The Riddle Maze of Elder Wisdom. Draconic Illumination vs Nysalori Illumination

[Darius West]

So the question is this... what is the difference between Draconic illumination and Nysalori Illumination ?  Clearly the Dragonewts were present at the Broken Council and were cursed by Nysalor just like the trolls (though a true dragon rose and devoured the curse).  It is also true that Nysalor was birthed from a "cosmic egg" or "Omphalos" just like a dragon deity.  It is also pretty clear that in Kralorela, the two paths seem to merge apparently pretty seamlessly.  On the other hand, there can be no doubt that they are NOT the same.

Clearly Nysalor didn't teach his followers how to transform into wyrms (that was a second age fad) or sprout claws and scales, in fact he was probably more tentacle oriented because:

"It matters nothing that we fight here today on the side of order, and that Ralzakark and his hordes fight for chaos, for if we all willed it in reverse, so then we would fight in each others' place." - Krishna. Bhagavad Gita.

We can also see that in the destruction of the Red Moon by the True Dragons that this is a Draconic HeroQuest of transformation via a playing out of the Sacred Utuma Ritual.  Such a thing would not be necessary if the Red Goddess' illumination were perfect.

So should we see Nysalor as being essentially a false illumination?  Is that why Arkat, the shadow of Nysalor, came to pull down the Bright Empire.  Is that why Argrath, the shadow of Rufelza, comes to pull down the Moon?  It is quite possible to see in Arkat the perfect counter argument to Nysalor's philosophy and it's moral and cultural relativism.  So too one can see in Argrathsaga, that Argrath is the same philosophical counter argument to the Lunar way.

"Fight not against monsters lest ye become a monster, and know when you stare into the abyss that the abyss stares also into you."

- Eliot Ness. The Untouchables.

The path of the True Dragon is not to surrender to Orxili (chaos?) but to defeat, reform, educate, and reconcile Orxili back into the cosmic unity (I assume).  And yet Orxili never seems to be destroyed any more than the True Dragon is destroyed?  In fact, Crested Dragonewts are called Orxili.  Is the entire process some sort of elaborate draconic mating ritual conducted every 600 years to replenish the eggs?  There is no evidence to support it, but perhaps the ritual is not complete and the new eggs are going to be laid soon?

"Every six hundred years you have come..." - Michel de Nostradame. The Quatrains.

Now throw into the mix the various forms of mysticism and renunciate paths in Glorantha, and even the Orange Schools of the Vadeli and we have some very blurred lines.  It seems that the Dragonewt path is one of mystical renunciation, and that is why they go backwards when they prematurely manifest their draconic powers.  This is why the path of Immanent Mastery is a heresy; if your aim is to become a true dragon illuminate, then Immanent Mastery is the exact and deliberate opposite of that.  Effectively the transformations are not building draconic power but dissipating it frivolously.

Is the renunciate path of the Invisible God the same path?  Is this what the monomyth is pointing towards?

White chocolate is neither white not chocolate.  Discuss.

 

[metcalph]

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So the question is this... what is the difference between Draconic illumination and Nysalori Illumination? 

HeroQuest: Glorantha calls Draconic wisdom illumination as a shorthand for possession of the infinity rune.  They are the same thing or completely different things depending on how you look at it (or more importanly whether you want an argument or not).  

There's really only two effects that we need to concern ourselves: 1) what the illuminate says about his wisdom and 2) what an observer says about the illuminate.  In terms of what the illuminate says, draconic wisdom and nysaloran illumination are different as orthodox hesychasm and zen koans.  In terms of what the observer says, the draconist and the illuminate can do very similar things through their transcedental knowledge.

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Clearly the Dragonewts were present at the Broken Council and were cursed by Nysalor just like the trolls (though a true dragon rose and devoured the curse).  It is also true that Nysalor was birthed from a "cosmic egg" or "Omphalos" just like a dragon deity.  It is also pretty clear that in Kralorela, the two paths seem to merge apparently pretty seamlessly.  On the other hand, there can be no doubt that they are NOT the same.

Nysalor did not invent Illumination - Yelm did when he was killed.  According to the Dara Happans, Nysalor is an emanation of Yelm to bear the truths of illumination to mankind.

The cosmic egg is not unique to draconism.  For example, it appears in Orlanthi mythology as the source of everything.

The status of illuminated wisdom in Kralorela may be many things but I think it too much to claim it as seamlessly.  There are the Seventeen Lessons to Perfection that were taught by Osdero, criticized by NiangMao.  NiangMao's own teachings weere put into place by Shavaya who was then confounded by Sekever.  FInally we have the teachings of Daruda, the rusticism of which would be quite alarming to the adherents of both NiangMao and Metsyla.  Plus you have the snobs from the Eastern Isles who deride the Kralori as degenerate dragon worshippers.

 

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

We can also see that in the destruction of the Red Moon by the True Dragons that this is a Draconic HeroQuest of transformation via a playing out of the Sacred Utuma Ritual.  Such a thing would not be necessary if the Red Goddess' illumination were perfect.

There's a difference between the Red Goddess's illumination (which is perfect) and mortal understanding of it (which is represented by the Red Moon and is thus demonstrably imperfect).  When mortals understand the Moon then it will be white.  

 

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So should we see Nysalor as being essentially a false illumination? 

There is nothing wrong with Nysalor or his illumination.  That he was slain by Arkat speaks more about Arkat than it does Nysalor.

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The path of the True Dragon is not to surrender to Orxili (chaos?) but to defeat, reform, educate, and reconcile Orxili back into the cosmic unity (I assume).  And yet Orxili never seems to be destroyed any more than the True Dragon is destroyed? 

Orxili is the observable world.  

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In fact, Crested Dragonewts are called Orxili. 

They are?

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

White chocolate is neither white not chocolate.  Discuss.

 

But it tastes good.  What else is there to discuss?

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

But it tastes good.  What else is there to discuss?

That it's an illusion of the White Moon and doesn't taste good! ;-)

[M Helsdon]

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

So the question is this... what is the difference between Draconic illumination and Nysalori Illumination ?  Clearly the Dragonewts were present at the Broken Council and were cursed by Nysalor just like the trolls (though a true dragon rose and devoured the curse).  It is also true that Nysalor was birthed from a "cosmic egg" or "Omphalos" just like a dragon deity.  It is also pretty clear that in Kralorela, the two paths seem to merge apparently pretty seamlessly.  On the other hand, there can be no doubt that they are NOT the same.

The Dragons ate the curse aimed at the dragonewts and negated it. The trolls weren't so lucky.

I suspect that the paths only look similar if you know little about them as both are a form of mysticism, but not the same form of mysticism.

Imagine a dragon's claw tapping a mirror, on the far side...

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

We can also see that in the destruction of the Red Moon by the True Dragons that this is a Draconic HeroQuest of transformation via a playing out of the Sacred Utuma Ritual.  Such a thing would not be necessary if the Red Goddess' illumination were perfect.

True Dragons get really riled when someone threatens their nest site. And Dragon Pass has two meanings...

First a Dragon sees off the Crimson Bat at Boldhome, then one wakes up when a temple is activated above it, then the dragon's initiate their long term plan using the vehicle of a human hero to further their plans, permitting the reuse of the EWF Battle Banner and draconic mysticism, and finally they claw chunks out of the Red Moon to enable its liberation into its true form.

It's all draconic drama; the human wars in Dragon Pass are just a lesser performance.

When the Seven Mothers reenacted the Lightbringer's Quest in a feminine mode to reconstruct a lost goddess, perhaps it didn't quite turn out as planned and the goddess returned tainted with Chaos. As true balance may have been their intent, they may have wanted Law balanced by Disorder, but they got Law balanced with Chaos instead. And whilst the Lunar Way has been successful, it has also overreached, seriously damaging the Compromise, and threatening the existence of Glorantha as Chaos always does.

In response the dragons have unleashed a long laid plan, for they think in the long term, gradually unwinding, to preserve their children.

Dare you look a True Dragon in the eye?

Edited September 23, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Ian Cooper]

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

So the question is this... what is the difference between Draconic illumination and Nysalori Illumination ? 

All Illumination is the experience of the All. Witnessing the All is likely to drive you insane if you are not prepared. Schools of Illumination prepare the initiate for the experience of the All and help them interpret it afterwards. The difference then between Nysaloran, Draconic, Lunar and other mystical traditions (such as the Larnstings) is the teachings they may give their novices prior to the initiation and the resulting intepretation of the event afterwards. For example a Nysaloran illuminate may join multiple cults, learn their secrets, and find insights from that shared perspective, but a draconic illuminate may re-intepret their existing cults myths as holding draconic mysteries that if studied allow them to develop draconic magic.

So, both are experiences of the all. But they have different ways of preparing for and interpreting that experience.

[Darius West]

Why oh why may I only distribute 10 likes per day?

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why oh why may I only distribute 10 likes per day?

The real reason the Dragonewts got mad about the God Project and left.

[MOB]

On 9/24/2016 at 6:59 AM, Ian Cooper said:

For example a Nysaloran illuminate may join multiple cults, learn their secrets, and find insights from that shared perspective, but a draconic illuminate may re-intepret their existing cults myths as holding draconic mysteries that if studied allow them to develop draconic magic.

That is exactly what has happened in Sun County (Prax)... once in the past, and currently.

[Pentallion]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

That is exactly what has happened in Sun County (Prax)... once in the past, and currently.

Please explain more MOB.  I knew that the Sun Domers of Prax first came to the region from Teshnos, seeking the Red Sword of Talot, but I'd never heard anything about them becoming draconized.  Is that what changed them and turned them into the people's they are today?  And how are they being currently draconized?

Edited September 25, 2016 by Pentallion

[soltakss]

On 9/23/2016 at 8:20 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Dragons ate the curse aimed at the dragonewts and negated it. The trolls weren't so lucky.

The dragonewts were enslaved by Nyslaor as a result of this, I think, but were only released when the Inhuman King performed Utuma, unless I am remembering things wrongly. So, the Dragonewt Curse had some effect, just not the same as the trolls.

[MOB]

10 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Please explain more MOB.  I knew that the Sun Domers of Prax first came to the region from Teshnos, seeking the Red Sword of Talot, but I'd never heard anything about them becoming draconized.  Is that what changed them and turned them into the people's they are today?  And how are they being currently draconized?

The Sun Domers of Prax didn't come from Teshnos, though they sent an expedition there later.

They worshipped dragons along with everyone else in the EWF period, and were part of the Invincible Golden Horde that turned against the dragons in the end. They threw off the draconic elements of their sun worship in the aftermath of the Dragonkill War, burning and abandoning their old temple (this is all described in The Old Sun Dome scenario, in RQ3's SUN COUNTY).

In recent years, the Light Priest Daystar's researches in the Old Sun Dome revealed important secrets about the suppressed Sun Dragon cult, though the count banished him to a lightless vault in the salt mines for his troubles*. Meanwhile, on his travels the Nysalor Illuminate Belvani picks up a strange dragonewt servant.

In the aftermath of the Second Battle of Moonbroth (1624), Belvani immediately declares himself the new count, announces an alliance with Argrath Dragonfriend and the resumption of Sun Dragon worship. This is bitterly resisted by the Guardian of Sun County, the Light Lady Vega Goldbreath, who declares herself count(ess), following the unsullied and pure light of Yelmalio. Cue religious civil strife. 

* given what they knew about draconic rebirth, it was considered too risky to actually execute Daystar

Edited September 26, 2016 by MOB

[MOB]

BTW, Sun County's "retirement towers" and the great spear-casting machine at Harpoon originally had another purpose - from The Dragonrise bit of the as-yet unpublished Future History of Sun County document:

The Dragonrise

Any plans by Countess Vega to capitalize on the situation were quickly overtaken by momentous events, again from distant Dragon Pass. The Dragonrise was an epic event seen across the world, causing mass panic, fear, wonder and awe. From his vantage point in the temple library, Hector the Wise surmised something significant was about to happen when he observed the stars moving in unexpected ways that fateful night in Earth season, 1625. But even he was not prepared for the incredible sight of a truly immense True Dragon, obviously many miles long, rising out of the distant mountains the following day.

Unknown to everyone in Prax, in a catastrophic blow for the Lunar Empire the great Brown Dragon had just destroyed the new temple of the Reaching Moon, devouring most of the Lunar army, and many of the Emperor’s most important priests and officials. Great rumbling shock waves attested to the dragon’s stupendous power. As one rippled its way across the plains it toppled one of the retirement towers next to the great Sun Dome. Although the damage to the temple was slight, the unfortunate hermit inside the tower (the suspected Lunar collaborator Laertes Coatilon) was killed, and wild stories began to spread that the Sun Dome Temple itself had been destroyed.

Safeguarding the County

As the panic rose, the countess put her forces on high alert. Fortunately new arrows for the spear-throwing machine at Harpoon were to hand, having been made from the many tree trunks washed down in the Great Flood. Vega ordered it to be loaded and the targeteers to be vigilant.

Few remembered the Great Ballista’s original purpose was to protect against dragons. It had been built in great fear after the Dragonkill War, when the people of the Sun Dome tore down their old temple, purged themselves of any vestiges of EWF-inspired solar draconism and returned to the unsullied, pure light of Yelmalio. The weapon originally protected the new Sun Dome Temple, but when draconic retribution never came, it was later moved to the high bluffs above the river near the village that now bears its name.

Vega realized no one now had the means or expertise to move the harpoon back to the Sun Dome. But she was able to revive another old custom – along with the Great Ballista, a network of Dragonward towers had been built across the county in the aftermath of the Dragonkill War. Like the Arm of Pavis in the Rubble, these watchtowers once provided aerial defense and also served as heliograph stations. As fear of the dragons waned, and the prosperity of Sun County declined, the expense of maintaining the Dragonwardens weighed heavily. The network of towers was slowly dismantled, and their garrisons were reassigned. The mirrors were placed in the temple treasury, and the internal timbers reused elsewhere. Some towers were demolished. Most were left as shells. Retiring priests took to using them as hermitages, and with their original purpose almost forgotten they became known only as ‘retirement towers’.

To assure the people, the countess announced she was reinstating the Dragonwardens. New great mirrors would be fitted to the towers, or at least those in a fit enough condition (little heed was given to the peace and solitude of any hermits within). Sadly, long ago the Count known as Orogurri the Bison loved drink more than ceremony and had melted down all the great mirrors in the treasury to make gold cups for his warriors. To replace them, Vega organized a great requisition drive to collect gold and other metal items from across the county, gathering a huge quantity from the panicked people.

Revived Energies

The great dragon continued to fly in great spirals around Dragon Pass, circling Kero Fin and obscuring the Red Moon. As it did so, strange draconic energies revived that had been quiet since the days of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends.

In Prax, the Old Sun Dome temple again became a true place of power, and its once-cracked dome now glistened as if covered in scales...

Edited September 26, 2016 by MOB

[Darius West]

Wow MOB! Who'd have thought it?  I swear you wander past these things all your adventuring career and never notice it.  Did Rurik know?

[MOB]

On 9/26/2016 at 9:41 PM, Darius West said:

Wow MOB! Who'd have thought it?  I swear you wander past these things all your adventuring career and never notice it.  Did Rurik know?

The scaly old Sun Dome doesn't happen until Earth season 1625, a consequence of the Dragonrise (other goofy draconic stuff happens up in Pavis too). 

As one of Argrath Whitebull's Companions, Rurik Runespear makes several cameo appearances in the future history of Sun County... here's his first appearance (Storm season 1624):

The Fall of New Pavis

Several days after their victory at Second Moonbroth the nomads arrived at New Pavis, immediately laying siege. The Sun Dome contingent appeared too, silently watching from the other side of the river (though vrok hawks were seen to pass back and forth from the Suntown enclave inside the city).

Pavis’s defenses had been stiffened by the fabled Watchdog, brought up by the Lunars from Corflu. But on the very first morning it was destroyed by a gigantic golden wyrm that suddenly swooped in from the west. At this, the Sun Domers marched off downriver, and the wyrm was seen flying into the Rubble.

The siege was finally broken a week later and the nomads poured into the city, intent on destruction, bloodshed and plunder. This was when the great wyrm appeared again, this time with a golden warrior perched on its back. The wyrm curled itself around the Sun Dome temple in Suntown. Its presence helped spare that quarter of the city from excessive violence or damage, although it tore the roof off the fortified Lunar headquarters (formerly the palace of count Varthanis) to root out those taking refuge inside.

The golden warrior was none other than Rurik Runespear, the famous Light Son of Pavis. After his mysterious disappearance at the time of the Cradle three years ago he had been grieved as dead. Unknown to the Sun Dome authorities, he’d instead been one of the heroic defenders of the Cradle and then became one of Argrath’s boon companions, sharing incredible adventures across the world. Leading a mixed band of nomads and Suntowners, Rurik led the charge into the Lunar Headquarters. He personally killed the hated governor Halcyon var Enkorth, who he found hiding in a privy.

[GM Note: The resourceful Halcyon cunningly switched clothes with a flunky just before the assault, and it was actually the luckless double’s head that got paraded around afterwards, not his. He managed to flee the city and eventually make his way back to the Empire, along with Marusa. Rumor has it they were also both among the very few survivors of the Dragonrise.]