Weapon Damage Modified By Skill Level

[olskool]

On 4/13/2017 at 6:51 PM, Atgxtg said:

I did just that in another thread. Basically you use the 10s digit as the damage and the 1s digit as the hit location. It's not all that complicated. But I do think the base chances have to be a bit higher for it to work. 

 

Does TSR(Wizards of the Coast?) know you're ripping off Top Secret SI?

[Atgxtg]

15 hours ago, olskool said:

Does TSR(Wizards of the Coast?) know you're ripping off Top Secret SI?

LOL! That is where I got the basic idea. Where I departed was that instead of just using it for unarmed combat, I allow it to handle any weapon. Instead of rolling a random die on a hit based on the weapon (1d6, 1d8, 1d10 etc.), the weapon gives a modifier to the final damage. So a weapon that might have done 1d10 would get a +1 modifier to the damage. 

I also expanded upon the idea to handle stuff other than combat. For instance, is someone was piloting a vehicle, the EFFECT points generated would be used to "pay" for turns and other maneuvers. If crafting or repairing something  (mundane or magical) the EFFECT generated could be kept as a running total against a target number. Once enough effect has been generated the item is completed. 

[olskool]

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

LOL! That is where I got the basic idea. Where I departed was that instead of just using it for unarmed combat, I allow it to handle any weapon. Instead of rolling a random die on a hit based on the weapon (1d6, 1d8, 1d10 etc.), the weapon gives a modifier to the final damage. So a weapon that might have done 1d10 would get a +1 modifier to the damage. 

I also expanded upon the idea to handle stuff other than combat. For instance, is someone was piloting a vehicle, the EFFECT points generated would be used to "pay" for turns and other maneuvers. If crafting or repairing something  (mundane or magical) the EFFECT generated could be kept as a running total against a target number. Once enough effect has been generated the item is completed. 

 

It's still a good idea.

[Darius West]

On 4/1/2017 at 2:41 PM, olskool said:

I've been kicking around the idea of allowing a character to modify his damage by his skill level.  I have already taken steps to adjust STR Damage bonuses to a more realistic standard (starting with a +1/-1 Damage and based on surplus STR after subtracting the STR a given weapon requires to even wield instead of total STR) but I have had a discussion (in another forum) about how much skill affects the damage a weapon can do.  

The idea I'm toying with is... "for every 10 FULL points the Attacker rolls under his or her needed target number (to hit), they may add 1 point to the Damage Roll.  This CANNOT push the damage higher than a normally rolled MAXIMUM damage roll would inflict (in other words, if a weapon does 1D6, the maximum damage would still be 6). It does NOT apply to a Special Success (critical or crush/impale/slash) either."     

This will be my first attempt at such a house rule so I figured I'd ask the forum if any of you had tried something like this yet.  It's not a major issue, just something I'm thinking of trying out.   I just don't need The Law Of Unintended Consequences rearing its ugly head in the middle of a gaming session (especially if someone here has already dealt with it). 

It might also be worth increasing parry armour of shields and weapons based on a similar calculation to damage?  The other thing is, that your standing calculation doesn't factor in damage bonus, for example, a broadsword does 1d8+1, but many characters will have a 1d4 damage bonus for a damage range of 3-13.  As an alternative, you might consider reducing Strike Rank at a trade off of 20% for 1 SR.

As for the Law of Unintended Consequences, if you fear it, then do away with specials and criticals altogether.

[soltakss]

On 4/18/2017 at 2:19 AM, olskool said:

Crush:  This does MAX weapon damage plus I am allowing it to do 2 X MAX STR Bonus damage (ie. a 1d2 STR Bonus will do 4 points).  This hits the limit for the skill modifier automatically (because skill based damage cannot exceed MAX rolled Damage).  Thus you can ignore it.

Impale: This does MAX weapon damage plus ROLLED weapon damage (including STR bonus on the roll only) for up to 2 times damage.  Since the weapon does MAX damage initially, this hits the limit on skill based damage (which cannot increase damage beyond MAX rolled damage).  Thus you can ignore it.  

Slash: This does ROLLED damage TWICE plus any STR Bonus.  The Skill modifier COULD have an effect here if the player rolls a bad Damage Roll.

Critical Hit:  This does either the weapon's MAX damage while ignoring armor or 2 x MAX Damage in lieu of ignoring armor at the attacker's option.  This would include the skill modifier in either choice.

My Great Troll with his Troll Maul LOVES you! 2D8+3D6 becomes 16+36=52 damage on a Crush! Yeehah!

[olskool]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

My Great Troll with his Troll Maul LOVES you! 2D8+3D6 becomes 16+36=52 damage on a Crush! Yeehah!

I bet he wouldn't love me as much if he was a part of my campaign.   A maul does 1D10+2 under my house rules.  Here is my Damage Bonus Chart made in (gulps) 1986...  

Average of SIZ/STR:    Damage Bonus:                        Average of SIZ/STR:     Damage Bonus:

1 - 2                                   -1D4                                      25 - 28                                +1D8 

3 - 4                                   -1D3                                      29 - 32                                +1D10

5 - 6                                   -1D2                                      33 - 36                                +1D12

7 - 8                                    -1                                          37 - 44                                +2D8

9 - 12                                 No Bonus                               55 - 62                               +2D10 

13 - 14                                +1                                          63 - 70                               +2D12

15 - 16                                +1D2                                      71 - 80                              +3D10

17 - 18                                +1D3                                      81 - 90                              +4D10

19 - 20                                +1D4                                      91 - 100                            +5D10

21 - 22                                +1D5                                      101 +                                +6D10

23 - 24                                +1D6                                     

 

So your Troll with a 28 STR/SIZ average would do +1D8 in bonus damage.  His Crush Damage would be 12 (for the Maul) + 8 (STR Bonus) + 8 (STR Bonus) equaling 28 points of Damage in total.  He would also Stun Location and since I use Fantasy Hero's STUN Damage system, he would do 3 X (the maul's STUN Multiplier) 28 (the Damage) or 84 points of STUN Damage (which would TKO most foes).  He would also do Knockback... applying that 28 points of damage against the average of his foe's SIZ, STR, and DEX (how I figure Knockdown).  This means most foes would be knocked back 2 meters on average.  An impressive hit, even with my reduced weapon damages.  And since the heaviest armor you can buy in my game is Heavy Plate (10 to 12 gauge in thickness) at AP 10, that Troll is going to crush his foe like a tin can. 

 

 

[olskool]

22 hours ago, Darius West said:

It might also be worth increasing parry armour of shields and weapons based on a similar calculation to damage?  The other thing is, that your standing calculation doesn't factor in damage bonus, for example, a broadsword does 1d8+1, but many characters will have a 1d4 damage bonus for a damage range of 3-13.  As an alternative, you might consider reducing Strike Rank at a trade off of 20% for 1 SR.

As for the Law of Unintended Consequences, if you fear it, then do away with specials and criticals altogether.

 

 

 

I actually am considering this for play.  I use a modified version of MRQ1's AP and HP for weapons in my game.  So a dagger has Dam 1D4 and 3AP/20HP while a Knife (of the same length) would have Damage 1D4 BUT  2AP and only 10HP (due to its lighter construction).  A Broadsword is Dam 1D8 and 8AP/20HP, while an unreinforced wooden shield would have 4AP & 8HP.   I would limit the Skill add to 2 X the weapon's AP. 

Maximum damage ALWAYS includes STR bonuses in my games.  I just don't allow either the ridiculously high weapon damages or STR/SIZ bonuses that most editions of Runequest put forth.  That was one of the first things I changed when I started GMing.  High damage is almost as "game breaking" as plentiful magic.  Runequest was the first game of the genre that had minimum stats (STR, DEX, SIZ) for weapons.  This is a great idea! Otherwise, you end up with everyone carrying Greatswords to maximize their damage.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by olskool

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, olskool said:

So your Troll with a 28 STR/SIZ average would do +1D8 in bonus damage.  His Crush Damage would be 12 (for the Maul) + 8 (STR Bonus) + 8 (STR Bonus) equaling 28 points of Damage in total.  He would also Stun Location and since I use Fantasy Hero's STUN Damage system, he would do 3 X (the maul's STUN Multiplier) 28 (the Damage) or 84 points of STUN Damage (which would TKO most foes).  He would also do Knockback... applying that 28 points of damage against the average of his foe's SIZ, STR, and DEX (how I figure Knockdown).  This means most foes would be knocked back 2 meters on average.  An impressive hit, even with my reduced weapon damages.  And since the heaviest armor you can buy in my game is Heavy Plate (10 to 12 gauge in thickness) at AP 10, that Troll is going to crush his foe like a tin can. 

As another thought, there was a game called Aftermath that used an alternative system for muscle powered weapons, where weapons acted as a multiplier on damage, but effectively "damage bonus" was what did the damage.  This is more realistic in many ways.

Average of SIZ/STR:       Base Damage:                        Average of SIZ/STR:      Base Damage:

1 - 2                                   1d3-1                                      25 - 28                                3d6 

3 - 4                                      1                                          29 - 32                                2d10

5 - 6                                   1D2                                         33 - 36                                1d10+1D12

7 - 8                                    1d3                                        37 - 44                                2d12

9 - 12                                 1d4                                         55 - 62                                3d8 

13 - 14                                1d6                                        63 - 70                                2d10+1d6

15 - 16                                1D8                                        71 - 80                               2d12+1d4

17 - 18                                1D10                                      81 - 90                               3d10

19 - 20                                1D12                                      91 - 100                             4d8

21 - 22                                1d10+1d4                               101 +                                3d10+1d4

23 - 24                                 2d8                     

But then you have weapon damage:  (Fist, Head Butt, Whip) = x1/3, (Kick) = x1/2, (Dagger, Club, Sling) = x1, Spear, Shortsword, Self Bow=x1.5, Broadsword, War axe, Mace, 2h Long Spear, Composite Bow=x2, Bastard Sword, Katana, Great Axe, Pike, Glaive, Lance, Longbow= 2.5,  Pole axe, halberd, zweihander, No-Dachi, Maul =x3.

If the damage seems high (it is a bit compared to the normal system), that is easily fixed.  HP=SIZ+CON.  Double the AP value of all armor.

One day when I am rich enough and have the time, I would like to drag out all the materials science books, physics books, cameras and instruments and "mythbust" a combat system from actual tested physical principles and come up with an objective scientific measurement of what constitutes an AP and a point of damage etc.  While I am sure weapon system designers have something already in place, I don't think they have retrofitted it for antique weapons.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

As another thought, there was a game called Aftermath that used an alternative system for muscle powered weapons, where weapons acted as a multiplier on damage, but effectively "damage bonus" was what did the damage.  This is more realistic in many ways.

If we are going to swipe from Aftermath! then we should take the Presented and Reposed Hit Location tables too. They would make a lot of sense for RQ.

 

As far as the Aftermath approach of damage multiplier, that's basically how Pendragon works.  This could be greatly simplified in RQ by having the db adjust the damage die up/down rungs on the "ladder". For example, instead of someone getting a +1d4 db, they could up a sword's damage from 1d8+1 to 1D10+1 or even 2D6+1. With the way SIZ and STR work in RQQ, this is basically a multiplier. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Atgxtg

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

If we are going to swipe from Aftermath! then we should take the Presented and Reposed Hit Location tables too. They would make a lot of sense for RQ.

 

As far as the Aftermath approach of damage multiplier, that's basically how Pendragon works.  This could be greatly simplified in RQ by having the db adjust the damage die up/down rungs on the "ladder". For example, instead of someone getting a +1d4 db, they could up a sword's damage from 1d8+1 to 1D10+1 or even 2D6+1. With the way SIZ and STR work in RQQ, this is basically a multiplier. 

Always liked Aftermath's approach to combat, but way too detailed and simulationist for today's RPG market.

I've always thought that if one were rewriting a combat system, it would be STR that does the damage (STR applicable being capped by the weapon size, for melee weapons and also capped by attacker's SIZ for melee weapons), and then converted to cutting/stabbing damage by the weapon, as appropriate.

Attacker starts with 100% chance to hit,

reduced by the target's (DEXx5, less the sum total physical non-natural AP on the target) - thus an avg dex toon (11) wearing 8pts of armor everywhere isn't getting any inherent avoidance benefit from dex 

increased by attacker's skill.  

Defender can also apply their own dodge as a further minus to the attacker's chance, but this % also comes off the defender's attack roll(s) as well that round.

Max damage for blunt/cutting is 2x the location's hp.  Max damage for thrusting is 1x location hp.

Any damage to body hp is resisted (cumulatively, with a new roll when new damage occurs) vs CON on the resistance table....fail means target can ignore pain and keep functioning normally.  

Depending on location of strike: (All presuming the location itself isn't anyway incapacitated by the damage)

Limb/Abd: Success means that location stunned for that round (no action), Special: stunned for that round (no action) target has init penalty in subsequent rounds = damage done on that strike, Crit: limb disabled.  

Chest/Head: Success means stun for that round (no action) target has init penalty in subsequent rounds = damage done on that strike, Special: incapacitated, Crit: death.

[Atgxtg]

I was thinking of using a modified Pendragon approach. Basically you get a damage stat based on STR and SIZ, based on using that old die progression ladder from Elric (d2/d4/d6/d8/d10, etc.). Then getting a die shift modifier for the weapon used. 

[g33k]

Or just make EVERYTHING shifts-up-the-ladder.

4 shifts for STR, 1 shift for SIZ, 3 shifts for the axe ...

+1 shift for an advantageous attack position, +1 shift for Bladesharp-1

etc etc etc

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by g33k
or shifts down the ladder: -1 shift for STR 7, FrEx, or -1 shift for a plank instead of a mace

[olskool]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

 One day when I am rich enough and have the time, I would like to drag out all the materials science books, physics books, cameras and instruments and "mythbust" a combat system from actual tested physical principles and come up with an objective scientific measurement of what constitutes an AP and a point of damage etc.  While I am sure weapon system designers have something already in place, I don't think they have retrofitted it for antique weapons.

1

I always wanted to match weapons to a Kinetic Energy Chart to see just how much damage they really would do.  I'd start with the Ethical Hunting Power Chart developed for Projectile Weapons like Atlatls, Bows, and Crossbows but expand it to include hand weapons.  The Chart is fairly simple and is based on the Kinetic Energy needed to "cleanly harvest" a given type of animal.  This would give a good "reference point" for how damaging a weapon would be.  The Chart looks like this:

25 ft-lbs or Less = Smaller Game like Coyotes and Varmints.

25 ft-lbs to 41 ft-lbs = Medium Game like Deer, Antelope, (and Humans fall here too).

42 ft-lbs to 65 ft-lbs = Large Game like Black Bear, Elk or Moose.

65 ft-lbs to 85 ft-lbs = Big Game like Cape Buffalo, and Grizzly Bear. 

85 ft-lbs + = Very Dangerous Game such as Hippos or Rhinos.

I think it would be interesting to set up a chart with Kinetic Energies from 1 ft-lb up to 100 ft-lb and match the entries on this chart to various damage dice.  You would then "compute" the Kinetic Energy for hand weapons based on the "swing speed" of 20 m/sec that many weapons experts claim as a standard velocity for HTH weapons.  This velocity would equate to a 10 STR.  I would bet that a 5 STR would still have about 75% of the standard velocity (or around 15m/sec of velocity) and a 20 STR would have a velocity of around 30 m/sec.  This would be an interesting start to a "reality-based" damage chart.  You can even fold firearms into the chart by dividing their Energy by 20 and comparing them to the chart.  Someday I might even get the time to set this chart up.  

[Jon Hunter]

On 4/20/2017 at 1:45 AM, olskool said:

I bet he wouldn't love me as much if he was a part of my campaign.   A maul does 1D10+2 under my house rules.  Here is my Damage Bonus Chart made in (gulps) 1986...  

Average of SIZ/STR:    Damage Bonus:                        Average of SIZ/STR:     Damage Bonus:

1 - 2                                   -1D4                                      25 - 28                                +1D8 

3 - 4                                   -1D3                                      29 - 32                                +1D10

5 - 6                                   -1D2                                      33 - 36                                +1D12

7 - 8                                    -1                                          37 - 44                                +2D8

9 - 12                                 No Bonus                               55 - 62                               +2D10 

13 - 14                                +1                                          63 - 70                               +2D12

15 - 16                                +1D2                                      71 - 80                              +3D10

17 - 18                                +1D3                                      81 - 90                              +4D10

19 - 20                                +1D4                                      91 - 100                            +5D10

21 - 22                                +1D5                                      101 +                                +6D10

23 - 24                                +1D6                                     

 

So your Troll with a 28 STR/SIZ average would do +1D8 in bonus damage.  His Crush Damage would be 12 (for the Maul) + 8 (STR Bonus) + 8 (STR Bonus) equaling 28 points of Damage in total.  He would also Stun Location and since I use Fantasy Hero's STUN Damage system, he would do 3 X (the maul's STUN Multiplier) 28 (the Damage) or 84 points of STUN Damage (which would TKO most foes).  He would also do Knockback... applying that 28 points of damage against the average of his foe's SIZ, STR, and DEX (how I figure Knockdown).  This means most foes would be knocked back 2 meters on average.  An impressive hit, even with my reduced weapon damages.  And since the heaviest armor you can buy in my game is Heavy Plate (10 to 12 gauge in thickness) at AP 10, that Troll is going to crush his foe like a tin can. 

 

 

Im guessing each round takes a while, but combats aren't that long, rounds wise

[olskool]

3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Im guessing each round takes a while, but combats aren't that long, rounds wise

They aren't any longer than any other game. I did have a very experienced group that I GMed, though. The RQ6 game that I played in was a bit faster but between the "gamesmanship" involved with the effects and the fact that everyone was using the largest weapons they could (to maximise damage), it wasn't very fun or realistic. EVERY BLOW was a incapacitation in RQ6.  As a combat veteran (restore hope) and a cop of 20 years, I can tell you real fights aren't that fast or clean. 

[Darius West]

On 4/21/2017 at 1:33 AM, Atgxtg said:

If we are going to swipe from Aftermath! then we should take the Presented and Reposed Hit Location tables too. They would make a lot of sense for RQ.

I could see value in that.  It does complicate combat, but not much.

On 4/21/2017 at 5:06 AM, Atgxtg said:

I was thinking of using a modified Pendragon approach. Basically you get a damage stat based on STR and SIZ, based on using that old die progression ladder from Elric (d2/d4/d6/d8/d10, etc.). Then getting a die shift modifier for the weapon used. 

This is a pretty good idea, certainly simple.

On 4/21/2017 at 1:33 AM, Atgxtg said:

As far as the Aftermath approach of damage multiplier, that's basically how Pendragon works.  

Is it though ?  I thought Pendragon gives you base damage die, perhaps +/- 1 die based on weapon, and more if it is a couched lance.  Aftermath opted for multiplying the damage rather than just adding or removing a die.  There are similarities, but 5d6x2 is a lot more than 5d6+1die for battleaxe.  This isn't a judgement on which works better mind you, Pendragon is a good system for everything except missile weapons.

On 4/21/2017 at 7:20 AM, olskool said:

I always wanted to match weapons to a Kinetic Energy Chart to see just how much damage they really would do.  I'd start with the Ethical Hunting Power Chart developed for Projectile Weapons like Atlatls, Bows, and Crossbows but expand it to include hand weapons.  The Chart is fairly simple and is based on the Kinetic Energy needed to "cleanly harvest" a given type of animal.  This would give a good "reference point" for how damaging a weapon would be.  The Chart looks like this:

25 ft-lbs or Less = Smaller Game like Coyotes and Varmints.

25 ft-lbs to 41 ft-lbs = Medium Game like Deer, Antelope, (and Humans fall here too).

42 ft-lbs to 65 ft-lbs = Large Game like Black Bear, Elk or Moose.

65 ft-lbs to 85 ft-lbs = Big Game like Cape Buffalo, and Grizzly Bear. 

85 ft-lbs + = Very Dangerous Game such as Hippos or Rhinos.

This is a good idea with a useful basis in factual info.  I would enjoy a link to this information if possible and not too hard to provide.

On 4/21/2017 at 7:20 AM, olskool said:

I think it would be interesting to set up a chart with Kinetic Energies from 1 ft-lb up to 100 ft-lb and match the entries on this chart to various damage dice.  You would then "compute" the Kinetic Energy for hand weapons based on the "swing speed" of 20 m/sec that many weapons experts claim as a standard velocity for HTH weapons.  This velocity would equate to a 10 STR.

An interesting reference point and idea.  I would want to closely investigate how they arrived at the figure of 20m/sec, as I suspect many of the individuals may be stronger than the notional RQ "10 STR average".  Does human muscle power follow a nice bell curve distribution over individuals in a population like 3d6?  I honestly don't know.  The statistician in me feels uncomfortable but intrigued.

On 4/21/2017 at 7:20 AM, olskool said:

I would bet that a 5 STR would still have about 75% of the standard velocity (or around 15m/sec of velocity) and a 20 STR would have a velocity of around 30 m/sec.  This would be an interesting start to a "reality-based" damage chart.  You can even fold firearms into the chart by dividing their Energy by 20 and comparing them to the chart.  Someday I might even get the time to set this chart up.  

I love the ideas you have put forwards.  It is this sort of attention to detail that will make any and possibly all games better.  This sort of reference info could change everything.

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

I could see value in that.  It does complicate combat, but not much.

I'd be tempted to swipe from Flashing Blades too. one neat little rule that RPG had was that you always picked a location to aim for, and then rolled the hit location twice. You hit the one that was closest to where you aimed at. It was a really simple way of handling hit locations and called shots. Very realistic too. 

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is a pretty good idea, certainly simple.

Yeah. I was working on an RPG based entirely around that concept. In fact, I tapped into it when I did some stuff for BRP SPACE. But the old Bushido RPG did something similar. 

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Is it though ?  I thought Pendragon gives you base damage die, perhaps +/- 1 die based on weapon, and more if it is a couched lance.  Aftermath opted for multiplying the damage rather than just adding or removing a die.  There are similarities, but 5d6x2 is a lot more than 5d6+1die for battleaxe.  This isn't a judgement on which works better mind you, Pendragon is a good system for everything except missile weapons.

Pendragon does give weapon mods as +/- a die (more or less). But with the way damage works in RQ/Pendragon an extra D6 is a damage multiplier. Remember, the damage bonus table works on the concept of +16 points of STR and/or SIZ is worth +1D6. Now since the SIZ table is based on x2 mass = +8 SIZ then what we are really doing is adding +1D6 every time we multiply the mass (or actually the force) by a factor of 4. 

 

[Atgxtg]

On 4/20/2017 at 5:20 PM, olskool said:

I always wanted to match weapons to a Kinetic Energy Chart to see just how much damage they really would do.  I'd start with the Ethical Hunting Power Chart developed for Projectile Weapons like Atlatls, Bows, and Crossbows but expand it to include hand weapons.  The Chart is fairly simple and is based on the Kinetic Energy needed to "cleanly harvest" a given type of animal.  This would give a good "reference point" for how damaging a weapon would be.

The thing is, the damages in the game are not based directly on energy. This has come up a few times in the past with the firearm damages. So if you did something up based on energy it would mean redoing the entire damage scale. 

Realistically, it's a bit more complicated since a high energy attack that covers a large area probably won't penetrate as deep and do only superficial damage. 

 

Plus, with the way living organisms, and the RQ game mechanics work, damage isn't linear. That is, while the bullet from a 5.56mm rifle might have three to four times the energy of one fired from a  9mm pistol, it isn't three to four times as lethal.

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd be tempted to swipe from Flashing Blades too. one neat little rule that RPG had was that you always picked a location to aim for, and then rolled the hit location twice. You hit the one that was closest to where you aimed at. It was a really simple way of handling hit locations and called shots. Very realistic too. 

Yeah, that works. Not a bad rule.

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Pendragon does give weapon mods as +/- a die (more or less). But with the way damage works in RQ/Pendragon an extra D6 is a damage multiplier. Remember, the damage bonus table works on the concept of +16 points of STR and/or SIZ is worth +1D6. Now since the SIZ table is based on x2 mass = +8 SIZ then what we are really doing is adding +1D6 every time we multiply the mass (or actually the force) by a factor of 4. 

Okay, now I get what you mean.  You are working on multiplying character mass for damage not the weapons, .  It is a very different game mechanic I think to what Aftermath did.  I take your point though.

[Yelm's Light]

On 4/23/2017 at 1:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

I'd be tempted to swipe from Flashing Blades too. one neat little rule that RPG had was that you always picked a location to aim for, and then rolled the hit location twice. You hit the one that was closest to where you aimed at. It was a really simple way of handling hit locations and called shots. Very realistic too.

Except that it doesn't take into account enemy action.  A deflection could alter hit location greatly.

[Atgxtg]

14 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Except that it doesn't take into account enemy action.  A deflection could alter hit location greatly.

And it still can. You could aim for the Head (20) and still hit someone in the right foot (1) if you rolled two 1s on the hit location. Your just more likely to hit where you are aiming at or somewhere close to it-especially if you are aiming for a center body location such as chest or abdomen.

[olskool]

On 4/23/2017 at 4:39 PM, Atgxtg said:

The thing is, the damages in the game are not based directly on energy. This has come up a few times in the past with the firearm damages. So if you did something up based on energy it would mean redoing the entire damage scale. 

Realistically, it's a bit more complicated since a high energy attack that covers a large area probably won't penetrate as deep and do only superficial damage. 

 

Plus, with the way living organisms, and the RQ game mechanics work, damage isn't linear. That is, while the bullet from a 5.56mm rifle might have three to four times the energy of one fired from a  9mm pistol, it isn't three to four times as lethal.

 

That's why Energy (either Kinetic or Momentum based) is only step one in the equation.  The most important step is modifying Energy by a weapon's CROSS-SECTIONAL DENSITY. What's the difference between being hit by a baseball and an arrow when both have the exact same energy?  Penetration.  Penetration is defined as a FORCE having ENERGY, VELOCITY, and A VECTOR (direction of movement) MEASURED OVER A UNIT OF TIME.  Penetration is RESISTED by the material that is contacted/penetrated.  How MUCH resistance that material puts up is defined by the Penetrator's Cross-Sectional Density.  A baseball has a very low 0.039 CSD.  An arrow has a MUCH better 0.7 or 0.8 CSD.  A bullet will vary but Cross-Sectional Density IS the reason an arrow will penetrate an object that a bullet won't.  Additionally, some Penetrators (arrows, swords, and spears) will gain a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE for their cutting edge.  The catch to putting together an "Energy Map" involving weapons is figuring out how much of an effect Cross-Sectional Density and Mechanical Advantage will have on energy.  Thus, the formula is MUCH MORE COMPLEX than just comparing Energy.  While I have some significant experience with Ballistics, things get far more complicated when other weapons are added.  This is why I have not done such a table.  It exceeds my Physics training and I have no idea how to even consider designing a mechanical advantage formula.  CSD could be a fairly straight-forward modifier, but how does one extrapolate the effect of a cutting edge? 

[olskool]

On 4/23/2017 at 10:46 AM, Darius West said:

I could see value in that.  It does complicate combat, but not much.

This is a pretty good idea, certainly simple.

Is it though ?  I thought Pendragon gives you base damage die, perhaps +/- 1 die based on weapon, and more if it is a couched lance.  Aftermath opted for multiplying the damage rather than just adding or removing a die.  There are similarities, but 5d6x2 is a lot more than 5d6+1die for battleaxe.  This isn't a judgement on which works better mind you, Pendragon is a good system for everything except missile weapons.

This is a good idea with a useful basis in factual info.  I would enjoy a link to this information if possible and not too hard to provide.

An interesting reference point and idea.  I would want to closely investigate how they arrived at the figure of 20m/sec, as I suspect many of the individuals may be stronger than the notional RQ "10 STR average".  Does human muscle power follow a nice bell curve distribution over individuals in a population like 3d6?  I honestly don't know.  The statistician in me feels uncomfortable but intrigued.

I love the ideas you have put forwards.  It is this sort of attention to detail that will make any and possibly all games better.  This sort of reference info could change everything.

 

The Energy Levels I quoted can be found at any Archery Hunting website.  They are internationally established standards for lethality.  Go on a hunt that's guided, and your guide will quote them to you.   The speeds I quoted for melee weapons come from a few "less exact" sources.  The first source is the old Spike TV series "Deadliest Warrior."  They used radar to record weapon speeds for their simulations.  Most weapons weighing between 1kg and 1.5kg (a very average weight range for a large number of melee weapons) move at around 20 m/s.  There was another series called "Fight Science" that also recorded HTH speeds.  Their results were similar.  I have also watched a couple of BBC specials (mostly on NATGEO) that had similar results.  The thing that surprised me is that people of varying "fitness levels" had relatively small variations in weapon speed.  It did not vary by more than around 10 meters/second.  I would have thought that the range would be larger.  Weapon weight was also surprising.  Most weapons fall into the 1kg to 2kg weight range with even huge weapons like Scottish Claymores being only 2.5kg and the largest Zweihanders (that were actually used in combat) or Lucern Hammers only running 3kg.  No one seems to have used the equivalent of a "20lb Sledgehammer" in any great numbers.  

I would like to see a more "reality-based" weapon system, but there are some real challenges to designing a proper formula for them.    

[Atgxtg]

On 4/28/2017 at 8:30 PM, olskool said:

The Energy Levels I quoted can be found at any Archery Hunting website.  They are internationally established standards for lethality.

They might be started for archery, it doesn't work that way with all weapons. It can work in archery because the arrow is pretty much the same. But even with arrows there are things that can make a difference. What type of arrow head, for instance. As far as other weapons go, 85 foot-pounds would make for a very weak pistol round (about a .25 ACP, or .22 Short). Some BB guns can fire rounds with a Muzzle energy of 150 foot pounds but I wouldn't recommend them for hunting Grizzy!

 

 

Quote

 

I would like to see a more "reality-based" weapon system, but there are some real challenges to designing a proper formula for them.    

In that case Go get something written by Greg Porter. He's done several RPGs with game stats based off of real world values. You can check out his website at btrc.net. I think I got a few of his freebies. I'll see if I can find something to send you. 

Oh, and that is exactly the approach I use for my vehicle stats and design rules, and bestiary. Basically I try to base the game stats on real world values and use formulas so that you can just plug the numbers into a spreasheet or database, and it will spit out game stats. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Atgxtg

[SDLeary]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

...at btrc.com

.net. .com is a budding biotech site apparently.

SDLeary