual. I am sure that a lot of it is, but many of the conclusions drawn are very iffy indeed.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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5 hours ago, soltakss said:

...

Prepare a paper?

I thought this was just a game, not an academic exercise.

...

In fact reading some of the discussions in these forums I'm not so sure about that ... :) ... but anyway in most cases I admire the knowledge of some of the veteran Glorantha sages.

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17 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

Quote

Has it ever occurred to you that the so-called daughters of Vingkot might be mere names backlformed by skalds from the Tribal Names to create a spurious connection to Vingkot? 

Has it ever occurred to you that both the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm aren't any better than the tribal myths of the first Heortling tribes?

Um, yes as a matter of fact it has.  In the post that you were responding to, I actually wrote:  

Quote

 As pointed out before Urvarinus has been attributed to two epic deeds that belong to somebody else (Brightface and Daxdarius).  The myth of the Emperors of Dara Happa have been filtered through the unscrupulous hand of Plentonius.  Likewise the Good People of Alkoth have a actual myth in which Murharzarm banishes the Heortlings to the south, the (Horse) Nomads to the east and the Carmanians to the west (and the anachronisms are not errors)

All we can say is that in the Middle Storm Age the Dara Happans in their Septopoli peiod lost a city of Elempur to the Ram People, probably acting under the leadership of Varnaval.  An Iron Ram was involved, possibly as a battering ram to break down the walls of Elempur.  The Story of the making of the Army and the revenge exacted upon them has been attributed to Urvarinus.  Unless we were to see a myth of about how the Sons of Vingkot brought an Iron Ram to battle in their fight against Dara Happa, we can not attribute the destruction of Elempur to them.

It is my belief that all myths are of suspect historicity being warped by the attitudes and biases of their composers (Plentonius, Valare Addi, whoever composed the Vingkotling sagas etc) just as real world mythology is.  There are many things they do not understand (When did Vingkot die?  Who killed YarGan?  Who is buried in the Jewelled Vault?) and the wrong answers they interpolate to explain these discrepancies are glaringly clear signs that the myths are dubious history at best.

When the myths describe the events central to them (such as the raids of the Sons of Vingkot), they are at their strongest historically and at the same time, the discrepancies between them and the common understanding of that age are also the strongest (Where is Beren?  Why do none of Vingkot's daughters appear?).  Where the myths describe events that are ancillary to them (such as the description of Heort's ancestors in a myth about Heort's deeds), the material is filler and most closely harmonised to the orthodox wisdom not matter how erroneous that would be (Korol Kandoros is described as dying before Vingkot because the skald composing the mtyh thinks that Vingkot died fighting Wakboth at Stormfall which is well after Korol's death).

Your problem IMO is that you accept the Orlanthi myths as being of equal truthfulness in described an ideal Orlanthi culture and warp foreign myths into such strange contortions (Jorganos sacked Elempur) to conform with them.  Until you consider looking at the Orlanth in terms of, say, archeological change as Greg has done for Dara Happa and Pelanda, then your reconstructions will continue to be flawed.

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Soltakss said

Prepare a paper?

I thought this was just a game, not an academic exercise.

 I think you will find that the various games are in other sections (Runequest, Heroquest etc), whereas this is the Glorantha section, which is, when all is said and done, a continuation of Greg's anthropological academic exercise. 

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1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

 I think you will find that the various games are in other sections (Runequest, Heroquest etc), whereas this is the Glorantha section, which is, when all is said and done, a continuation of Greg's anthropological academic exercise. 

but ... ducks.

You are refuted.

By Humakti bearing the Truth rune, no less!

:D

C'es ne pas un .sig

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4 hours ago, g33k said:

but ... ducks.

Ah, but we have a perfectly good set of ancient debates in the Great Temple of Knowledge on the ancestry of Ducks! ;)

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd5/1997.08/0740.html

And not to forget Soltakss' various 'anthropological' ('anatopological'?) articles at: http://www.soltakss.com/indexmisc.html#Ducks

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3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Ah, but we have a perfectly good set of ancient debates in the Great Temple of Knowledge on the ancestry of Ducks! ;)

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd5/1997.08/0740.html

And not to forget Soltakss' various 'anthropological' ('anatopological'?) articles at: http://www.soltakss.com/indexmisc.html#Ducks

Indeed!

Nor can we forget these ducks (no matter how hard we try ... )   !

 

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9 hours ago, g33k said:

but ... ducks.

You are refuted.

By Humakti bearing the Truth rune, no less!

:D

The majestic Durulz are an example of a misunderstood race, despised and rejected for no other reason than speech pattern and external appearance difference.

Consider - a strange creature with flappy extremities, bizarre mode of speech, and a tendency to explosions of rage.  Ladies and gentlemen, I give you - the Donald!

Making Sartar great again.....

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

At the risk of igniting something very bad, there is a thread at rpg.net about rolplaying in Disney's Duckburg.

Am I the only person who envisions going into that thread with a Durulz + UplandMarsh POV, blithely assuming complete intercompatibility?

 

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  • 7 months later...
On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:43 PM, Steve said:

Wow. What are you planning on doing with this when it's done, Martin? Are you going to publish it?

And it's 'finished' at 288 pages.

Two draft hardbacks (with much marking up as it was my first opportunity to read it on paper) with two Chaosium staffers; my copy marked up; two draft copies in a box.

Bits and pieces may appear in the future. The entire thing? I suspect it wouldn't be commercially viable.

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11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Bits and pieces may appear in the future. The entire thing? I suspect it wouldn't be commercially viable.

I'm sure it would have viability as a PDF and print-on-demand item. Fingers crossed, and well done Martin.

 

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  • 5 months later...

Now 321 pages. (Of course most of the appendices could be chopped out). Some material may be appearing in the next Wyrms Footnotes.

Introduction......................................... 5

Warfare................................................ 6

Troop Types...................................... 7

Weapons and Armor......................... 9

Non-Human Weapons and Armor.... 35

Unit Organization............................ 36

Innovation...................................... 50

Regional Warfare................................ 52

Pelorian Warfare............................. 53

The Holy Country............................. 63

The Horse Nations........................... 65

Hsunchen Warfare........................... 68

Orlanthi Warfare............................. 68

Praxian Warfare.............................. 74

Other Facets of Warfare.................. 76

Tribute and Taxes............................ 85

The Battlefield.................................... 88

The Battleground............................ 88

Asymmetry..................................... 91

Articulation..................................... 91

Infantry........................................... 91

Cavalry.......................................... 102

Fliers............................................. 111

Chariots......................................... 112

Vexillae......................................... 117

Artillery......................................... 117

Magical.......................................... 118

War Dogs....................................... 119

Warships....................................... 119

Heroes.......................................... 124

Transport and Mobility...................... 125

The Campaign Year........................ 126

Roads and Warfare........................ 129

Water and Warfare........................ 135

Terrain.......................................... 137

Fortifications and Siege Warfare........ 142

Siege Weapons.............................. 142

History of Fortification................... 144

Fortifications................................. 145

Arcane Warfare................................. 159

Religion and Warfare..................... 162

Magical Warfare............................ 162

Gods of War...................................... 180

War Gods of the Lunar Empire........ 183

War Gods of Sartar and Heortland.. 189

War Gods of Esrolia........................ 192

War Gods and Spirits of Prax.......... 193

War Gods of the Horse Nations...... 194

Plates................................................ 196

Armies of Central Genertela.............. 205

Lunar Army.................................... 205

Sartar Free Army............................ 221

Independents................................ 226

Hero Wars Army Lists......................... 239

Lunar Army List.............................. 240

Sartar Free Army List...................... 259

Independents List.......................... 268

Appendices....................................... 284

Beasts of War................................ 284

Temples and Towers...................... 286

Fazzur Wideread............................ 294

The Seshnelan Army...................... 298

Weapon Use.................................. 300

Figures for Gloranthan Armies....... 301

Phalanx Commands....................... 302

Equivalent Military Ranks.............. 303

Index................................................ 307

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  • 2 years later...
  • 10 months later...
On 6/13/2016 at 2:09 PM, metcalph said:

The Byzantines (whom MOB borrowed for their political stories which he then pumped full of steriods for use in Sun County) had a Patriarch and an Emperor who belonged to the same faith.  There was serious political rivalry there.  

The absence of the High Priests list proves my point.  The High Priests are more august than the Counts and so should be reckoned as the real heads of state in Sun County.  Despite this, the kids are *not* being taught their names.  My feeling as to why there is no list is that many of the High Priests were declared of damnable memory and expunged from the record.  People can only get a hint of what might have happened through additions to the lists of Prohibitions over time (5th edition No smoking Hazia!  No wearing Red!  No multiple marriages!)

LOL you forgot "No cross-dressing".

This Temporal/Spiritual political dichotomy is repeated in many places IRL history and has been responsible for the ultimate separation of Church and State in a great many countries.

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