Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 3 - Pelorian

[David Scott]

Pelorian Section discussion!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6492-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-3/

Week 3 errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6432-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-3-errors/

Here's one of the sketches for the Pelorian illustration by Jeff Laubenstein

Here's the original art direction from 2012 (links not checked):

Pelorians Overview

The Pelorians are a proud and ancient civilization of riverine city-states united by a divine emperor descended from the Moon Goddess. They are Bronze Age or Early Iron Age in culture and comparable to the ancient civilizations of Babylon, Assyria, or Achaemaenid Persia (with some trappings from Hellenistic Greece and the Roman Empire thrown in for good measure). Their society is extremely socially stratified and strongly patriarchal, but the Lunar religion offers opportunities for women to hold positions of power and prestige.

The Pelorians are light-skinned (ranging from pale to olive), with brown to blonde hair. Brown and blue eyes are prevalent. Men grow full beards and trim their mustaches. Basic dress consists of a skirt, tunic, jacket, cloak or sleeved robe, and headdress. Clothing is strictly regulated by social class. Commoners have fewer pieces of clothing and the skirt cannot extend below the knee: higher class citizens wear more clothing (and what they have is more ornate) and can wear their skirts and robes longer. Nobles wear long robes and skirts that drag on the floor and must be carried over ground by servants. Headdresses are common for men and women. In some regions, they are embellished with gold and silver coins, Decorative veils and face coverings are common among higher-class women.

Some regions paint themselves with henna, painting runes and other magical symbols on their hands and feet.

Weapons are Bronze Age, and the Pelorians are renowned for their heavy infantry, disciplined spearmen armored with bronze cuirasses and plumed helmets. Peloria is also feared for its disciplined cavalry, armed with bows, lances and curved swords, and effective against both the Pentan nomads and the barbarian nations of the upland hills.

Fig. 1. Dara Happan hoplite. Dara Happa is a rich and broad valley along the Oslir River, densely populated with ancient cities. It has continental climate with hot summers and cold winters. The people are average size for humans and they view themselves as the natural rulers of the world.

Our male Dara Happan hoplite wears a bronze cuirass with gold decorations (like this http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/gr/web-large/DP251338.jpg but with gold decorations) and bronze greaves (perhaps decorated with the faces of protective gods or spirits, like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Bronze_greaves_BM_GR1856.12-26.615.jpg). Underneath his cuirass he wears a red tunic that reaches down between his calves and his knees. Leather pteruges decorated with silver coins hang from his sword belt and protect his groin (http://www.tastenboard.de/uploads/images/cingulum-4). The sword at his left side is curved like a falcata or kopis (http://www.wulflund.com/images_items/greek-falcata-sword_2.jpg) and in an ornate sheathe (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1600/g27bc.jpg). In his hand he carries a spear with a bronze spearhead. His shield is bronze and is decorated with a golden eight pointed star (http://www.theishtar.com/resources/600px-Ishtar-star-symbol.svg.png.opt394x394o0,0s394x394.png).

He has a long blonde beard and trim mustache, but little can be seen of his face, since he wears a bronze helmet in the Corinthian style (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1330/1134340712_520d4ca0a0.jpg). It is decorated with an impressive crest of horsehair, feathers, and plumes (like this http://www.ancientreplicas.com.au/images/st/st_SmallHighCrest.jpg). His helmet and weapons are inlayed with the runes of Fire, Stasis, and Death.

Fig. 2. Orayan Lunar cultist.  Oraya is an eastern province of the Lunar Empire bordering the endless grasslands of Pent. It was settled from the interior of the Lunar Empire a little over a century ago and is home to many diverse religions, mystery cults, and barbarous sects. It has hot summers and colder winters than Dara Happa. The Orayans tend to have brown or black hair, but blonde and even red is not unknown.

Our Orayan Lunar cultist wears ornate loose robes of black and red like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Bersheba_dress.jpg/303px-Bersheba_dress.jpg  and http://www.zawaj.com/weddingways/images/egypt/egyptian_bedouin_woman.jpg. The robes are decorated with jewelry and beads, and marked with the Moon Rune, and with various Lunar Runes from the following site: http://www.etyries.com/moonie/moonrune.htm. Her hands are painted in henna with those runes as well. She carries a curved sickle-knife in her belt (http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/images/midsize/1917.25.27_a.jpg).

She wears an ornate veil decorated with silver coins (such as http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Bersheba_dress.jpg/303px-Bersheba_dress.jpg and http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F0PbGLJkpIw/Tjex65SZShI/AAAAAAAAHhc/_ViWhmo1Xvg/s1600/shopping%252520page%252520-%252520bedouin%252520woman.gif).

 The veil permits sight of her eyes, which are darkly painted with kohl.

Edited July 10, 2017 by David Scott

[Joerg]

I was confused about the "half-citizens" assigned to social standing rather than descent.

Avivath was a street sweeper of noble blood, and quite likely a citizen. Half citizens were originally (under Vuranostrum) a different ethnicity admitted into the Dara Happan cities.

There ought to be down-on-their-luck noble Yelmic families in poverty and unsuitable jobs...

 

It hasn't been made clear how rising among the Lunars rather than the Dara Happans could land you in a class way above your birth station. I don't think that satraps' clans necessarily are Yelmic nobility in origin. I suspect the Eel-ariash to be of Lodrili origin, for instance, and they have managed to achieve nomination as satraps twice.

That said, the Yelmic families are firmly entrenched in the elite of the Lunar Empire. But they have to accept parvenu newcomers as their social equals at the Red Emperor's court and in offices.

 

Most Pelorians never initiate to any deity. Yet they surely expect an afterlife in the Gods World. We know how the Kralori rely on their dragon emperor to lift them to a blissful afterlife. What is the Pelorian method? Pantheon initiation?

[Tcneseis]

It seems flat-roofed houses do not fit very well with the climate of Peloria. Where on Earth are they found where it's rainy?

 

 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Tcneseleis said:

It seems flat-roofed houses do not fit very well with the climate of Peloria. Where on Earth are they found where it's rainy?

I am not so sure that the lowlands experience that much rainfall - they receive most of their water from the runoff from the highlands. About half of the Pelorian bowl practices wet farming, and also many dry farmers use irrigation to water their fields.

With their experience in irrigation, I suppose that the Pelorians will be experts in draining their roofs.

For the wetland dwellers, I expect reed huts similar to those of the Euphrates/Tigris estuary, possibly on reed pontoons in order to float up when the Sea Season floodings swamp everything.

Having seen a documentary on Sri Lanka yesterday, I wouldn't be astonished to see lots of reservoirs and high cisterns for water management throughout Fire Season.

[Jeff]

Here are some notes on precipitation in Peloria that did not make it into the Guide:

 

Furthest is the wettest city of the Pelorian valley, at 34 inches.

Mirin's Cross is 28 inches. Mirin's Cross gets most of its precipitation in Storm Season.

Alkoth is 24 inches (Kiev - the area of the Pripet Marshes). Alkoth is in a convergence zone that gets precipitation both in Fire Season and in Storm Season.

Glamour is 16 inches (Spokane). The presence of the Crater moderates the Northerly winds, but also means Glamour is in a rain shadow.

Raibanth is 14 inches. The presence of the Yelm cult definitely increases the number of cloudless days.  Almost all of the precipitation falls in Fire Season, when the Pelorians worship Entekos the Rain Goddess and Dendara the Good Wife.

Yuthuppa is 18 inches. Almost all of the precipitation falls in Fire Season.

Elz Ast is 22 inches. Elz Ast is on the White Sea. Elz Ast is an awful place - the Pelorian version of Buffalo. Cold and miserable in winter even with the Kalikos Expedition.

Further west in Talastar and Brolia, you get more rain (maybe as much as 40 inches in Hazard Fort and Dorastor), because of the Rockwoods.

Further east it gets drier. The Arcos valley likely gets around 16 to 20 inches or so, and the Pentan grasslands get even less (probably around 12 to 14 inches). Yes, that means Pent is drier than Prax, but Prax gets its rain in huge useless downpours. And has the Desert Winds.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

flat-roofed houses

I must of missed this. Where's the reference?

[jrutila]

This section was of great interest to me personally as I am planning to run the starting scenario from the "Red Sun Rising" book from D101 Games. This section paints a picture of ancient, patriarchal and conservative culture that is now influenced by Lunar religion. That is in line with the scenario. Apparently the "Lunarization" of Peloria went much more peacefully than in Sartar? Is it that the Sun and the Moon are not competing of the control of the same space like the Moon and Air are?
 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Most Pelorians never initiate to any deity. Yet they surely expect an afterlife in the Gods World. We know how the Kralori rely on their dragon emperor to lift them to a blissful afterlife. What is the Pelorian method? Pantheon initiation?

Maybe they rely on the priests to bless them properly before the final trip. Pelorians still sacrifice to gods in Yelm pantheon. Probably those gods will then speak favorable of the candidate.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Most Pelorians never initiate to any deity.

I found this an interesting note as well.  And the follow-on comment: "People generally depend on others to protect and lead them, both in the mundane and spiritual realms."  It emphasizes either that: 1) there are lots of slaves or workers who aren't permitted to join cults; or 2) it is a time-consuming task to be initiated and follow cult practices and the majority of most people's time needs to be spent growing food.  Some of these folk may have minor Spirit Magics such as charms, but common magical actions and effects will be a lot less common than in Dragon Pass or even Prax.

It would be interesting to learn more about the range of Lodrili practices, though perhaps these might not be overly interesting in game play.

p.42 I like the ceremonial mattock.  There's an interesting wild and disorderly look to the face.

[davecake]

5 hours ago, jrutila said:

Apparently the "Lunarization" of Peloria went much more peacefully than in Sartar? Is it that the Sun and the Moon are not competing of the control of the same space like the Moon and Air are?

There are a number of factors here. One is that it happened a lot longer ago - centuries, while Sartar was within the lifetime of most adults. They've had a lot longer to get used to the Lunars, and there has been a lot of history since then (including the brutal occupation of Sheng Seleris, which makes most people value the Lunars over the mythic Solar connection). There were certainly religiously inspired rebellions at various points in history, but the Lunars suppressed them efficiently.

Another factor is that 'Lunarization' wasn't peaceful at all - there were long military campaigns, including famous magical battles like the First Battle of Chaos and the Four Arrows of Light - but politically, this was Lunars and the traditional Dara Happan Yelm worshippers allied against the Carmanians. 

A third factor is that the Lunar religion is intimately connected with the Solar, and the Lunar Empire carefully observes most traditional forms and allows the traditionalists their due. The Red Emperor is both the Solar and Lunar Emperors. And the Red Goddess was once a 'son' of Yelm. While Orlanth has only ever been an enemy deity for the Yelmic mythology. 

[davecake]

It's very clear how thin the Lunar veneer is. Everything is in terms of urban Dara Happa and rural (and provincial) Lodrilite. 

The division of the Dara Happan upper classes into Witnesses and Officers was new to me (or at least, I don't recall it). 

Law - it says fines are the most common penalty, but presumably non-payment of fines (which is presumably common for the poor) leads to slavery, or at least indentured servitude until the fine is paid?  Or do they go for more physical punishments if a fine isn't paid? 

Deities - interesting how low ranked and unimportant Dendara is, even compared to other female deities. Presumably her major rites are even led by male Enverinus priesthood. 

Also interesting is the description of how rich and varied Lodrilite religion is, considering how little we know about most of it. 

How tall is a typical Lodril 'ten block pyramid'?

[Tcneseis]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

I must of missed this. Where's the reference?

On p. 41, "Housing".

Quote

Lodrilli villagers live in houses made of mud-brick, reeds, or timber, depending on the local resources. Village houses are small and tightly packed together, often forming clusters of adjoined houses with the rooftops used as pathways, and the dwellings accessed by hatches in the ceiling using ladders or stairs.

 

 

 

 

 

[metcalph]

p38 Although the Lod-Plow has been mentioned before, it is described for the first time as a fire-hardened stick.

p39 the term "noblesse oblige" crops up here and immediately invokes unwanted medieval associations.

p39 I may be missing something but by my calculations to make the population table make sense, the 3.9 million Dara Happans also includes the 500K lunars of the Silver Shadow and the People of Dara Ni and Rist (judging by the Satrapal population breakdowns)

p42 Herustana is listed as a patron deity of Yuthuppa.  Elsewhere the Patron is named as Thilla.  It seems the two are synonymous.

p42 An interesting division between the Priests of Yelm who sacrifice for Yelm and the Priests of Envirinus who sacrifice for the Permitted Cults.

p42.  The Lodrili are forbidden to read.

p42.  The description of the many Lodrii cults is interesting but I would have preferred a list of names as examples (ie Turos, Deshlotralas, Gerendetho).

 

 

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Avivath was a street sweeper of noble blood, and quite likely a citizen. Half citizens were originally (under Vuranostrum) a different ethnicity admitted into the Dara Happan cities.

On the other hand, Plentonius could have simply been polishing up Avivath's (and Khordavu's) ancestors.  

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The division of the Dara Happan upper classes into Witnesses and Officers was new to me (or at least, I don't recall it). 

Technically they are "Old Families" discovered by the New Light reforms and mentioned in the Fortunate Succession.  But I suppose the Yelmic aristocracy must have found it very difficult to say Old Families with a straight face and so the phrasing Witnesses and Officers stuck instead.

 

[metcalph]

Just noticed that Antirius is not on the list of Pelorian Deities p41--42.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

On p. 41, "Housing".

I imagined this with sloping roofs and the paths winding between them, and the hatches in the roofs.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Just noticed that Antirius is not on the list of Pelorian Deities p41--42.

Do you think this is an error or deliberate omission of detail?

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Do you think this is an error or deliberate omission of detail?

If I thought it was an error, I would be mentioning it in the error section.  I see further on in the guide that Antirius has a temple in Kesium in First Blessed and Haranshold in Darjiin so it is unlikely that it is a deliberate omission.

My current thinking is to bring about an age-old theory about Antirius' name being derived from Ent-Turos, Right Turos, and have him as one of the many Lodrili cults.  This could still be completely wrong or stark raving bollocks.

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My current thinking is to bring about an age-old theory about Antirius' name being derived from Ent-Turos, Right Turos, and have him as one of the many Lodrili cults.  This could still be completely wrong or stark raving bollocks.

It's as good a theory as any, with this being a good place to bring it up again.

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Antirius' name being derived from Ent-Turos, Right Turos, and have him as one of the many Lodrili cults

Certainly a different take given the usual association of Antirius with Yelmalio/Lightfore. 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

p38 Although the Lod-Plow has been mentioned before, it is described for the first time as a fire-hardened stick.

Ho hum. Fire-hardened wood is appropriate if we look at the Log brotherhood in Entekosiad, but Lodril is also the father of the Lowfires, including the smithy fire.

Quote

p39 the term "noblesse oblige" crops up here and immediately invokes unwanted medieval associations.

Peloria is probably the least problematic in terms of medieval confusion - we're rather stuck with Roman, Macedon and Old Persian parallels.

I agree that it is more a demand for Measured Justice From Above than any sense of altruism or similar. Becoming more divine through appropriate bearing.

Quote

p42 Herustana is listed as a patron deity of Yuthuppa.  Elsewhere the Patron is named as Thilla.  It seems the two are synonymous.

Or rather - Herustana is the mistress of the land within the city confines, as she was of the Ark, while Thilla is the nurturing goddess of the lands around?

Quote

p42 An interesting division between the Priests of Yelm who sacrifice for Yelm and the Priests of Envirinus who sacrifice for the Permitted Cults.

Enverinus - god of the sacrificial fire? We find similar "brothers of Mahome" among the fire husbands of Ernalda's handmaidens in Thunder Rebels.

Quote

p42.  The Lodrili are forbidden to read.

The Lunar way, on the other hand, encourages literacy.

If you include the Pelandan Turos craftmanship, I wonder whether these fall under the Lodrili label, or whether they have a different standing.

Greg's readings from his Lunar novel and passages in the Entekosiad simply used cardinal numbers to designate the social rank of a Pelorian person.

Quote

p42.  The description of the many Lodrii cults is interesting but I would have preferred a list of names as examples (ie Turos, Deshlotralas, Gerendetho).

Agreed. Especially with the differentiations of both Lodril and Turos, through sons or aspects, or even daughters (as in the Ten Sons and Servants plus Mohenjar, displayed on the Gods Wall).

The treatment of the gods is perhaps the weakest aspect of the Guide. Sure, the companion volume was planned then, and probably still is planned. Lots of names are dropped, with less information than makes a very short Prosopaedia entry. One could make an index of deities mentioned in the Guide and get quite interesting information out of that.

The sections we are discussing this week and last week are only portrayals of the over-cultures, of course. We could create another companion volume just by providing similarly sized discussion of smaller cultures, or separate aspects of dominant cultures like the various Earth Walker/Fire Within/Worker deities that have to do with Lodril.

 

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My current thinking is to bring about an age-old theory about Antirius' name being derived from Ent-Turos, Right Turos, and have him as one of the many Lodrili cults.  This could still be completely wrong or stark raving bollocks.

Nice one. A derivation from Idovanus would be somewhat welcome, too. 

Lightfore (now that Harald mentioned him) fulfills very much the role of the silver moon in many of our world's dualist sky entities - the weaker night light chasing the sun (if you neglect the phases).

I wonder whether Lightfore is (or used to be) sufficiently luminous to provide as much light as a half moon in our world.

I don't really see either Antirius or Yelmalio prancing around the Sky Dome. A good Dara Happan city (or metropolis) is supposed to have a radiant orb overhead, guarding the city and providing some local light.

Antirius brings me to two possible Indo-Germanic roots - "ante", as in "before", or "antara", perhaps the only Sanskrit term I know, "against" or "opposed, from below" (in Organic Chemistry, at least - the root is related to Greek "anti", I guess) .

 

On the matter of Yelmic nobility down on their luck: I won't put any convenient fiction past Plentonius when it comes to glorify Khordavu (like Khordavu's Division of the World after Argentium Thri'ile), but the "nobility in ignoble occupations" has significant story and background potential.

[metcalph]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Lightfore (now that Harald mentioned him) fulfills very much the role of the silver moon in many of our world's dualist sky entities - the weaker night light chasing the sun (if you neglect the phases).

I really see Lightfore as the equivalent of the RW Jupiter (Shargash/Mars, Lokarnos/Saturn, Mastakos/Mercury etc) rather than an actual moon.  If the Sun is the physical body of Yelm then Lightfore is the Spiritual Body interacting visibly with the Celestial Powers.  Whether Antirius is Lightfore is, I feel, the wrong question to pose as it implies that he is not the Sun.  IMO Antirius is both the God of the Sun and the planet Lightfore.  The same is true of Kargzant, Elmal and Yelmalio.  But Antirius is not Yelmalio nor is he Yelm or Kargzant (unless you are one of those Many Suns lunatics).

Antirius is not Yelm as he is not the Sun of the Golden Age.  He is a Sun of the Storm Age.  He is more fiery than Yelmalio (He can cast Sunspears) . There's a Pelandan belief described in the Entekosiad in which the sun is seen as the glowing tip of the Creator's/Idovanus' firestick and that is how Antirius was originally seen as.  Although Antirius is more fiery than Yelmalio, he is weaker than Yelmalio  Yelmalio is the undying light that persists.  Antirius starts strong, dims and dies out.  Elmal is a storm king's thrall etc.

I think that as the power of Yelm has waxed, the importance of Antirius has declined.  That's why I feel he is one of Lodril's cults.  When Antirius was downgraded from being the Protector of Emperors to a face of Lodril is unclear but I think it was a Lunar revelation that was readily accepted by the Dara Happans because it allowed them to downgrade a solar cult they saw as fit only for bumpkins.

 

 

 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I really see Lightfore as the equivalent of the RW Jupiter (Shargash/Mars, Lokarnos/Saturn, Mastakos/Mercury etc) rather than an actual moon.  

Not so much as a moon as in "lunar, cyclical", but as in "brightest light of the night sky". Tolat is reddish = less luminous, and Rufelza is more an absence of darkness than a light.

Mastakos/Mercury and Entekos/Venus?

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

If the Sun is the physical body of Yelm then Lightfore is the Spiritual Body interacting visibly with the Celestial Powers.  Whether Antirius is Lightfore is, I feel, the wrong question to pose as it implies that he is not the Sun.  IMO Antirius is both the God of the Sun and the planet Lightfore.  The same is true of Kargzant, Elmal and Yelmalio.  But Antirius is not Yelmalio nor is he Yelm or Kargzant (unless you are one of those Many Suns lunatics).

Lightfore might be the most coveted piece of stellar real estate. Dayzatar went after him when he disappeared. Lightfore traces the journeys of the Young God (Yelm, Brightface) through the Night Sky. Now you tie him to the low brother Lodril (or at least one of his aspects) as well.

Sedenya and Shargash are notably absent from this list. 

Kargzant and Antirius both occupying Lightfore leaves the question whether there were two such bodies before the Sun Swirl. But then, this event may have ignored the night sky and affected the day sky only - in which case which of the two did Lightfore trail before?

 

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Antirius is not Yelm as he is not the Sun of the Golden Age.  He is a Sun of the Storm Age.  He is more fiery than Yelmalio (He can cast Sunspears) . There's a Pelandan belief described in the Entekosiad in which the sun is seen as the glowing tip of the Creator's/Idovanus' firestick and that is how Antirius was originally seen as.  Although Antirius is more fiery than Yelmalio, he is weaker than Yelmalio  Yelmalio is the undying light that persists.  Antirius starts strong, dims and dies out.  Elmal is a storm king's thrall etc.

As I said before, there is this Orb of Light Hanging Overhead trope that Antirius, Yelmalio and the protectors of the Dara Happan cities (Alkor, Raibamus etc.) all share, and which is copied by Rufelza, too. Not all of these orbs may be visible to the naked eye.

Another way to view the Hill of Light dichtomy between Yelmalio and Antirius (on his quest alongside Manarlarvus) is that their existences/instances were separated here, much like Elmal and Yelmalio, too.

The firestick is the entirety of the Gods of Light, all three (or four, if you count Arraz/Lux) brothers in one.

Idovanus is not Turos, but Turos might be Idovanus' tool.

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I think that as the power of Yelm has waxed, the importance of Antirius has declined.  That's why I feel he is one of Lodril's cults.  When Antirius was downgraded from being the Protector of Emperors to a face of Lodril is unclear but I think it was a Lunar revelation that was readily accepted by the Dara Happans because it allowed them to downgrade a solar cult they saw as fit only for bumpkins.

Another way to look at this is as integration, dismemberment and ongoing re-integration. We'll discuss this when we come to the Copper Tablets, with the planetary son absorbed by Yelm,

Antirius used to be the solar deity of the second tier of Dara Happan society - too pure for the lower ranks, but just within reach of contact for the Seconds.

Turos in his role separated from fiery mountaintops is indeed a lot less polluted than earthy Lodril. Turos is not a rebel against an order, but the origin of order. He might be the missing Pelorian parallel to Calyz, the Fire of Man, in the Teshnan pantheon. Dara Happan Lodril is too thrifty to be a direct parallel of Solf, but if we separate Turos, the distance is lowered considerably.

[Byll]

P39 "Dara Happan cities have concentric streets joined by radiating main roads leading to the central temple complex" This is great detail. Are the concentric streets still following a square pattern (respecting Yelm's four directions)? Or do they become increasingly circular (8, 16, 32 etc straight line sections)? Are the city walls on a square alignment? 

"Pelorian Society is divided into Noble, Witnesses, Officers, Headmen, Workers and Slaves" This reflects what the Entekosiad says about refugees joining Hurfor/Kargzant's following as "Fiths or even as sixths - Servants or Slaves" 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Byll said:

P39 "Dara Happan cities have concentric streets joined by radiating main roads leading to the central temple complex" This is great detail. Are the concentric streets still following a square pattern (respecting Yelm's four directions)? Or do they become increasingly circular (8, 16, 32 etc straight line sections)? Are the city walls on a square alignment? 

Think spokes on a wheel, or the framework of a yurt, with concentric circular roads and radiating roads. The Dara Happans classify their sky this way, and since the city of Yuthuppa is supposed to reflect the sky framework on the ground, this description captures that celestial layout quite well. (I am not sure whether the stars of the celestial city obey such a pattern, but that may just as well be a reflection of the emperor's court protocol rather than an arrangement of buildings.)

The city wall of Alkoth is a perfect circle of green jade, presumably the armring of Shargash. This means that the size of Alkoth has remained constant throughout the ages.

The walls of Raibanth are broken in three places by the rivers joining here.

Yuthuppa should have a circular wall for the reasons above. Glamour probably has a semicircular wall, with its back to the Crater.