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M Helsdon

Figures for Gloranthan Armies

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Below are my thoughts for war games figures to represent various Central Genertelan cultures. It is far from definitive, and posted here for discussion...

Figures for Gloranthan Armies

The following terrestrial cultures are suggested as sources for Gloranthan army figures.

Note that figures armored in chainmail should be avoided as chainmail is rare.

 

Group

Terrestrial Equivalents

Black Horse Troop

Ridderan

No equivalent

Grazelanders/Pentans

Grazelander

/Pentan

Scythian, Sarmatian

Holy Country

Caladraland

Mycenaean

Esrolians

Minoan, Mycenaean

Esvularings

/God Forgot

Sassanian, Byzantine

Heortland

Mycenaean, Bronze Age North Europeans, Thracian

Islanders

Minoan

Hsunchen

Basmoli

Amerindian, Libyan

Telmori

Amerindian, Libyan

Lunar Empire

Aggar

Thracian

Carmanian

Sassanian, Byzantine, Kushan

Char-un

Sarmatian

Dara Happans

Classical Greek, Assyrian

Darjiini

Assyrian

Doblian

Thracian

Eolian

Bronze Age Northern European

Holay

Gauls, Early Roman

Imther

Romano-British

Pelandan

Assyrian, Classical Greek

Lunar

Early Roman, Classical Greek, Sassanian

Suvarian

Achaemenid Persian

Tarsh

Saxon, Viking, Sassanian

Vanch

Romano-British

Orlanthi

Dark Orlanthi

Hittite, Thracian

Earth Tarsh

Bronze Age North European, Hittite

Humaki Battalion

Early Roman, Gauls, Saxon

Light Orlanthi

Mycenaean, Hittite, Bronze Age North European, Thracian, Saxon, Viking

Old Hendriki

Sword Orlanthi

Uroxi Warband

Bronze Age North European, Viking

Yelmalion

Mycenaean, Hittite, Thracian

Praxians

Agimori

Nubian, Zulu

Bison

No equivalent

Bolo-Lizard

No equivalent

High Llama

No equivalent

Impala

No equivalent

Ostrich

No equivalent

Pol-Joni

Scythian, Sarmatian

Rhino

No equivalent

Sable

No equivalent

Unicorn

Scythian

Zebra

Scythian, Sarmatian

Sun Dome Temples

Militia

Classical Greek

Templar

Macedonian

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Apart from the mounts, I would have thought that early riding plains indians restricted to native resources and a few Spanish imports would be a good match for non-pygmy human Praxians. (Most other Earth rider cultures have fairly good access to smithing, even if metal is somewhat hard to get.) That doesn't mean that I would go for feather ornaments for Praxians any more than for Orlanthi (who love them), but for bone harnesses, wampum chains as ceremonial armor, or similar. Head-dresses of bisons might be available.

No early Arabians for the Lunar Empire? Or possibly Maccabeans?

Suvarians as Achaemenid Persians? Murharzarm's muster has them on foot, wearing linen clothing, wicker shields, javelins and long knives - which I suppose could be gleaned from selecting certain Egyptian troops. From this we proceed to Peltasts from Darjiin and Sylila, which might be present in Seleucid forces.

I wonder whether South and East Asian military might offer more useful miniatures for western or central Genertela, especially cavalry, but possibly also crossbow forces for Westerners.

What about huns, visigoths etc. from the Catalaunian Plains? Too much chainmail in about half the minis, I guess, but might be re-purposed as furs with a bit of clever painting.

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Imther

Romano-British

I always used Anatolian/Hittite figures for my Imtherians/Vanchites.  They both have heavy DH influence and I think this fits much better than ancient Britons.  Spearmen, slingers, axemen.

Like these: http://www.warlordgames.com/new-hittites/

Or: https://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/zagros-taurus-anatolian-highlanders/

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Suvarians as Achaemenid Persians? Murharzarm's muster has them on foot, wearing linen clothing, wicker shields, javelins and long knives - which I suppose could be gleaned from selecting certain Egyptian troops.

The only modern canonical Suvarian regiment is the Graineaters, who carry crescent-shaped wicker shields, wear square bronze pectoral plates and carry six javelins in a quiver and one in-hand. To my mind, this made them similar to Achaemenid infantry. The crescent-shaped shields are an issue, but was used by later Achaemenid takabara peltasts, who probably adopted its use from the Greeks (but seem to have used axes, not javelins)...

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

which might be present in Seleucid forces.

Unfortunately, peltast was one of those terms the meaning of which drifted over time, so Seleucid peltasts probably wouldn't be suitable.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

What about huns, visigoths etc. from the Catalaunian Plains? Too much chainmail in about half the minis, I guess, but might be re-purposed as furs with a bit of clever painting.

To my mind, Scythians and Sarmatians are a closer fit.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Apart from the mounts, I would have thought that early riding plains indians restricted to native resources and a few Spanish imports would be a good match for non-pygmy human Praxians. (Most other Earth rider cultures have fairly good access to smithing, even if metal is somewhat hard to get.) .

The mounts are the issue. Other than the Foot Bison regiment of the Lunar Army, Animal Nomads need their mounts, and I suspect the Foot Bison look more Pelorian than Praxian.

My list is only for Central Genertela, as that's the region I write about. Adding the West (or East) would inflate a project that has already grown too large...

Edited by M Helsdon

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3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I always used Anatolian/Hittite figures for my Imtherians/Vanchites.  They both have heavy DH influence and I think this fits much better than ancient Britons.  Spearmen, slingers, axemen.

Vanch provides the Foot Bison and (derived from one of your articles I believe) I've added the unfortunate New Lolon Foot, plus some Templars.

The first two are both light infantry; the Foot Bison are equipped with spear, javelin, and broadsword, whilst the New Lolon Foot carry spear, javelin, kopis, and round shield.

I was attempting to avoid listing too many as Hittite... but your comment is taken onboard.

For Imther, no regiments are listed in the Army List, so I didn't include them, because I know nothing of their armament and armor other than there's a Sun Dome there. (Hmm, need to add that to my Army List...)

Jeff's Army List: http://www.glorantha.com/lunar-army-list/

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

You could also include Sea Peoples among the Esrolians and Islanders:  https://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/sea-peoples

True.

I've just uploaded the latest version of the document to dropbox - it includes this list plus many more additions, especially about cataphracti and chariots; the Army List has also been color coded, which makes the cultic associations of many regiments immediately apparent...

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Vanch provides the Foot Bison and (derived from one of your articles I believe) I've added the unfortunate New Lolon Foot, plus some Templars.

The first two are both light infantry; the Foot Bison are equipped with spear, javelin, and broadsword, whilst the New Lolon Foot carry spear, javelin, kopis, and round shield.

I was attempting to avoid listing too many as Hittite... but your comment is taken onboard.

For Imther, no regiments are listed in the Army List, so I didn't include them, because I know nothing of their armament and armor other than there's a Sun Dome there. (Hmm, need to add that to my Army List...)

Vanch can be almost any mix of units derived from Orlanthi, DH, Lunar-influence, Praxian-influence sans beasts, etc.  The original Zarkosite slingers were from this area too (hence Anatolian slingers fit well).

Imther's had Orlanthi refugees over the centuries (e.g. those escaping the EWF, the Dragonkill, the horse nomads, etc.) plus has their own ancient Sun Dome to bring in varied spearmen.  Given the mountains, slings, javelins, spears, etc. all work well and axes based on the hilly woodlands.  I always thought the roughness of Anatolia translated well.

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58 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Vanch can be almost any mix of units derived from Orlanthi, DH, Lunar-influence, Praxian-influence sans beasts, etc.  The original Zarkosite slingers were from this area too (hence Anatolian slingers fit well).

 

True - my list covers only the Provincial Army.

58 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Imther's had Orlanthi refugees over the centuries (e.g. those escaping the EWF, the Dragonkill, the horse nomads, etc.) plus has their own ancient Sun Dome to bring in varied spearmen.  Given the mountains, slings, javelins, spears, etc. all work well and axes based on the hilly woodlands.  I always thought the roughness of Anatolia translated well.

It does. From Jeff's listing, Imther contributes nothing to the Provincial Army.

I've probably made a mistake in just considering formal regiments.

My assessment of the Pelorian 'Barbarian Belt':

 

Region

Military Tradition

Aggar

Orlanthi, Templars, Hsunchen

Anadiki

Orlanthi

Balazar

Skirmishers

Bilini

Orlanthi

Brolia

Orlanthi skirmishers, Hsunchen

Charg

Orlanthi

Holay

Orlanthi, Templars, Pelorian

Imther

Orlanthi, Templars

Jarst

Skirmishers, Templars

Skanthi

Orlanthi

Talastar

Orlanthi – Dara Happan arms & armor

Tarsh

Orlanthi, Pelorian, Templars

Vanch

Orlanthi, Skirmishers, Templars

Hsunchen: See Hsunchen Warfare.

Orlanthi: See Orlanthi Warfare.

Pelorian: Regiments of cavalry and infantry.

Skirmishers: Light infantry.

Templars: Sun Dome Temple soldiers.

Bold: denotes Provincial kingdoms of the Lunar Empire.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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Ridderans is HW terminology and is based on a view of Ethilrist that the Guide has abandoned.  The Riders are described in the Guide as follows:

Quote

These warriors (male and female) wear coats of dark
scale (hardened leather or bronze). They decorate
their helmets (some of which have “beard-masks”)
with red feathers or red horsetails.
The Black Horse Troop carries long spears which
they hold with both hands when charging. They carry
bronze leaf-shaped swords or bronze axes for close
combat. They are a grim, fatalistic troop, not the least
because of the demonic horses they ride.

Guide p186

As for the origins of the Riders

Quote

If it were
not for Ethilrist, we would be outlaws or stickpickers.
We are cast-offs who have been given a second
chance. We used to be Orlanthi, Grazer, Sun Domer,
and Tarshites, even Uz. Now we are members of the
Black Horse Troop

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes p257

 

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13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Ridderans is HW terminology and is based on a view of Ethilrist that the Guide has abandoned.  

Or the term isn't mentioned - but appears in HeroQuest, Sartar Companion, so is still current. There are, however, no figures I am aware of suitable for demon horses.

I've ignored the Hero Wars books, for various reasons, but treat HeroQuest, RuneQuest as reliable.

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Latest version...

Figures for Gloranthan Armies

The following terrestrial cultures are suggested as sources for Gloranthan army figures.

Note that figures armored in chainmail should be avoided as chainmail is rare.

 

Group

Terrestrial Equivalents

Black Horse Troop

Ridderan

No equivalent

Grazelanders/Pentans

Grazelander

/Pentan

Scythian, Sarmatian

Holy Country

Caladraland

Mycenaean

Esrolians

Minoan, Mycenaean

Esvularings

/God Forgot

Sassanian, Byzantine

Heortland

Mycenaean, Bronze Age North Europeans, Thracian

Islanders

Minoan, Sea Peoples, Retairius (gladiator)

Hsunchen

Basmoli

Amerindian, Libyan

Telmori

Amerindian, Libyan

Lunar Empire

Aggar

Thracian, Samnite

Carmanian

Sassanian, Byzantine, Kushan

Char-un

Sarmatian

Dara Happans

Classical Greek, Assyrian

Darjiini

Assyrian

Doblian

Thracian

Eolian

Bronze Age Northern European, Balearic Slingers

Holay

Gauls, Early Roman

Imther

Hittite

Pelandan

Assyrian, Classical Greek

Lunar

Early Roman, Samnite, Classical Greek, Sassanian

Suvarian

Thracian, Samnite

Tarsh

Saxon, Viking, Sassanian

Vanch

Celtiberians, Samnite

Orlanthi

Dark Orlanthi

Hittite, Thracian

Earth Tarsh

Bronze Age North European, Hittite

Humaki Battalion

Early Roman, Gauls, Saxon

Light Orlanthi

Mycenaean, Hittite, Bronze Age North European, Samnite, Thracian, Saxon, Viking

Old Hendriki

Sword Orlanthi

Uroxi Warband

Bronze Age North European, Viking

Yelmalion

Mycenaean, Hittite, Thracian

Praxians

Agimori

Nubian, Zulu

Bison

No equivalent

Bolo-Lizard

No equivalent

High Llama

No equivalent

Impala

No equivalent

Ostrich

No equivalent

Pol-Joni

Scythian, Sarmatian

Rhino

No equivalent

Sable

No equivalent

Unicorn

Scythian

Zebra

Scythian, Sarmatian

Sun Dome Temples

Militia

Classical Greek

Templar

Macedonian

 

 

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Not everything is bathwater in the Hero Wars books, but there is some to be found in the Stafford Library books (and in older manuscripts). Still, the Guide has been written in a mode of conservation of concepts.

The Middle Sea Empire still has a lof of "church" and "congregation" going on. I wonder how the current view of Malkionism as philosophical schools rather than chain of veneration (powering officiating wizards magically) is - neither Western Culture nor the relevant regional descriptions say anything about attending "services" or other forms of mandatory readings and donation of magic.

(BTW, I just downloaded my Gods War pdf package in the hope that the Middle Sea Empire pdf would be searchable. No such luck - a weird encoding seems to prevent any text search except for the cover and a few paragraphs - try searching for any of the emperors' names. Must be the curse of the God Learners.)

Liturgists appear to be part of the bathwater, and the blessings from scripture as well. Weird subcult names as carriers of a heroquesting role still appear to be a thing, though. The Eleven Lights suggest quite a few of these.

 

On the subject of unsuitable mounts - how much modification is deemed acceptable? Skeletal horses are available, and somewhat horse-like carnivorous heads might be found, too, e.g. in hydras. Horse armor might make up for lacking ferociousness in normal horses.

Praxian mounts are harder to find. Boars are available as steeds, and the old (I think Ral Partha) hobgoblins have facial features suitable for Tusk Riders. Insect-riding pygmies (Wasp Nest) or trollkin are a real challenge.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not everything is bathwater in the Hero Wars books

Some material has remained canonical, but on the whole, especially regarding warfare, they are not useful.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Praxian mounts are harder to find.

Bronze Age miniatures (via Fenris Games in the UK), and Foundry have a number (Terror Bird, boar, oxen, rhino, zebra), and a number of other manufacturers have candidate beasts, but I am concentrating on sources that don't require any conversion, beyond the color scheme.

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14 hours ago, Joerg said:

(BTW, I just downloaded my Gods War pdf package in the hope that the Middle Sea Empire pdf would be searchable. No such luck - a weird encoding seems to prevent any text search except for the cover and a few paragraphs - try searching for any of the emperors' names. Must be the curse of the God Learners.)

I see my Middle Sea Empire pdf suffers from the same condition.

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14 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Esrolians

Minoan, Mycenaean

I forgot to note that I also like Etruscans and other earlier Italian hill tribes for Esrolians.

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8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I forgot to note that I also like Etruscans and other earlier Italian hill tribes for Esrolians.

True, though it very much depends on the figure - as many tend to have a hoplite panoply and equipment.

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On 31/07/2017 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

(BTW, I just downloaded my Gods War pdf package in the hope that the Middle Sea Empire pdf would be searchable. No such luck - a weird encoding seems to prevent any text search except for the cover and a few paragraphs - try searching for any of the emperors' names. Must be the curse of the God Learners.)

@Rick Meints Any chance of fixing this easily, please? Or would it be a big job?

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On 31/07/2017 at 0:35 PM, KeithN said:

Does anyone else use Plastic soldier review http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=918, as a resource for this sort of thing? 

 

I think most people prefer the 25 - 28mm size.... so may i politley suggest

http://28mmreview.blogspot.co.uk/p/dir.html

If martin doesn't think its gazumping his idea I may dig into this a little more.

 

Edited by Jon Hunter

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Persians, so many good Persian miniatures out there, distinct look and feel and there shields have such a hint of moon about there shape?

Do they  pass as Carmanian?

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4 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

If martin doesn't think its gazumping his idea I may dig into this a little more.

Gazump away. I've added some of the suggestions to my list.

15 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Persians, so many good Persian miniatures out there, distinct look and feel and there shields have such a hint of moon about there shape?

Do they  pass as Carmanian?

I suspect it depends which Persians. Seleucid, Parthian, and Sassanid heavy and light cavalry certainly. Infantry... if Pelandan then Classical Greek might be a better match.

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23 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

oh juts these guys ...........  

The peasants would be useful for almost any skirmishers, from Orlanthi cottars to Zarkosings.

In attempting to gather together information about Carmanian armies...

Carmanian cavalry is divided into heavily armed and armored cataphracti and lightly armored horse archers. The karmanoi and hazars fought as cataphracti, a form of armored heavy cavalry with both the rider and steed ideally draped from head to toe in bronze armor. Traditionally, these were supported by city hoplites, most notably the Pelandans of the Oronin river valley, and by local levies, mercenaries, and foreigners.

Carmanian infantry included the heavy infantry of the Steel Sword Legion and other still extant regiments.

That reference to hoplites is because...

The Pelandans were the first to utilize phalanx warfare.

In ancient times the hero Daxdarius made an alliance with the Third Eye Blue people and gained bronze armor, helmets and swords. The heavy infantry hoplites are recruited from the Daxdarian warrior caste.

The Steel Sword Legion could be represented by early Romans, given their (dwarf-made) equipment: Iron broadsword, throwing spear, rectangular tower shield

Edited by M Helsdon
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