Missing weapons

[Zozotroll]

I hope to learn something, not make more waves.

 

I understand the Halbard i a midevil weapon, so it doesnt belong in Glorantha.  But what about the pole axe?  Or the bastard sword?  And by pole axe I dont mean the middle ages polearm, but very long axes, such as the dane axe.  Admitted it is a bit later than bronze, but is in the early iron age.  Now we might be OK losing those, only we keep the, great sword, and the rapier.  I thought that with bronze there where no great swords.  And I am sure no bronze rapiers.  

 

Yes I know my game play it the way I want.  No problem with that, I will add Martini-Henrys if I think the the game will be better for it.  But I would like both the thought behind it, and maybe some history I dont know.

 

Many thanks for any imparted wisdom or knowledge. 

[metcalph]

28 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

I understand the Halbard i a midevil weapon, so it doesnt belong in Glorantha.  But what about the pole axe?  Or the bastard sword?  And by pole axe I dont mean the middle ages polearm, but very long axes, such as the dane axe.  Admitted it is a bit later than bronze, but is in the early iron age.  Now we might be OK losing those, only we keep the, great sword, and the rapier.  I thought that with bronze there where no great swords.  And I am sure no bronze rapiers.  

There is the Dagger-Axe which is up to 2 metres long and two handed as well as the Great Axe (RQG p208 and 210)

[Jeff]

The closest thing to a pole arm is the dagger-axe, which was a Chinese Bronze Age weapon: 

 

The Bronze Age rapier was a long thrusting sword - the Gloranthan version is a bit longer than those commonly found in Bronze Age Europe, but the same basic idea:

 

Anyways that's what we included.

[Jason D]

1 hour ago, Zozotroll said:

I hope to learn something, not make more waves.

We are happy to answer questions, but don't take a lack of an answer as disinterest! 

 

1 hour ago, Zozotroll said:

I understand the Halbard i a midevil weapon, so it doesnt belong in Glorantha.  But what about the pole axe?  And by pole axe I dont mean the middle ages polearm, but very long axes, such as the dane axe.  Admitted it is a bit later than bronze, but is in the early iron age. 

See page 208 for the stats of a great axe, and page 210 for its description. Based on the description one think of it as a labyrs, a sagaris, or something like the Dane axe. 

 

1 hour ago, Zozotroll said:

Or the bastard sword? 

The bastard sword is pretty much a 15th-16th century weapon, which feels somewhat out of place in Glorantha. It may be introduced in a later sourcebook as a regional weapon, or it might show up in the Gamemaster Sourcebook in an expanded equipment table. 

 

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

The bastard sword is pretty much a 15th-16th century weapon, which feels somewhat out of place in Glorantha. It may be introduced in a later sourcebook as a regional weapon, or it might show up in the Gamemaster Sourcebook in an expanded equipment table. 

 

The late bronze age Chinese had long bronze swords. If there are bronze greatswords and broadswords in Glorantha, why not have a sword whose size is between those swords?

[Brootse]

Speaking of Chinese and Medieval weapons, what do the Gloranthan crossbows look like? Are they like the Medieval European crossbows that had short and stiff bows with short powerstrokes, or like the Bronze Age Chinese crossbows that had longer bows and powerstrokes? Or are they perhaps like Greek bellybows?

Medieval European crossbow

 

Bronze Age Chinese crossbow

 

Greek bellybow

 

Some of the heavier Chinese crossbows used winches, but many were loaded without tools, by sitting down and using legs:

 

Some were even loaded by multiple people:

 

[metcalph]

A teshnan crossbow is shown in the Guide p437

So is a Fonritan One (p565)

No idea what a Malkioni Crossbow looks like.

[Brootse]

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A teshnan crossbow is shown in the Guide p437

So is a Fonritan One (p565)

No idea what a Malkioni Crossbow looks like.

Thanks! I had forgotten about that amazon crossbow pic, and hadn't looked close enough at the Fonritan pic. Now that amazon crossbow looks very much like a chu-ko-nu, so I take it that they exist, even if they haven't been described in the rules (yet). The Mostali repeating crossbow seems to be a different weapon.

Chu-ko-nu

Edited October 11, 2018 by Brootse

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

The late bronze age Chinese had long bronze swords. If there are bronze greatswords and broadswords in Glorantha, why not have a sword whose size is between those swords?

I can think of a few reasons. First off you don't have the same historical reason for the Bastard Sword in Glorantha that you had in Europe, namely to get through the progressively better armor. Secondly, there's been some doubt recently as to how prominent and effective the bastard sword was. Some view it as being inferior to either a greatsword  (to short, light and not as effective)or a broadsword (to big, heave, and not as easy to wield).

But earlier versions of RQ had Bastard Swords, so we must assume that their removal probably has to do with a shift in how Glorantha is viewed.  Either that or the effect of some heroquest. I believe the former, but the latter would be a nice surprise. 

 

[Brootse]

Just now, Atgxtg said:

I can think of a few reasons. First off you don't have the same historical reason for the Bastard Sword in Glorantha that you had in Europe, namely to get through the progressively better armor. Secondly, there's been some doubt recently as to how prominent and effective the bastard sword was. Some view it as being inferior to either a greatsword  (to short, light and not as effective)or a broadsword (to big, heave, and not as easy to wield).

But earlier versions of RQ had Bastard Swords, so we must assume that their removal probably has to do with a shift in how Glorantha is viewed.  Either that or the effect of some heroquest. I believe the former, but the latter would be a nice surprise. 

 

In my Glorantha I don't call or describe them as 'bastard swords', but as 'long cavalry swords'. Rules-wise they work as the old bastard swords.

[Atgxtg]

7 minutes ago, Brootse said:

In my Glorantha I don't call or describe them as 'bastard swords', but as 'long cavalry swords'. Rules-wise they work as the old bastard swords.

I just call a spatha a spatha. . A bastard sword is probably not a good calvary sword, but rules-wise they are. 

 

oh, historically, one of the other reasons why bronze swords tended to be short was that longer weapons tend to bend and break easier than short ones. Basically the lever effect that makes such weapons hit harder means that they end up taking more damage in the process. 

[Brootse]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

oh, historically, one of the other reasons why bronze swords tended to be short was that longer weapons tend to bend and break easier than short ones. Basically the lever effect that makes such weapons hit harder means that they end up taking more damage in the process. 

Yes. I think that the Chinese might have had better bronze than Europeans, and therefore were able to make longer blades. Or maybe they preferred longer blades, unlike other Bronze age people.

[Atgxtg]

7 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yes. I think that the Chinese might have had better bronze than Europeans, and therefore were able to make longer blades. Or maybe they preferred longer blades, unlike other Bronze age people.

Most Chinese swords would be classified as broadswords in RQ terms. The RQ broadsword has "a blade of about 1 meter long" , and most of the longer Chinese swords seem to be post-bronze.  

Edited October 11, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yes. I think that the Chinese might have had better bronze than Europeans, and therefore were able to make longer blades. Or maybe they preferred longer blades, unlike other Bronze age people.

Just because a given real world culture had or didn't have a weapon doesn't necessary mean that there is a Gloranthan correspondence. There is not a common equivalent of the "bastard sword" in central Genertela in the Third Age. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I just call a spatha a spatha. . A bastard sword is probably not a good calvary sword, but rules-wise they are. 

A bastard sword is basically a long sword with enough of a pommel or handle extension to be able to wield it two-handed. A Katana is a perfectly fine one-handed cavalry sword if gripped normally with the right.

What goes for a katana basically goes for any bronze weapon of similar blade length, althouth the shape of the blade probably will be different.

The question is how good bronze swords are for slashing at all.

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

oh, historically, one of the other reasons why bronze swords tended to be short was that longer weapons tend to bend and break easier than short ones. Basically the lever effect that makes such weapons hit harder means that they end up taking more damage in the process. 

That makes sickle blades with something like a T-profile on the back rather less drastic.

[Atgxtg]

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A bastard sword is basically a long sword with enough of a pommel or handle extension to be able to wield it two-handed. A Katana is a perfectly fine one-handed cavalry sword if gripped normally with the right.

Technically a Katana isn't a perfectly fine one-handed cavlary sword. A Tachi is, but that has to do with how you wear them as opposed to how you wield them. But the Katana is not what one normally associates with thee term bastard sword. Most bastard swords are straight doubled edged swords. Even going with the katana, wielding it one handed pretty much negates all the benefits of a bastard sword. 

Quote

What goes for a katana basically goes for any bronze weapon of similar blade length, althouth the shape of the blade probably will be different.

Not really. For one thing bronze is heavier, for another it is softer, and thirdly it doesn't hold the same edge. For another the shape of the blade is a factor. Calvary sword tend to be curved as it helps when mounted.

 

Quote

The question is how good bronze swords are for slashing at all.

The can be great,  as long as the opponent isn't armored or blocks or parries with something. Flesh  is pretty easy to cut. 

Quote

That makes sickle blades with something like a T-profile on the back rather less drastic.

I think something like a kopis seems effective. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Mechashef]

With bastard swords (and other weapons that can be used one or two handed) should there be    a benefit to using the weapon 2 handed (assuming the adventurer has enough STR & DEX to use it 1 handed)?

 

A spear does more damage wielded 2 handed (which seems to make sense), but a battleaxe  doesn’t do any more damage. 

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Calvary sword tend to be curved as it helps when mounted.

The curve helps with slicing, and straight blades are better at piercing, and both have been used by cavalry for thousands of years. The question which is better, has always been contested.

 

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

With bastard swords (and other weapons that can be used one or two handed) should there be    a benefit to using the weapon 2 handed (assuming the adventurer has enough STR & DEX to use it 1 handed)?

 

A spear does more damage wielded 2 handed (which seems to make sense), but a battleaxe  doesn’t do any more damage. 

In RAW RQG there's no difference except with spears, but my group uses a house rule that two-handed weapons get 1.5 times the normal damage bonus, eg. +d4 rises to +d6 and +d6 rises to +d10.

[Zozotroll]

54 minutes ago, Brootse said:

The curve helps with slicing, and straight blades are better at piercing, and both have been used by cavalry for thousands of years. The question which is better, has always been contested.

 

In RAW RQG there's no difference except with spears, but my group uses a house rule that two-handed weapons get 1.5 times the normal damage bonus, eg. +d4 rises to +d6 and +d6 rises to +d10.

That is a good idea, need to steal that one.

 

I did a paper in college on curve vs straight.  But it was for a class on Napoleon, and it is hard to beat "No sabering! Give point!"

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

In RAW RQG there's no difference except with spears, but my group uses a house rule that two-handed weapons get 1.5 times the normal damage bonus, eg. +d4 rises to +d6 and +d6 rises to +d10.

Very D&D ish, although with RQ you're probably doubling dipping with actual 2H weapons, since they do more damage than their 1H counterparts than in D&D. For instance a greatsword does 2D8 compares to 2D6 in D&D. 

[Brootse]

Just now, Atgxtg said:

Very D&D ish, although with RQ you're probably doubling dipping with actual 2H weapons, since they do more damage than their 1H counterparts than in D&D. For instance a greatsword does 2D8 compares to 2D6 in D&D. 

Hah, I was sure someone would say that, but we had it some years before D&D had

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Zozotroll said:

 hard to beat "No sabering! Give point!"

Ow! Point given. I never knew it was hard to beat with a saber. 

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

The curve helps with slicing, and straight blades are better at piercing, and both have been used by cavalry for thousands of years. The question which is better, has always been contested.

The curve also helps to keep the center of mass close to the rider, which I think is important with longer weapons, especially those made of bronze. 

[womble]

7 hours ago, Brootse said:

The curve helps with slicing, and straight blades are better at piercing, and both have been used by cavalry for thousands of years. The question which is better, has always been contested.

I'm given to understand that the final iteration of the British Cavalry sabre opted for the latter, being mostly like a pistol-grip needle: easy to punch into someone and equally easy to extract as you ride past with the natural turn of the wrist.

[SDLeary]

16 hours ago, Brootse said:

Thanks! I had forgotten about that amazon crossbow pic, and hadn't looked close enough at the Fonritan pic. Now that amazon crossbow looks very much like a chu-ko-nu, so I take it that they exist, even if they haven't been described in the rules (yet). The Mostali repeating crossbow seems to be a different weapon.

 

The Mostali Repeating Crossbow doesn't have a lever to reload, and it magazine is on the bottom, to better aid with aiming. No one knows how the bolts reload!

SDLeary